Handgun for protection from a grizzly?

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arizonaguide , the same thing can happen if someone has a rifle. Next you are going to tell people to stay out of the wilderness.

Every time this debate comes up, people have to get bent out of shape. Besides using your head in the outdoors, if a encounter occurs, would you rather have nothing or a handgun?

You cannot have your rifle 24/7 when out in the wilderness, a handgun is a lot easier to carry. When you are sleeping in your tent as I did in Alaska, a rifle is not the easiest gun to maneuver in close quarters, but a handgun is.

And for anyone to say a large caliber handgun loaded properly cannot kill a Grizzly, you are truly misinformed and ignorant to big bore handguns, and what they are capable of.

95% of the people that posted on this thread will never be put into that situation, then there is the other 5% of us that have been there or close to it.

Avoidance is your first line of defense, second is your firearm. Use your head and you may never have to use your firearm.
 
I had a friend in a patrol that stumbled on a bear with cubs 50 rounds of 7.62 FMJ and 90 rounds of 5.56mm fmj
bear went one way
patrol went the other all unharmed:D
possibly excessive for civillian use
 
A handgun may not be ideal for bear defense, but a handgun you have is better than the .375 you don't, I can safely say this, no bear experiance needed.. And, it could make a good back-up.

However, I am hyper sensitive to clean, humane killing.

That's great if you're hunting, but if a bear charges me, I don't care too much what happens to it, as long as I survive.

If you wound a bear, you chase it and kill it, don't call fish and game
Wouldn't Fish and Game have far more experiance with this? I'd rather not die just because I didn't want to inconvenience Fish and Game.
 
Velocity, energy and bullet construction/weight...the combination of them and not only one parameter...on the velocity factor Redhawk1 is so right on this!!!

I been trying to say this since my first post.....velocity is all relative...the proper combination of all plus, most importantly, bullet construction and overall (the most important aspect) shot placement.

One of my Alaskan friend told me of a grizzly shot almost a point blank range (no more than couple of yards) with a .300 Weatherby Magnum and a solid quality bullet.....the thing exploded after only few inches of penetration!!! too much speed, the bullet could not take it once it hit a bone..well a lot more than 4000 ft/lb of energy and the guy still got badly mauled!!

On the other side, a big coastal in full charge (I saw the pics) got dropped deader then dead with 2 shots of 35 Remington hardcast solid

Arizonaguide, the Brenneke Black Magic, barely qualifies, accordingly with your formula, as bear medicine....just a bit more than 1600 fps and barely above 3000 ft/lb...

But that son of a gun 600 gr. hardened, sharp shouldered slug will go through anything....I would not be surprised that if it hit a grizzly's skull, without being deflected, it would split it open like a watermelon...

Guys, let's be realistic, when we are talking about a full power .30 cartridge, we are dealing, at minimum, (30-30) with a 170-190 gr projectile, circa 2000 ft/lb delivered at 2200-2400 fps...at very short range (50 yards or so) and with a quality solid bullet there is not much living tissue on earth that can stop it (maybe except Rhino, Elephant, etc...)
2000 ft/lb is 4 times more energy than a a typical 357 Mag round and on top of that we have a heavier bullet and way better sectional density (= more penetration)
Add an other 60% more for a 30-06 or a 7,62 X 54R....

It is unbelievable the difference in penetration that there is between a regular cheap soft point deer bullet and a solid or harcast...we are comparing orange with apples even within the same cartridge...shoot a grizzly with a .458 Win Mag bullet made of butter and see what happen....

Shot placement AND penetration....once your bullet goes where it supposed to be, THEN the larger diameter caliber makes the difference....for a charging animal, the argument that a larger wound channel makes the bear bleed faster is moot...he will get you before to bleed to death anyway...

Between a charging grizzly shot in the leg or guts with a .460 Weatherby and one shot in the CNS with a 30-30, I'll face the latter any time of the day...
 
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I would not feel undergunned at all against an enraged coastal grizzly with the 22 LR I got yesteday....load it with some Stinger, Velocitor or Aguila Inteceptor and you are good to go......:evil::evil::evil::evil::D:D:D:eek::eek::neener::neener:

remington597tz6.jpg
 
ENJOY the wilderness! (safely)

Redhawk,
Next you are going to tell people to stay out of the wilderness.
If that's what you got out of my posts, you are wrong! (but I understand cuz I was "preaching", sorry!)

EDUCATION/AVIODANCE is what I'm saying. I'm sick when one of my treasured Alaska Brown bears (and maybe cubs too) are destroyed because someone doesn't follow the rules of the Bush. They are not the "enemy", but a national treasure, and they are all but extinct in the lower 48 states. Hopefully we can be smarter than the bears (in the future), and not HAVE those "emergency" (so-called "self-defense") situations.

