Gun shows and Nazi paraphernalia

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When the "historical memorabilia" tables are decorated w/ huge swatstikas and have stacks of "Christians, take back your country" bumper stickers for sale along w/ the 'historical' stuff, I really can't blame anyone for walking away with a negative image of gun owners (and I own several guns myself).

How many business that sell anything like that in stores instead of at gunshows have Nazi flags flying over their front doors?
 
"...find me ONE black person who is not deeply offended by the confedrate flag."

For your remedial education, there were black units, and even black officers who fought for the South in the War of Northern Aggression. There were even free black men who owned slaves. Naturally, this history is not taught by those that won that illegal war. Think about it - if the war was REALLY about ending slavery, answer me three questions:

1. The war started in 1861. If the war was about ending slavery, WHY was the "emancipation prclamation" not issued until 1863? Why not immediatly proclaim itat the start of hostilities?

2. The famous "Emancipation Proclamation" was so worded that it freed only slaves in territories "in rebellion" that were under the control of the Union army - so essentially, it freed almost no one at the time it was issued. WHY was it wordedin such a way as to allow slavery to continue in Maryland, and other slave territory that DIDN'T seceed? After all, its about "ending slavery", right?

3. Regale me again with how the newly freed black citizens were welcomed with open arms and re-settled in the North, with the same wages and housing opertunities as any other citizen... 'cause I seem to remember they were packed into ghettos and tenement slums, and if they could get work at all, it was at half the wage a similar white person drew for the same job...a condition which prevailed until World War II, except in the military, where blacks were denied proper promotions and awards, and kept in segregated units, until after the Korean war. Seems to me the North treated the freedmen just as shabily as they treated the Irish, Italians, Poles, etc.
 
How many gun-haters are going to PAY to get INTO a gun show, anyway? Freedom is freedom, even for things and ideas you don't like, and I refuse to get my paties in a bunch over what a bunch of gun-banning libs might think about a guy selling a Nazi flag, when they probably had a V.C., ANC, IRA, or PRC flag in their dorm room - all Commie, all bad, & two of them have the dreaded "assault rifle " on them to boot.
 
I agree, who cares what the anti-gun liberals think. They hate us either way. The ones we need to worry about are the middle of the road crowd, who generally don't show up to gun shows anyway. If you do take a middle roader to a gun show, explain to them that the Nazi's have freedom of speech and even though they hang out at gun shows, it doesn't mean all gun owners behave that way. I would think just ignoring them would be the best course of action. They do have a right to think and believe what they want, just like the anti-gun crowd. And we have a right to oppose them and try to stop them. This is simple politics and human nature. Why sweat it?
 
Historical Value, and the good old 1st amendment. To reiterate it's not just for things you agree with. If that was the case there wouldn't be anymore liberals in mainstream america
 
The 1st amendment makes it legal; it does not obligate gun show operators to sell table space to anyone. The Klan has a constitutional right to exist, but I'd hope nobody would sell the racist SOBs a table at a show.
 
El Rojo, I think many sweat it because they are worried about how it reflects on the gun culture to be associated (however unintentionally) with Nazis or Confederates. Hurts in the PR battle.
Everything hurts us in the PR battle. They don't tell the truth and the lie whenever they can to demonize us. So what damage are a few radicals going to do? Actually the most important question is what can we do about it? Short of some gun show vendors not renting out the space, nothing. They have a right to exist and do what they want. We can't change that, so why worry about it?
 
They have a right to exist and do what they want. We can't change that, so why worry about it?

We have a right to voice complaints, which is the first step in getting things changed. Would you rather people just silently stop going to shows because of all the swastikas?
 
It hurts among the undecided to see such things displayed. Imagine how seeing a swastika flying high at a gun show goes over in the Jewish community or a Confederate flag goes over in the African-American community.

What can we do? Pressure gun show promoters to set conditions not to allowing the sales of such rubbish at gun shows. The Nazi/CSA advocates may have a right to display their ideology, but they have no right to rent space. Don't rent it to them. That's what we can do. :)
 
Lots of things that I see for sale bother me, not just stuff at gun shows but at the mall as well. T-Shirts with Charles Manson's picture on them for instance.

At least I can appreciate the fact that many people can collect Nazi memorabilia as a piece of history, without necessarily subscribing to Hitler's beliefs. What is the purpose of wearing a t-shirt with Charles Manson picture on it? While I don't understand it, I can and do respect the vendor’s right to sell it and the consumer’s right to buy it.
 
