For Self Defense, what weight, in what caliber is more often preferred?

[stinger 327]

i.e. .45ACP in 230 or 165, 200 grains?
.357 in 110 grains, 125 grains or 158 grains or 180 grains?
9mm in 115 grains or 124 grains?

Is the heavier slug traveling at the lower velocity more deadly than the lighter slug traveling at hyper speed?

There are many more choices now than just the traditional .45 ACP in 230 grain bullets or .357 in 158 grains.

 

[Bullseye_shooter]

I use a .45ACP +P round from double tap, 1300 fps thats double the speed of a .45 ACP and the same speed as most 9mm +Ps

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=329249

its kinda pricey but its defense ammo so after testing and training price shouldnt matter, but make sure your gun can handle the pressure what system are you running?

 

[stinger 327]

I use a .45ACP +P round from double tap, 1300 fps thats double the speed of a .45 ACP and the same speed as most 9mm +Ps

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=329249

its kinda pricey but its defense ammo so after testing and training price shouldnt matter, but make sure your gun can handle the pressure what system are you running?

So this is more dangerous than the 230 grain which is known to knock a man down?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO shooting a 230gr .45 Auto @1300 fps defeats the original design. That round was developed to travel at ~900 fps and has done the job well for 100 years. If it ain't broke don't fix it...

I personally prefer:
A 230gr bullet in the .45 Auto
A 158gr bullet in the .357 Magnum (or a 145gr Winchester Silvertip)
A 124gr bullet in the 9mm

 

[Jed Carter]

For me it's, O 12ga, 185gr .45 ACP, 155gr .40 S&W, 125 gr .357 magnum, 125gr .357 SIG, 124gr 9mm & 100gr .380ACP. All are standard pressure ammunition, less flash out of most (except the .357 mag), less muzzle climb and faster for me, follow up shots. Brands I prefer, Hornady, Speer and Federal. With Remington Golden Saber in .380 for my last resort pistol. I have never found the +P ammunition a benefit to my shooting skills, with maybe a small + to the terminal ballistics. It is very likely that I may face multiple assailants and the need to move through one target to the next. IMO faster effective follow up shots are more important than sheer brute force. I usually carry a CZ PCR 9mm, sometimes a SIG P239 .357 SIG and if there is no other way a SIG P238 .380ACP. Again this just my opinion, I have confidence with each weapon ( way less in the .380) that I could could get the job done with up to 3 targets, maybe even 4. Honing skills adds a lot to survivability, without the skill set it won't matter what you use.

 

[FastMover]

230gr Hornady XTP/TAP round or 230gr Federal Hydrashok in .45acp
180gr Federal Tactical Bonded JHP or 165gr CCI/Speer GDHP in .40 S&W
124gr Hornady XTP/TAP round in 9mm


I like the standard velocity flavored rounds. No +p or +p+.

 

[Sam1911]

So this is more dangerous than the 230 grain which is known to knock a man down?

Erm...no. No defensive handgun round will "knock a man down." That's an action-movie myth. The real goal is to poke as many holes as possible in the most important parts of the assailant, as fast as possible.

The standard "good" number to aim for is at least 12" of penetration. (You can find penetration stats for most cartridges & bullets with a google search.)

The heavier the bullet you're firing, generally, the more penetration you'll get. Depending on bullet type (hollow-point, semi-wadcutter, etc.) the higher the velocity, the more penetration you (may) get.

But the real key is to be able to make lots of hits, accurately and quickly. Once you reach that 12" +/- penetration goal, more energy really just equates to slower recovery times, less control, and slower follow-up shots.

To simplify, pick pretty much any popular middle-of-the-road defense loading in a hollow-point, semi-wadcutter, or HP/SWC type bullet, and you'll be just fine -- so long as you can place accurate shots very quickly.

 

[stinger 327]

Lots of info here thanks for the input guys.

 

[stinger 327]

I use a .45ACP +P round from double tap, 1300 fps thats double the speed of a .45 ACP and the same speed as most 9mm +Ps

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=329249

its kinda pricey but its defense ammo so after testing and training price shouldnt matter, but make sure your gun can handle the pressure what system are you running?

Corbon has a similiar round which is a .45 ACP at 160 grains close to 1,150 fps?
In any case the size of the .45 ACP is going to make a big hole no matter at what weight or velocity.

 

[stinger 327]

IMO shooting a 230gr .45 Auto @1300 fps defeats the original design. That round was developed to travel at ~900 fps and has done the job well for 100 years. If it ain't broke don't fix it...