It's TRAGIC to me, if anyone (people or bear) are killed in a situation that SHOULD have been avoided.
Sympathy for the bear? HELL YES! You are supposed to be smart enough to look out for, and protect him with your education to his ways, and skills as a hunter.

THATS why I asked you to expand upon your Artic Circle procedures. Maybe we can ALL learn techniques to avoid the tragedy, and perhaps save a mother and cubs.

You cannot have your rifle 24/7 when out in the wilderness.

ALASKA BUSH rule #1 (pre-1970's DirtyHarry): ALWAYS have your rifle 24/7 when out in the wilderness.
ALASKA BUSH rule #2: Don't cook where you sleep, and police your GARBAGE/wash hands.
ALASKA BUSH rule #3: Don't feed the bears (even by accident!)


"You are allowed to carry a gun for protection in state parks. Select a gun that will stop a bear (12-gauge shotgun or .300 mag rifle) and practice firing it at a rifle range. Any bear shot in self defense must be salvaged and turned over to the Alaska Department of Fish and Game."
-Alaska Dept of Natural Resourses

"A .300-Magnum rifle or a 12-gauge shotgun with rifled slugs are appropriate weapons if you have to shoot a bear.
Heavy handguns such as a .44-Magnum may be inadequate in emergency situations, especially in untrained hands."
-Alaska Dept of Fish and Game



More Bear safety ideas here:
http://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/safety/bears.htm
http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=bears.bearfax

Get training, Be SAFE, Enjoy the wilderness. Always bring a camera. :)
dadhuntingwIwas10yrsold.gif
Hunting with Dad, 1960's Alaska.
 
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When I lived in Alaska, I only owned a single shot .22 and a Lee-Enfield No.4 Mk.I*, needless to say I took neither along whilst backpacking. I never did see a bear, Brown or Black anytime on the trail. Granted I was using fairly heavy traveled trails with many other backpackers and day hikers hiking and camping near by.

I used a bit of common sense when it came to food, cooking, etc. and was totaly fine. I stuck to using regualer, marked, populated trails, etc. Looking back, if I had something that would not have encumbered too much with a heavy rucksack, by all means I would have taken it along, but I did not have anything handy and did not want to miss out on having great time backpacking.

The people I did see who where armed mostly had .44 Magnum Revolvers, or/and 12ga. Shotguns loaded slug/buckshot, slug/buckshot, etc.
When I go back with my Girlfriend I do plan on taking a shotgun and a revolver, but that will be a ways down the road, so not a big deal right now.
Thanks
Mark
 
The last guy I read about who got killed by a Grizzly along with his wife had an Alaskan Guide gun. He left it with an empty chamber against a nearby bush. He didn't have time to get it so really the best gun is a revolver on your person. The .44 mag with the right hard cast bullets is the absolute minimum.
 
define solid

"And why do you think a hard cast bullet is a poor choice of bullet for the 375 H&H? I use them with great success."

"One of my Alaskan friend told me of a grizzly shot almost a point blank range (no more than couple of yards) with a .300 Weatherby Magnum and a solid quality bullet.....the thing exploded after only few inches of penetration"



i think peter capstick hathaway forgot more about big game hunting than any of us alive now will ever know. he could have packed along hard aloys of lead for pouring his own bullets, this would have been much more convenient for him. still, he special ordered solids from H&H in england for game that he considered very dangerous.

there is a trend to call extra tough jacketed lead bullets solids these days. some even have copper over steel over lead. these aren't solids. the notion that any hardness of lead will stand up to impact with bone better than bronze aloy solid round nose bullets {not pre-split} is very hard for me to believe.

the 416 barrett solid loads @ 3250fps will penetrate even steel better than the .50 BMG @ 2900fps. so velocity is not the death bell for solids.

see "pork chop's" posting @:

http://www.barrettrifles.com/discussionforum_yaf/default.aspx?g=posts&t=189

gunnie
 
The Bear Necessities
Bear Safety tips from the Alaska Dept of Natural Resourses, and the Alaska Dept of Fish and Game

Travel Smart
Always be "bear aware". At trailheads look for posted signs about recent bear activity. Watch ahead for bears or for tracks. Don’t surprise bears. Make plenty of noise when traveling. Hiking in groups is safer than hiking alone.

Roaming/unleashed Dogs can be trouble in bear country. Their curiosity has brought back bears to their owners more than once. It is best to leave your dog at home or keep it on a leash.