Are these stands selling just nazi stuff or just war memorabilia in general? If these stands are only fixated on selling nazi stuff then one might question who they're trying to market. It's pretty easy for anyone on the outside looking in to see that stuff and think of the modern day KKK goobers running around in the woods with their guns and nazi armbands.
 
I have the right to patronize whom I please - thus if a gun show has a significant Nazi presence, I will tell the organizer and not return.

Also, I really don't believe that that many of the folks who say don't sweat it, do that because of some abstract belief in free speech.

Let's give a test case - suppose at the gun show, someone had a table asking for legislation to legalize sex with children and sold t-shirts like that. Would the Nazis are OK folks be OK with that table?

If you say that wouldn't happen, you are ignoring thinking about the issue. On a practical and moral basis, I won't patronize a locale that had either. If you are ok with the Nazi - well, guess what.
 
Are these stands selling just nazi stuff or just war memorabilia in general?

There are booths that fall into both categories. The "just nazi stuff" ones are the ones most people are complaining about.
 
Maybe I should join HCI and try to buy a table at the next show to see people's reaction to "free speech". :)
 
One of the biggest problems I have with guns and gun culture, both for myself and for introducing new people to it, are the prevalence of Nazi and Confederate symbols at shows and on the people there. My girlfriend shoots, but refuses to go to anymore shows after one that was 30-40% Nazi crap. And i don't blame her. If you glory in the symbols of failed regimes that stood for nothing other than genocide and racism, why would you then wonder why people think you're a racist? There's "historical value" in the VietCong too, yet I rarely see tables covered in black pajamas and punji stake kits. There's a reason why in a sport/pastime/hobby that's -let's be real- is dominated by white males these are what interest people. And if there isn't, then somebody really needs to think about the perception. When you're trying to convince people that a perfectly normal person can buy and enjoy firearms, it's kinda hard when you're walking around a room of people that, judging from their wares, would gladly lynch you.
For your remedial education, there were black units, and even black officers who fought for the South in the War of Northern Aggression. There were even free black men who owned slaves. Naturally, this history is not taught by those that won that illegal war.
There were black units when the South was losing, and short of manpower, populated on the promise of freedom for those that served. There were French units in WWII, doesn't mean the French loved Nazis. It means people do what they need to to survive. Regular Confederate units usually massacred black Union units rather than take them prisoner. And it's funny how it's the "War of Northern Aggression" even though the South attacked first. They teach it in school. I was especially impressed by the part where almost the entire Confederate officer corp broke their oaths of allegiance to the country, based on defending the principle of not being told that they didn't have a right to own other people.
1. The war started in 1861. If the war was about ending slavery, WHY was the "emancipation prclamation" not issued until 1863? Why not immediatly proclaim itat the start of hostilities?
Because Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union, and the South was fighting specifically for the right to mantain their trade in human beings. Since that was the Union's big bargaining chip, immediately ending that trade would've ended any hopes of reconciliation, and therefore been useless. More on that in a minute...

2. The famous "Emancipation Proclamation" was so worded that it freed only slaves in territories "in rebellion" that were under the control of the Union army - so essentially, it freed almost no one at the time it was issued. WHY was it wordedin such a way as to allow slavery to continue in Maryland, and other slave territory that DIDN'T seceed? After all, its about "ending slavery", right?
It was worded so that it freed slaves in territories still under rebellion were freed:
"That on the first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the Executive Government of the United States, including the military and naval authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such persons, and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom."
It was again, specifically designed to pressure states back into the Union, by allowing them to retain their most valuable commodity; the free labor for their agricultural base made possible by the trade of human beings as cattle. A stae that hadn't participated in the rebellion, or that renounced it at that point would be allowed to retain their slaves. However, since only a handful of slave states had sided with the Union, the vast majority of slaves in the US were freed by the proclamtion; that the South continued to hold them as slaves was par for the course with initiating a war over the 'right' to buy and sell people.

3. Regale me again with how the newly freed black citizens were welcomed with open arms and re-settled in the North, with the same wages and housing opertunities as any other citizen... 'cause I seem to remember they were packed into ghettos and tenement slums, and if they could get work at all, it was at half the wage a similar white person drew for the same job...a condition which prevailed until World War II, except in the military, where blacks were denied proper promotions and awards, and kept in segregated units, until after the Korean war. Seems to me the North treated the freedmen just as shabily as they treated the Irish, Italians, Poles, etc.
So, if I understand this correctly, because there were racists in the North, blacks were actually better off as 2/3 human property in the South? Better to be a well cared for dinette set, than a poor human being... That's some powerful logic right there.

