For Self Defense, what weight, in what caliber is more often preferred?

[stinger 327]

Like I said, this doesn't make sense. If the JHP didn't expand it would act like a FMJ so there would be no difference. A FMJ can do the same damage as a HP that doesn't expand but its not likely to do more. But I digress, this thread was about bullet weight not FMJ vs HPs.

HP's do fail to expand and so in the case of the large .45 round even if it doesn't expand it still makes big holes.

 

[stinger 327]

230 grain .45 TAP, because it works. Any of the calibers and bullet weights listed here will serve their purchase should they find their target.



That! I prefer the .45 because it delivers enough energy to get the job done and I regain my sight picture back fairly quickly. I'm a little more accurate with my revolver, but slower on the follow up shot.



"Knock down" sounds ominously like Hollywood. Since you can't get anymore dead, it's really a matter of adequacy. Under most normal conditions the 230 grain is adequate. I'm sure the 160 grain is as well, in fact it seems to have about 40 ft/lbs more energy at the muzzle. I practice with 230 grains so I shoot 230 grains.



Den Hagg (The Hague) Convention outlawed the use of hollow points in war. They were outlawed because the wounds were difficult to treat and the soldier was likely to die an agonizing death from infection should he survive the gun shot wound itself. They were deemed "inhumane."

There aren't many rounds designed to penetrate one soldier and go into the next. There are some that definitely will. When your muzzle velocity starts at +10K ft/lbs, as opposed to my .45 acp's 475 ft/lbs, you're going through a lot. But, those were never really deemed an "anti-personnel" weapon either.

Rifle rounds will penetrate from person to person.

 

[stinger 327]

Heavy and relatively slow. 230 gr 45 ACP (standard pressure) for me. Too fast and you end up with a round that penetrates too much. Too little and you get a round that doesn't penetrate enough. A heavy, slow round should dump a good amount of energy into the BG. Of course, it'll still overpenetrate (any useful caliber will), but it shoudln't have as much energy at that point.

.45 ACP in FMJ then should provide enough penetration.

 

[788Ham]

.357 mag- 125 gr. JHP 1350 fps
.44 mag- 240 gr XTP- 1200 fps

I have some .300 gr XTP's loaded, but the friggin' flash is too awesome to use in the .44 at night, wouldn't be able to use a follow up shot!

 

[stinger 327]

.357 mag- 125 gr. JHP 1350 fps
.44 mag- 240 gr XTP- 1200 fps

I have some .300 gr XTP's loaded, but the friggin' flash is too awesome to use in the .44 at night, wouldn't be able to use a follow up shot!

You will blind them in the night as well as your own night vision.
The Buffalo Bore in .357 125 grain at 1,700 fps is awesome too.

 

[DasFriek]

230gr +P for me as my 5" all steel 1911 doesn't notice the extra charge.
165gr in .40
124gr +p in 9mm But the +P depends on the size of gun i would be carrying it in.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Generally speaking, military rifle rounds are designed for penetration -- for a long time the United States "war round" was the .30 caliber armor piercing. The logic was that in combat you need to shoot through things, like vehicle bodes, sandbags, berms, logs, concrete walls and so on.

 

[jahwarrior]

for self defense, whatever caliber that can be shot accurately, and has manageable recoil, according to the individual, would be the preferred round, whether it's .22LR or .45ACP.

 

[jon_in_wv]

HP's do fail to expand and so in the case of the large .45 round even if it doesn't expand it still makes big holes.

I don't think anyone here is disputing whether or not bigger bullets make bigger holes than smaller bullets.

 

[jem375]

I use Federal HST's in my 45ACP and 9MM as my carry ammo but am not afraid to carry fmj's in the 45 or 9MM.

 

[Mad Man]

I don't think anyone here is disputing whether or not bigger bullets make bigger holes than smaller bullets.

OK, I'll bite. Not necessarily dispute, but question...

Without citing sources, because I don't have time to dig through boxes of old gun rags that are going to the recycle bin anyway, I recall some tests done with painted bullets shot into ballistic gelatin mixed with sand.

Only the tips of the bullets had paint removed as a result of abrasion with the sand.

The thinking was that the tip of the bullet pushed the tissue simulant out of the way, and most of the bullet slid through the temporary cavity.

That being said, these were probably unscientific tests, without proper controls. But I know of no effort to either replicate or debunk them.

If the theory that "a .45 bullet doesn't necessarily make a .45 hole" is correct, then it would lend some credence to the school of thought that for non-hollowpoint ammo, some type of wadcutter, semi-wadcutter, truncated cone, or other flat-point would be better than a round-nose bullet.

 

[jon_in_wv]

There is always one isn't there.

 

[sm]

Call me old school...

-What was the gun designed to shoot effectively and reliably and shoot to point of aim/point of impact.

I mean the bottom line as far as I am concerned is, the gun has to run, with every magazine it has, for if it does not go bang, it does not matter what anyone else, or everyone else, or team walrus uses.

Next is the gun has to shoot POA/POI. Often times the designers, take this into consideration, in conjunction to what runs the gun the most reliably.