Know the difference between black and brown bears. Both black bears and brown or grizzly bears live in areas where there are state parks. Use more than the fur color for identification. There are cinnamon black bears and black brown bears.

Never leave food out when not in use. Store food in your vehicle or a bear-proof locker.
Use bear-proof garbage cans or dumpsters for your garbage.
Keep your camp clean and odor free.

Choose your campsite carefully. Do not camp near a trail, salmon stream, animal carcass, garbage, or any backcountry metal firepit (others may have left food odors). Do camp in a tent in an open quiet area where you can see and hear nearby wildlife and where they can see and hear you.

Cook at least 100 feet away from camp, downwind. Do not cook near your camp, cook smelly foods, sleep in clothes with food odors, or bring any food or lotions into your tent. Store food, pots, lotions, clothes with food odors, and trash away from camp. If there are trees, cache your food out of a bear’s reach (see below). If there are no trees, hang food off of a rock face or a bridge, or store it out of a bear’s sight off the trail and downwind of camp.

Pack out all trash. Do not bury garbage - bears have very keen noses and can find buried garbage.

Use a tent. Do not sleep in the open.

Use a Food Cache - All you need is 100 feet of light line, a small weight to attach to the end of it (a plastic bag with a rock in it works fine), and food bags that you can tie to the line. You’ll never have to climb a tree again!

1. Select 2 trees at least 20 feet apart. Throw the weighted end of the rope over a branch about 17 feet above the ground.
2. Tie the line to the trunk of the first tree. Throw the weighted end of the line over the branch of the second tree.
3. Attach your food bag to the middle of the line, and pull it up and adjust so it is centered, at least 12 feet above the ground.
4. Tie the other end of the line to the second tree. To access food, just let it down. To re-cache it, pull it back up.

Close Encounters
Statistics show the best ways to react to bears when you see them:

If you see a bear that is far away or doesn’t see you...
turn around and go back, or circle far around. Don’t disturb it.

If you see a bear that is close or it does see you...
STAY CALM. Attacks are rare. Bears may approach or stand on their hind legs to get a better look at you. These are curious, not aggressive, bears. BE HUMAN. Stand tall, wave your arms, and speak in a loud and low voice. DO NOT RUN! Stand your ground or back away slowly and diagonally. If the bear follows, STOP.

If a bear is charging...
almost all charges are "bluff charges". DO NOT RUN! Olympic sprinters cannot outrun a bear and running may trigger an instinctive reaction to "chase". Do not try to climb a tree unless it is literally right next to you and you can quickly get at least 30 feet up. STAND YOUR GROUND. Wave your arms and speak in a loud low voice. Many times charging bears have come within a few feet of a person and then veered off at the last second.

If a bear approaches your campsite...
aggressively chase it away. Make noise with pots and pans.
Do not let the bear get any food.

If you have surprised a bear and are contacted or attacked...
and making noise or struggling has not discouraged an attack, play dead. Curl up in a ball with your hands laced behind your neck. The fetal position protects your vital organs. Lie still and be silent. Surprised bears usually stop attacking once you are no longer a threat (i.e. "dead").

If an attack is continuing long after you have ceased struggling, fight back! Predatory bears are often young bears that can be successfully intimidated or chased away. Use a stick, rocks or your hands and feet.


Protection
Most people who hike in Alaska’s wilderness don’t carry a weapon. They know that the best defense is common sense. Traveling and camping carefully are all that they need. If you feel the need for additional protection, consider carrying "pepper spray", a bear deterrent made from the juice of red-hot peppers. This incapacitating spray teaches bears a lesson without permanently maiming them. It’s available at local sporting goods stores and at visitor centers. Be familiar with the characteristics of the brand you choose and its warnings.

Firearms should never be used as an alternative to common-sense approaches to bear encounters. If you are inexperienced with a firearm in emergency situations, you are more likely to be injured by a gun than a bear. It is illegal to carry firearms in some of Alaska's national parks, so check before you go.

A .300-Magnum rifle or a 12-gauge shotgun with rifled slugs are appropriate weapons if you have to shoot a bear. Heavy handguns such as a .44-Magnum may be inadequate in emergency situations, especially in untrained hands.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5161443#post5161443
 
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again +1

"STAY CALM. Attacks are rare. "

+1

moose kill more people every year in alaska than bear do.

gunnie
 
gunnie, how many different game animals have you taken with a hard cast bullet?
I know I have taken quit a few, and still have yet to recover a single bullet (Hard Cast).