I say this as a gun owner, Nazi hater (A trip to the Holocaust Museum in DC is why I own guns), minority, former student at Robert E. Lee Elementary and A.P. Hill Middle schools, native of a state that celebrates Lee/Jackson/King Day because Virginia sees no irony in celebrating one of the great civil rights leaders alongside to people that would've valued him primarily for how much he could carry.
 
What can we do? Pressure gun show promoters to set conditions not to allowing the sales of such rubbish at gun shows. The Nazi/CSA advocates may have a right to display their ideology, but they have no right to rent space. Don't rent it to them. That's what we can do.

Bingo. That is what I have been saying needs to happen. Problem is, most promoters care about money. If a guy with Nazi stuff is willing to pay more than a guy with guns to sell, who are a lot of promoters going to go with?

There were French units in WWII, doesn't mean the French loved Nazis.

How many French fought for the Nazi's?

So, if I understand this correctly, because there were racists in the North, blacks were actually better off as 2/3 human property in the South? Better to be a well cared for dinette set, than a poor human being... That's some powerful logic right there.

The point was, that their conditions were no better in the North. They were no longer slaves by being tied as property to one person, but they sure wern't better off. They sure wern't freemen. I don't think you can consider them free until the 1960's or so. Many Northern whites didn't want them free, as they represented a cheap labor source that the whites could be replaced by.

The common stereotype is that the war was fought by the South simply to keep slaves, and that the North was fighting for their rights. That is why people are offended by the Confederate flag. What people should realize is that slaves wern't the top issue on either side, they were just another point that the states conflicted over.

And I'm not even Southern.
 
Let's give a test case - suppose at the gun show, someone had a table asking for legislation to legalize sex with children and sold t-shirts like that. Would the Nazis are OK folks be OK with that table?
That is a poor analogy that really doesn't fit here. Being a Nazi is not currently illegal. Just because you are a not Nazi doesn't mean you seek to break the law and deprive others of their rights. Might they eventually do that? Sure, then they are criminals and will be treated as such.

Your child example does not work because having sex with children is already illegal. Even if they wanted to make it legal, it is a well-accepted concept that having sex with children is a biological and emotional bad idea. They are two completely different monsters.

Still that being said, if someone wanted to try and legalize having sex with children, that is technically their right too. As with the Nazis I would oppose this and I would vote and voice my opinion in opposition to them. I don't have to demonize them and try and crush their existence by force or coercion. You talk to people and you educate them. It works so much better than brute force. Now if people start going about killing people or having sex with children, that is a crime and lets use the full force of the law to punish them. However, we aren't talking about that. There is a fine difference between theory and practice, but there is a difference and we should recognize that.

If you truly want to make a difference, talk to your middle of the road friends and take people shooting. Show them by example that these Nazis and child sexers are not your stereotypical shooters. Teach them that the best way to handle these demons is through lack of attention and letting them have their pitiful existence and not by getting all fired up and getting all outraged about it. If people think differently than me, I don't get upset and start huffing and puffing about how horrible they are. I recognize their right to be stupid and I counter that with my own arguments and actions. I think knee-jerk reactionarism is more despicable than Nazism or a possible attempt to legalize child sex. People need to toughen up and quit being so sensitive. People are allowed to have opposite opinions from yours or even society.

If I were a gun show promoter, I probably wouldn't sell them a table. A simple, "I don't believe in your cause and I won't help you promote it. Sorry." If you really want to make a difference, talk to your show promoters and try to convince them of the same thing. If they don't want to listen to you, then stop going to their shows and tell your friends to do the same. Good luck and I hope you achieve your goals. Me personally, I don't care and I don't pay attention to those guys or gals. If they tried to interact with me at a show, I would tell them don't bother and I don't agree with them and move on. Giving them all of this attention just feeds their appetite and gives them the publicity they want. No thanks.
 
, because there were racists in the North, blacks were actually better off as 2/3 human property in the South? Better to be a well cared for dinette set, than a poor human being... That's some powerful logic right there.

Don't try using logic, people who talk about "the war of northern aggression" and claim that slaves were better off as slaves than freedmen aren't really that well equipped and you know what they say about disparity of force.
 
I do so wish that the Southerners would get off their high horses about the Confederate Battle Flag.

That flag is not controversial because of its design, or that it was a standard waved in the Civil War by the losers, it is what became of that symbol later that has it in the sights of those who'd see it cashiered.