And of course there is what a person can shoot best. The "5-5-5" test is great for determining what a shooter shoots best as far as guns and loadings.

Personally, I like 230 grain, for a 45 ACP. That said, I have shot a slew of 200 grain ( which if memory serves me, is what JMB designed the 1911 to shoot in the first place). Then again, the 185 grain worked best for some folks with arthritis and such.

124 gr for the 9mm, because again if memory serves me, that is what JMB designed the BHP to shoot.

158 gr for .357, and also for .38spl.

I said I was old school, but these have a proven history of working.

Hey, I got wind of a new-fangled dealie called indoor plumbing, is this for real?

*wink*

 

[Maverick223]

FWIW, I prefer 230gr +P in the .45ACP (Ranger T-Series +P), 140gr in the .357Magnum (CorBon JHP), and 124gr +P+ if I had to use a 9mmPara (I personally prefer the .357SIG as it is only slightly larger than the average 9mm pistol). For the .380ACP, which is a bit anemic but easy to carry, I like the 90gr. (CorBon JHP).

 

[Geno]

.45 ACP Winchester, Personal Defense, 230 grain HP.

9mm Winchester, Ranger +P+, 115 grain HP.

Geno

 

[stinger 327]

FWIW, I prefer 230gr +P in the .45ACP (Ranger T-Series +P), 140gr in the .357Magnum (CorBon JHP), and 124gr +P+ if I had to use a 9mmPara (I personally prefer the .357SIG as it is only slightly larger than the average 9mm pistol). For the .380ACP, which is a bit anemic but easy to carry, I like the 90gr. (CorBon JHP).

How about in .32 ACP?

 

[stinger 327]

-What was the gun designed to shoot effectively and reliably and shoot to point of aim/point of impact.

I mean the bottom line as far as I am concerned is, the gun has to run, with every magazine it has, for if it does not go bang, it does not matter what anyone else, or everyone else, or team walrus uses.

Next is the gun has to shoot POA/POI. Often times the designers, take this into consideration, in conjunction to what runs the gun the most reliably.

And of course there is what a person can shoot best. The "5-5-5" test is great for determining what a shooter shoots best as far as guns and loadings.

Personally, I like 230 grain, for a 45 ACP. That said, I have shot a slew of 200 grain ( which if memory serves me, is what JMB designed the 1911 to shoot in the first place). Then again, the 185 grain worked best for some folks with arthritis and such.

124 gr for the 9mm, because again if memory serves me, that is what JMB designed the BHP to shoot.

158 gr for .357, and also for .38spl.

I said I was old school, but these have a proven history of working.

Hey, I got wind of a new-fangled dealie called indoor plumbing, is this for real?

*wink*

If the magazine has to work everytime or ammo misfires then you just eliminated autos. Better stick with the revolvers.

 

[wep45]

148gr DEWC loaded @ 800 - 850 fps

 

[Maverick223]

How about in .32 ACP?

I wouldn't want to be shot with anything, but the .380ACP is as light as I would carry, and it is no more powerful than the best .22LR out of a rifle bbl. By comparison the .32ACP is little more than half that (about the same power level as the average .22LR out of a rifle, or not much better than the best .22LR out of a pistol).

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Without citing sources, because I don't have time to dig through boxes of old gun rags that are going to the recycle bin anyway, I recall some tests done with painted bullets shot into ballistic gelatin mixed with sand.

Only the tips of the bullets had paint removed as a result of abrasion with the sand.

The thinking was that the tip of the bullet pushed the tissue simulant out of the way, and most of the bullet slid through the temporary cavity.

The tests in question were conducted by Vernal Smith with semi-wadcutter and Keith-type cast bullets. The issue was, "Does the shoulder of such a bullet contribute to the permanent cavity."

The typical defensive handgun bullet does not have a square shoulder like a semi-wadcutter or Keith-type cast bullet.

 

[robmcd]

Dr. Gary Roberts is a noted authority on the subject. Just Google DocGKR or look at this http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Since most attacks involve at least 2 assailants, I have a tendancy to carry something that I can place many rounds on target quickly with either strong or weak hand. For me, this usually points to a 9mm high capacity semi-auto.

 

[Maverick223]

Since most attacks involve at least 2 assailants...

How did you arrive at this conclusion? IMO most self defense situations are a 1 on 1 fight, so i'd prefer the biggest thing I can handle effectively (for me the .45ACP is ideal if a little bulky, otherwise a .357Mag. or .357SIG will suffice). HD scenarios may very well differ (and probably do, at least in the case of a home invasion), but I like to let the scattergun sort out those type of problems.

 

[deacon8]

Quote-- "There are many more choices now than just the traditional .45 ACP in 230 grain bullets or .357 in 158 grains."


However, out of the options mentioned, those are the two that I would pick. And for self-defense, I would take Gold Dot HPs for each.

 

[deacon8]

Of course, if I wasn't limited to pistols, I would take a 12 ga with 00 buckshot for self-defense.

 

[stinger 327]

Of course, if I wasn't limited to pistols, I would take a 12 ga with 00 buckshot for self-defense.

Use whatever is available at the time.