I personally prefer:
A 230gr bullet in the .45 Auto
A 158gr bullet in the .357 Magnum (or a 145gr Winchester Silvertip)
A 124gr bullet in the 9mm

I thought 115 grain in 9mm was the standard and also better rated?

 

[Landric]

My preference is as follows:

-.45 ACP, 230 grain Winchester Ranger T or 230 grain Speer Gold Dot

-.44 Special, 255 grain SWC in the 900-1000fps range

-.357 Magnum, 158 grain Federal Hydrashok or 158 grain Speer Gold Dot (I'm also comfortable with the 125 grain Federal 357B JHP or the 125 grain Speer Gold Dot, but the 158 grain bullets shoot POA in my fixed sight defense guns, so I generally stick with 158 grain bullets)

.38 Special, 158 grain LSWCHP+P

9x19mm, 124 grain +P Speer Gold Dot

.32 H&R Magnum, Georgia Arms 100 grain JHP (I'd rather have a 115 grain SWC)

In the event I ever get a 327 Federal revolver, my choice would be the 115 grain Gold Dot.

I'm not to worried about "one shot stops" or various other "testing". I'm interested in ammunition that cycles reliably, shoots point of aim, and has reasonable power for the cartridge, along with good penetration. "Stopping Power" is generally a function of shot placement more than anything else.

 

[stinger 327]

My preference is as follows:

-.45 ACP, 230 grain Winchester Ranger T or 230 grain Speer Gold Dot

-.44 Special, 255 grain SWC in the 900-1000fps range

-.357 Magnum, 158 grain Federal Hydrashok or 158 grain Speer Gold Dot (I'm also comfortable with the 125 grain Federal 357B JHP or the 125 grain Speer Gold Dot, but the 158 grain bullets shoot POA in my fixed sight defense guns, so I generally stick with 158 grain bullets)

.38 Special, 158 grain LSWCHP+P

9x19mm, 124 grain +P Speer Gold Dot

.32 H&R Magnum, Georgia Arms 100 grain JHP (I'd rather have a 115 grain SWC)

In the event I ever get a 327 Federal revolver, my choice would be the 115 grain Gold Dot.

I'm not to worried about "one shot stops" or various other "testing". I'm interested in ammunition that cycles reliably, shoots point of aim, and has reasonable power for the cartridge, along with good penetration. "Stopping Power" is generally a function of shot placement more than anything else.

I understand. Sounds to me that you are a revolver guy.

 

[Ben86]

.45-230gr

.357-125gr (for defense) 158gr (hunting)

9mm-124gr

I tend to stick with the weight intended for each caliber, they usually are what the rifling is designed for. A lighter bullet traveling at higher speed can have more kinetic energy, but kinetic energy is not everything. You want to avoid getting a light, fast, but shallow penetrating round. There are many more choices now than in the past, and nearly all weights offered by reputable manufacturer's premium ammo will work. I tend to stick with the mid-heavy weight range.

I thought 115 grain in 9mm was the standard and also better rated?

124gr is the standard weight for 9mm since its creation. 115 grain may have higher velocity, but as I said that's not everything. I like 124 grain more because it helps ensure proper penetration, and gives more "lead to spread."

 

[stinger 327]

So it's 9mm in 124 grains. A long time ago I can remember when it was Federal BP 9mm in 115 grain was the rage.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The Federal 115gr BP load was very popular (and a personal favorite), as was the 147gr subsonic loads...however the original design load for the 9mm was 124grs (I usually carry a 127gr +P+ load)

Part of understanding accepted bullet weights is understanding their history.

The .357 Magnum was originally loaded with a 158gr bullet, because that was what was used in it's parent cartridge the .38 spl. The .357 Mag has the best defensive street record when loaded with the 125gr JHP.

The .40 S&W was originally loaded with the 180gr bullet, because it was meant to replicate the loading specified by the FBI for their 10mm load in a smaller cartridge. While the 180gr loading is still very popular, the 155gr and 165gr loadings seem to be gaining acceptance as more versatile

 

[stinger 327]

The Federal 115gr BP load was very popular (and a personal favorite), as was the 147gr subsonic loads...however the original design load for the 9mm was 124grs (I usually carry a 127gr +P+ load)

Part of understanding accepted bullet weights is understanding their history.

The .357 Magnum was originally loaded with a 158gr bullet, because that was what was used in it's parent cartridge the .38 spl. The .357 Mag has the best defensive street record when loaded with the 125gr JHP.