It is amazing that people here willfully will not look at the common linkage between the Confederate Flag and the Swastika. Before its misappropriation by the Nazis, the swastika was a rather innoccuous symbol, appearing as the Hindu symbol for peace, the insignia of the Finnish Air Force, and represented in some architecture in many parts of the world. Now it is toxic. Why would that be? Could it be a racist extermination campaign conducted by the flag bearers? BTW, the Japanese "Rising Sun" flag suffers from a measure of the same oppobrium, but white racists can't adopt that one.

But boy howdy, those white racists, from the originals in the Deep South to the newly minted ones as far north and west as Idaho, sure adopted the Confederate Battle Flag as their own for well over a century and a quarter by now. The battle flag was misappropriated and twisted into something quite distant from where it began, and it was wholly corrupted by native sons in the beginning. It was pressed into duty as one of the greatest public props of the KKK, (along with the flaming cross) and neo-Nazis respect the Confederate Battle Flag to this day. Racists stemming from either camp have loaded down their respective symbols with such a tonnage of historical baggage that they will never emerge from beneath it to become socially acceptable again.

It is not PC run amok, it is basic human distaste for the obliviousness of the full import that lay behind promoting the swastika or the Confederate Battle Flag.

In fact, I think the proponents of the battle flag are worse that the clueless Nazis. At least the Nazis acknowledge that their swastika stands for many things, some of them darker than the deepest pits of Hell. The unreconstructed Rebels are an order of magnitude worse because they know the flag is freighted by its use and misuse throughout its history by the Klan and others, but they refuse to acknowledge a problem with that.
 
Boats, I think your analysis is interesting and I agree with parts of it, but my main question is why does it matter? Who cares if someone wants to fly a Nazi flag or a Confederate flag? I don't care why they fly, I don't care the history behind it, I simply do not care. I don't care because I am apathetic or I would engage in that behavior myself. I don't care because flying their flag should have no effect on me. Flying their flag should not irk or ire me or anyone else for that matter. I do care that we are trying to demonize people and tell them they should or shouldn't do something because it might offend me or someone else. TOUGHEN UP! If Jim Bob down the street wants to fly his flag and claim it is for the spirit of Dixie, let em. I don't care either way.
 
Well Said Boats, Well Said!

As to the original intent of this thread, if the stuff being sold is true WWII material, not stricly catering to the Nazi party and not new/neo hate monger crap, I see no harm in it being sold. I personaly wouldn't buy much of it, other then a Luger or other firearm from the Nazi regime, but would luv to find a "Samurai" sword in good that was actually carried by a Japanese officer during WWII (as a true Samurai sword would cost waaay more then I could ever afford)
 
my uncle was killed by the Nazi's

weeks after surviving the beach at Normandy,his last letter to home he was saying how he wanted to kill some "krauts" very politically incorrect by todays standards.
Mom could get offened by hogans heros tv show and and anything nazi or even german, who could blame her?
Nazi's killed alot of people and some people will have a reaction to seeing that stuff,it's only natural.
I plan on buying a k98 they seem like decent rifles at a decent price,my mom cant tell the difference between a k98 or an ar15.
 
How many French fought for the Nazi's?
At least 7,000: research the Waffen SS Charlemange Brigade. I didn't proofread my initial statement adequately. I meant to say "There were French units in WWII that fought for the Germans..." These weren't conscripts either, they were French volunteers.
The point was, that their conditions were no better in the North.
Except for the whole 'not legally being considered property' thing?
What people should realize is that slaves wern't the top issue on either side, they were just another point that the states conflicted over.
What Confederate apologists should realize is, their revisionist history aside, slavery was darn near the only issue. Almost every individual problem had slavery as a common root cause. Northerners opposed allowing additional slaves states into the Union for various reasons; mainly economic, because they didn't want to compete with more free (slave) labor. The South was fearful of Lincoln because they thought he was an abolitionist, and the would immediately take away the free labor upon which their economy depended. Economically, culturally and politically all threads led back to the fact that Southern states didn't want the institution of the trade in human beings threatened. 'States rights' only became an issue (read 'excuse') when it justified their secession.
El Rojo said:
I don't care because flying their flag should have no effect on me.
Part of living in society is realizing that all actions have some effect outside ourselves. My yard is my yard, but to leave the grass uncut and have junked cars in the yard while not physically damaging anyone else's property lowers the appeal, and therefore the value of my neighbors property. A couple such houses and it's a slum. Do I have a right to keep my yard however I chose? Sure do. Is it something a nice person would do? Not really. A single booth with Nazi paraphenalia shows tolerance to other viewpoints; a significant percentage of the booths shows a pasttime full of Nazi sympathizers, which would make a reasonable person wonder whether or not someone who engages in that pasttme is such a sympathizer. Therefore the reputation of all participants are damaged slightly.
 
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