I am not talking steel plated game either. I don't know why people have to bring up steel plates when we are talking hunting animals??? :confused:
 
ok, i admit it. you know more about hunting large dangerous game than hathaway. and your hard cast bullets out penetrate 50 bmg.

i won't try to cloud the issue with the facts anymore.

gunnie
 
Good answer gunnie, avoid the question and take your marbles and go home. :(

The usual response when someone does not know what they are talking about. ;)

Have a nice day. :D
 
If an attack is continuing long after you have ceased struggling, fight back!
HUH? So, you play dead for a few minutes, and if an 800 pound anumal is still kicking your ass, then fight back? I think I'd rather take my chances with a 454 casull.
 
Heavy handguns such as a .44-Magnum may be inadequate in emergency situations, especially in untrained hands.
Still more adequate than the magnum rifle you left propped against a tree. Of course I'd rather use a rifle, and if I went hiking in Alaska, I'd be sure to take one, and carry it with me on a good sling. But I'd still bring a handgun, in case I couldn't use a rifle, like if I'm in a small tent, climbing, or something else where I can't have 2 free hands. Better a dying bear than a dead me.
 
I would use whatever I had on me. I would think some well placed shots of .45 would at least slow it down and raise your chances of living, but if that bear is really ticked off, I don't think it’s going to matter. However, I don't know how tough a grizzly's skull is.
 
Heavy handguns such as a .44-Magnum may be inadequate in emergency situations!

All I can do is try to tell you from what the Alaska Fish and Game and my 35+years in Alaska have shown...as well as every war story I've ever heard about bears. Carry the darned Rifle/shotgun. A 12ga (with folding stock / pistol grip) is very easy to carry. Back it up with pepper spray if possible...(and probably more effective). Don't wound the bear!

-deleted- (was.....toooooo fired up about it that night)-

But, don't worry, this is America. Someone will eventually clean up your mess.

Here's another link you (few, I hope)die hard "DirtyHarryBeargun" folks might be interested in:

It about using Muay Thai kicks against Wild Boars. (why not give that a try before you come to Alaska?)
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=409071

"A .300-Magnum rifle or a 12-gauge shotgun with rifled slugs are appropriate weapons if you have to shoot a bear. Heavy handguns such as a .44-Magnum may be inadequate in emergency situations, especially in untrained hands."
-Alaska Dept of Fish and Game


You've been warned.
 
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From your own post...
a .44-Magnum may be inadequate

How does that translate into Fish and game calling me an idiot for thinking a round with 50% more power than a .44( a 454) would be better than nothing.

You make some good points, but also like to tweak the facts to push your own agenda.
I think the majority of people on here are really arguing that while less than the ideal of a 416 rigby, a 454 casull loaded with the right bullets and the person being proficient is not a ridiculous notion, especially in light of the reality that you are more likely to have it on you. For protection against human attackers in an urban setting, my 6" colt python is far inferior to my kel-tec 380, for the simple reason that the kel-tec weighs about 11oz loaded and is much more likley to be on my person than a 3lb plus python. So the question is not whether a 380 is the best round, it's the simple fact that having it on me versus not trumps the whole argument.

And probably you can get away with it with those little tiny Lower 48 bears.
I assume you are just being sarcastic. Aside from coastal browns or kodiaks, interior grizzlies are similar in size.
 
My "agenda" is to get people to quit showing up in the Bush with ONLY a handgun!

Maybe what's not being understood is that in Alaska, "the Bush" is anywhere out of town...and sometimes is IN TOWN.
We have bears come into town, on a regular basis, and get into Garbage/dog food, etc.
Is that the Bear's fault...and "screw her...she should be destroyed" as a "problem bear" (and the cubs with her)?

I'm really not so much addressing my Rant (crap, that's what it's become) at you (or folks like you) who have training and are aware of things.

It's just that since the 1970's Dirty Harry came out, we had a rash of folks show up in the Alaska bush with nothing but .44's, and not taking the time to learn to prevent bear encounters because "hell I don't need to learn that...aw gots ma .44!". It's a False sense of security and usually with bad results. It's also Disrespect for the wildlife.
Those same people seem all to anxious to "pull the trigger" without trying other options.

I know that doesn't apply to the majority here. I know the 454/500 are different (kinda).
But if I can get that message to just ONE person who needs it...it's worth the time.

If I can get it across that it's a TRAGEDY when a Bear get's shot (unless it's a planned hunt on a male bear)...then I've done my job. If you ever get to hear cubs screaming over their dead mother, and then watch them destroyed, you'll know what I mean. Tragedy is the ONLY word for it. Show the proper respect for them, and don't put yourself (or children) in that position. If you have to shoot (god forbid) have something that will end it quickly, for everyones sake.
That's my agenda, that's my rant.
 
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