For Self Defense, what weight, in what caliber is more often preferred?

[Ben86]

There is a reason cops don't used big bore handguns.

That's odd I thought .40 and .45 counted as big bore.

 

[stinger 327]

Wouldn't a .45 ACP HP at 160 grains traveling at 1,200 fps be more deadly than a .45 ACP HP or FMJ 230 grain bullet traveling at 950 fps? The lighter round has more energy too.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Wouldn't a .45 ACP HP at 160 grains traveling at 1,200 fps be more deadly than a .45 ACP HP or FMJ 230 grain bullet traveling at 950 fps? The lighter round has more energy too

Kinetic energy isn't everything.

As Elmer Keith used to point out, velocity is a variable but mass is a constant.

 

[Ben86]

As said above, energy is not everything. That light, wide bullet would have poor sectional density and therefore probably poor penetration in a jhp (unless maybe its a barnes bullet), not to mention extravagant flash and bang. Accuracy may also suffer, and it will loose a lot of velocity in short barrel being a short bullet.

 

[stinger 327]

As said above, energy is not everything. That light, wide bullet would have poor sectional density and therefore probably poor penetration in a jhp (unless maybe its a barnes bullet), not to mention extravagant flash and bang. Accuracy may also suffer, and it will loose a lot of velocity in short barrel being a short bullet.

The heavier 230 grain will travel alot slower perhaps won't expand due to lower velocity like on a 160 .45 ACP traveling at 1,200 fps.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The heavier 230 grain will travel alot slower perhaps won't expand due to lower velocity like on a 160 .45 ACP traveling at 1,200 fps.

In fact, modern bullets perform very well at design velocity. The standard 230 grain load can be expected to expand to about .70 caliber, and to penetrate a body completely.

 

[Ben86]

stinger, I think you may be over-thinking this caliber weight thing a bit. Just stick with a popular caliber, popular weight from a reputable manufacturer and you shouldn't have a problem with performance.

 

[Maverick223]

The heavier 230 grain will travel alot slower perhaps won't expand due to lower velocity like on a 160 .45 ACP traveling at 1,200 fps.

That hasn't been my experience. In fact, not only do the big 230s penetrate more, but some exhibit excellent expansion. Most .45cal. bullets tend to expand to about .75in. in my experimentation (that seems to hold true for most .45cals. not exclusive to the .45ACP), but when I tested the Ranger T-Series .45ACP +P I was astounded to discover expansion to greater than 1in. in diameter as well as excellent penetration. This may have been a fluke, but in my pistol the "fluke" repeated itself over several rounds of testing (was conducted in water filled jugs). I have adopted this cartridge as my dedicated SD round, and have determined that further examination of competing cartridges is unwarranted...I am perfectly satisfied with what I have (and that is an atypical condition, as I am always seeking something better). YMMV.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If you can make 1" diameter hole clear through your attacker, you've got all the performance you can expect from any round.

 

[Maverick223]

If you can make 1" diameter hole clear through your attacker, you've got all the performance you can expect from any round.

Ding, ding, ding! Hence the decision to quit looking for the newest and best...I think I have already found it.

Don't believe me? Who can blame you?...the difference in surface area of a .70in. & 1in. diameter projectile is DOUBLE (about 0.38 vs 0.78)! Here is a little photographic evidence of my experimentation:



The Ranger T-Series is at left, other bullets from left to right are as follows: 230gr. Federal Hydroshok, 230gr. Remington JHP (separated jacket pictured below), 90gr. Gold Dot .380ACP (for comparison only), and 12ga. Winchester Foster slug (for comparison only).

 

[stinger 327]

Ding, ding, ding! Hence the decision to quit looking for the newest and best...I think I have already found it.

Don't believe me? Who can blame you?...the difference in surface area of a .70in. & 1in. diameter projectile is DOUBLE (about 0.38 vs 0.78)! Here is a little photographic evidence of my experimentation:

View attachment 511519

The Ranger T-Series is at left, other bullets from left to right are as follows: 230gr. Federal Hydroshok, 230gr. Remington JHP (separated jacket pictured below), 90gr. Gold Dot .380ACP (for comparison only), and 12ga. Winchester Foster slug (for comparison only).

What did you shoot these bullets into?

 

[stinger 327]

stinger, I think you may be over-thinking this caliber weight thing a bit. Just stick with a popular caliber, popular weight from a reputable manufacturer and you shouldn't have a problem with performance.

Traditional in this caliber .45 ACP would be 230 grains JHP. So which brand is more reputable Buffalo Bore or Corbon?

 

[Maverick223]

What did you shoot these bullets into?