The .40 S&W was originally loaded with the 180gr bullet, because it was meant to replicate the loading specified by the FBI for their 10mm load in a smaller cartridge. While the 180gr loading is still very popular, the 155gr and 165gr loadings seem to be gaining acceptance as more versatile

The .40 cal seems to be the choice of Law enforcement of today. I have seen them go from .38 to .357 to 9mm now to .40. Is the .40 that much better than the .45 ACP and the 9mm?
I have also heard that especially in autos one is better to stick with the norm of the weight of that caliber i.e. 230 grain for .45 ACP because of the recoil needed to chamber and discharge the next round. I don't know if that still stands true to today with all of the new powders made.
What is the standard velocity in .40 cal?

 

[9mmepiphany]

The original loading was a 180gr JHP @ 980 fps

I don't think the .40 is any better than the 9mm...but look at my user name. In fact, my user name is related to my switch in choice of duty carry from the .40 back to the 9mm. I think the 10mm was a better choice, for LE, than the .40 except for the lack of choice in available platforms

 

[stinger 327]

The original loading was a 180gr JHP @ 980 fps

I don't think the .40 is any better than the 9mm...but look at my user name. In fact, my user name is related to my switch in choice of duty carry from the .40 back to the 9mm. I think the 10mm was a better choice, for LE, than the .40 except for the lack of choice in available platforms

That's it? Like a pellet gun. Those stats are far off of what a .45 ACP is. Personally I have always liked in this order: the .357 better then the .45 ACP and well 9mm I don't find as accurate as the .45 ACP.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That's it? Like a pellet gun. Those stats are far off of what a .45 ACP is. Personally I have always liked in this order: the .357 better then the .45 ACP and well 9mm I don't find as accurate as the .45 ACP.

Try a different bullet weight...the most accurate I've tried was a 135gr out of a Beretta 92 Elite II

Which platforms are you comparing?

 

[jon_in_wv]

Deadly is dependent more on what it hits than what type of bullet you use. You'll find the conventional wisdom on this board leans toward the heavier bullets for deeper penetration. In .45acp the 230gr loads have a good reputation and the muzzle blast and extra recoil of the lighter +p loads just aren't worth the extra effort and expense. the middle weight loads in .40 and 9mm seem to be the most popular (155gr and 124gr respectively) but the 147gr bullets in 9mm with modern bullet construction have come a long way. The lighter, faster loads seem to work well but most folks prefer a heavier bullet that will give more reliable penetration over the large expansion and fragmentation of the faster loads. Pistol bullets generally don't have the velocity to take advantage of the massive temporary cavity and resulting tissue damage caused by rifle bullets so most folks err on the side of deeper penetration in the hope the bullet will go deep enough to strike something vital. Modern construction of bullets like the Gold Dots, Federal HSTs, etc.....have gone a long way to even the playing field when it comes to 9mm vs .40 vs .45acp. I feel very well protected by either my 9mms or my .45.

Some folks also believe FMJs are the way to go but honestly I haven't heard one good argument that would make me choose them over a quality HP. In smaller calibers like the .380, 32acp, etc....there may be some credence to idea that HPs may hinder penetration too much but in any 9mm or larger I think they generate enough energy and have enough bullet weight to take good advantage of the extra wounding capability of the HPs that they make the FMJs much less effective by comparison. Over penetration can become an issue with FMJs in the larger calibers.

The bottom line is that most people spend WAY too much time worrying about what bullet to carry and not nearly enough time worrying about when they are going to get to the range and to become proficient with their chosen weapon. If you have faith in your proficiency with your weapon and your ability to put your bullet where it counts the type of bullet you are shooting will mean a lot less to you.

My personal choice in my carry guns is the Federal HST 124gr 9mm and the Federal HST 230gr for my .45. They are a good design, have good velocity, and cost much less than Gold Dots or the other premium HPs. I do carry the 90gr Gold Dots in my 380.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

So this is more dangerous than the 230 grain which is known to knock a man down?

No pistol cartridge will "knock a man down." It's physically impossible.

And if it were possible, the man wouldn't be hurt, since all of the bullet's energy would be expressed as momentum, not as kenitic energy.

 

[stinger 327]

Deadly is dependent more on what it hits than what type of bullet you use. You'll find the conventional wisdom on this board leans toward the heavier bullets for deeper penetration. In .45acp the 230gr loads have a good reputation and the muzzle blast and extra recoil of the lighter +p loads just aren't worth the extra effort and expense. the middle weight loads in .40 and 9mm seem to be the most popular (155gr and 124gr respectively) but the 147gr bullets in 9mm with modern bullet construction have come a long way. The lighter, faster loads seem to work well but most folks prefer a heavier bullet that will give more reliable penetration over the large expansion and fragmentation of the faster loads. Pistol bullets generally don't have the velocity to take advantage of the massive temporary cavity and resulting tissue damage caused by rifle bullets so most folks err on the side of deeper penetration in the hope the bullet will go deep enough to strike something vital. Modern construction of bullets like the Gold Dots, Federal HSTs, etc.....have gone a long way to even the playing field when it comes to 9mm vs .40 vs .45acp. I feel very well protected by either my 9mms or my .45.

Some folks also believe FMJs are the way to go but honestly I haven't heard one good argument that would make me choose them over a quality HP. In smaller calibers like the .380, 32acp, etc....there may be some credence to idea that HPs may hinder penetration too much but in any 9mm or larger I think they generate enough energy and have enough bullet weight to take good advantage of the extra wounding capability of the HPs that they make the FMJs much less effective by comparison. Over penetration can become an issue with FMJs in the larger calibers.

The bottom line is that most people spend WAY too much time worrying about what bullet to carry and not nearly enough time worrying about when they are going to get to the range and to become proficient with their chosen weapon. If you have faith in your proficiency with your weapon and your ability to put your bullet where it counts the type of bullet you are shooting will mean a lot less to you.

My personal choice in my carry guns is the Federal HST 124gr 9mm and the Federal HST 230gr for my .45. They are a good design, have good velocity, and cost much less than Gold Dots or the other premium HPs. I do carry the 90gr Gold Dots in my 380.

I agree placement is very crucial especially since we are talkin handguns here. A .22 LR can be proven deadly and fatal when placed properly.
As far as the mouse guns go the smaller calibers I have heard that FMJ's are preferred choice because as it is these calibers don't generate enough velocity to expand. So you would have a better chance of a FMJ doing more damage with the better increased penetration i.e .25 ACP.
Also in times of war FMJ's would be ideal since they go through everything in that you can hit multiple soldiers with that one shot where over penetration isn't a liability like in the civilian world.
At one point in time I remember Magsafe loads (fragmented hi-velocity light loads) were suppose to be very deadly causing great wounding damage. What is the latest on this now?

 

[jon_in_wv]

I have heard that FMJ's are preferred choice because as it is these calibers don't generate enough velocity to expand. So you would have a better chance of a FMJ doing more damage with the better increased penetration i.e .25 ACP.

Like I said, this doesn't make sense. If the JHP didn't expand it would act like a FMJ so there would be no difference. A FMJ can do the same damage as a HP that doesn't expand but its not likely to do more. But I digress, this thread was about bullet weight not FMJ vs HPs.

 

[withdrawn34]

Heavy and relatively slow. 230 gr 45 ACP (standard pressure) for me. Too fast and you end up with a round that penetrates too much. Too little and you get a round that doesn't penetrate enough. A heavy, slow round should dump a good amount of energy into the BG. Of course, it'll still overpenetrate (any useful caliber will), but it shoudln't have as much energy at that point.

 

[Old krow]

230 grain .45 TAP, because it works. Any of the calibers and bullet weights listed here will serve their purchase should they find their target.

The bottom line is that most people spend WAY too much time worrying about what bullet to carry and not nearly enough time worrying about when they are going to get to the range and to become proficient with their chosen weapon.

That! I prefer the .45 because it delivers enough energy to get the job done and I regain my sight picture back fairly quickly. I'm a little more accurate with my revolver, but slower on the follow up shot.

So this is more dangerous than the 230 grain which is known to knock a man down?

"Knock down" sounds ominously like Hollywood. Since you can't get anymore dead, it's really a matter of adequacy. Under most normal conditions the 230 grain is adequate. I'm sure the 160 grain is as well, in fact it seems to have about 40 ft/lbs more energy at the muzzle. I practice with 230 grains so I shoot 230 grains.

Also in times of war FMJ's would be ideal since they go through everything in that you can hit multiple soldiers with that one shot

Den Hagg (The Hague) Convention outlawed the use of hollow points in war. They were outlawed because the wounds were difficult to treat and the soldier was likely to die an agonizing death from infection should he survive the gun shot wound itself. They were deemed "inhumane."

There aren't many rounds designed to penetrate one soldier and go into the next. There are some that definitely will. When your muzzle velocity starts at +10K ft/lbs, as opposed to my .45 acp's 475 ft/lbs, you're going through a lot. But, those were never really deemed an "anti-personnel" weapon either.