Triple rows (at least 6 deep) of 1gal. milk jugs for all the pistol bullets...the shotgun slug (on right) was dug out of a sandy bank IIRC.

So which brand is more reputable Buffalo Bore or Corbon?

I would say CorBon, the choice of many LE agencies.

 

[stinger 327]

If you can make 1" diameter hole clear through your attacker, you've got all the performance you can expect from any round.

The .45 ACP in 160 grain or 230 grain is going to make a big hole anyway. The 160 grain will most likely penetrate more.

 

[stinger 327]

Triple rows (at least 6 deep) of 1gal. milk jugs for all the pistol bullets...the shotgun slug (on right) was dug out of a sandy bank IIRC.

At one point wasn't the 230 grain Hydroshok the one to get?

 

[Maverick223]

The 160 grain will most likely penetrate more.

This is generally not the case because sectional density (henceforth referred to as SD), not velocity, is the biggest determining factor for penetration. The more massive the projectile, the greater the mass to diameter ratio (the SD).

At one point wasn't the 230 grain Hydroshok the one to get?

It was for me (and still is for many folks), it was my former carry load.

 

[stinger 327]

This is generally not the case because sectional density (henceforth referred to as SD), not velocity, is the biggest determining factor for penetration. The more massive the projectile, the greater the mass to diameter ratio (the SD).

It was for me (and still is for many folks), it was my former carry load.

Very interesting then why do they make these same bullets but in different weights vs. just the old traditional 124 9mm, 158 .38/.357, 230 .45 ACP?

 

[gunzee]

Many low velocity loads demo much better expansion in water than in flesh and blood. The fluid enters and flows out of the nose cavity much easier. Clothing, hair and skin often "clog' hp cavities, you see. The 230 is very poor performer on flesh. The exit wounds on animals almost always look the same as entrance wounds. They penetrate a big feral dog from end to end, and ball ammo sometimes completely pierce 2 people. An unexpanded jhp is really just ball, with a small meplat.

 

[Maverick223]

Very interesting then why do they make these same bullets but in different weights vs. just the old traditional 124 9mm, 158 .38/.357, 230 .45 ACP?

Different strokes for different folks. In some cases you want to deter over-penetration and need to reduce the mass & SD (as well as choose the construction of bullet carefully), in others you can go too heavy, resulting in poor expansion. This is said to be the case with the 147gr. 9mm cartridge.

The 230 is very poor performer on flesh.

This guy has had differing results (though he is using ballistics gelatin, not flesh). In fact here is the cartridge that I was referring to.

 

[stinger 327]

Different strokes for different folks. In some cases you want to deter over-penetration and need to reduce the mass & SD (as well as choose the construction of bullet carefully), in others you can go too heavy, resulting in poor expansion. This is said to be the case with the 147gr. 9mm cartridge.

This guy has had differing results (though he is using ballistics gelatin, not flesh). In fact here is the cartridge that I was referring to.

I see this is a but confusing but lots of info from that website. .45 ACP weight goes from 165 grain to 230 grain.

 

[Sevenfaces]

The right bullet is the one you shoot best, regardless of weight.

You're going to get a myriad of responses regarding this, but in my carry gun, I use some sort of .45 acp JHP rounds, I don't have the actual weight, but I wouldn't go with anything under 185 grains.

 

[stinger 327]

The right bullet is the one you shoot best, regardless of weight.

You're going to get a myriad of responses regarding this, but in my carry gun, I use some sort of .45 acp JHP rounds, I don't have the actual weight, but I wouldn't go with anything under 185 grains.

Why not under 185? What's the purpose of the 165 grain .45 ACP?

 

[Prosser]

LOOK at the brassfetcher results, and it's going to be clear.

The light 45's blow up like a parachute, and fail to penetrate enough. The high
velocity works against penetration, dumping all the energy in a shallow cavity.
Great varmit bullet, bad hog bullet.

You want both, look at either .45 Super, available 230 grains at 1100 fps, or
200 grains at 1200 fps, or .451SMC, soon to come from Double Tap, with the same ballistics. Also, the lighter bullets lack a crimp grove, and are more likely to move in the magazine under heavy recoil. Not something you want in a heavy recoiling handgun.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Well, let's hope that 1" hole goes through some nerves since a bad guy can still shoot back while bleeding out.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Well, let's hope that 1" hole goes through some nerves since a bad guy can still shoot back while bleeding out.

Let's hope.

But looking at statistics of actual gunfights, about the best you can reasonably expect is one hit in the body before you get hit. I had an NVA lieutenant fire 10 rounds at me from a Browning Hi-Power at about 40 feet, and he didn't get any hits.