Hey Cops! Why M&P and not XD(m)'s?

[Shawn Dodson]

I would like to ask you the very same question. Do you practice on a two way range when you practice for self defense? What you seem to be implying is that any practice is inferior to actually being there and doing it "the real way every time."

I explained the reason why the XD line of pistols have not been widely accepted by law enforcement.

Training allows us, among other things, to test, exercise and ingrain the processes we use to manipulate our pistols. In a life or death struggle an injury(s) may impair, inhibit or prevent our ability to perform these processes.

 

[Ben86]

Or slap some grip tape on it. I've seen a few 1911 guys do it.

It's always confused me why guys who are used to 1911s have a problem with the grip safety on an XD.

 

[Manco]

Why is it a big deal? It's a lever, a pin, and a spring. If you don't like it, then it's as simple as removing a lever, a pin, and a spring.

Greatly improving the M&P's trigger is just as easy, and so is removing the internal lock from S&W's revolvers, for that matter, but I guess some people want their guns to be perfect (for them) right out of the box.

 

[MCMXI]

I explained the reason why the XD line of pistols have not been widely accepted by law enforcement.

You haven't explained anything!! You've simply put forward the same dubious argument against the XD as you've been doing for over a year on this forum without a single piece of evidence. Claiming that something is a problem without proving that it's a problem is merely opinion and speculation.

I asked you in another thread, what percentage of LE are involved in shootings? What percentage of those had to perform a one-handed reload due to injury. Of those, how many couldn't perform the reload due to being in a weakened state. Answer that first, then show me a study or test in which officers in a weakened state were tasked with one-handed manipulation of the slide of an XD or XDM and show me how many of them had problems with this as a result of the grip safety.

 

[jackpinesavages]

Because we can carry Glocks instead. Officer choice goes down to (usually) .40 or .45 with a minimum 4" barrel. All else has to be OK'd by Patrol Sargent. (Females usually go with baby Gs or 19s.)

 

[Whiskey11]

TestPilot, have you owned an XD long enough to understand how the grip safety works? If you get dirt, sand, etc into it such that it binds, it will bind in the open position (the unsafe position) which is hardly an issue. The part is never under any stress, and if for some reason you DID squeeze the trigger without depressing the grip safety, it's a big piece of metal designed to handle the stress. It's not some massive mass of cams, pins and springs that is super complicated to assemble and take down and is sensitive to dirt.

Situations will differ, if you are in a position such that your primary hand is injured and you have to pull the trigger, no amount of jerry rigging your grip is going to make that gun go off any easier with one hand then by grabbing the gun like you would normally. I'm not sure HOW you would grip the gun and pull the trigger without deactivating the grip safety. I don't like entertaining the idea of 1000 "what if" scenarios, if you are adamant about continuing these Charades then I wont even bother responding as it's just a waste of time.

I'll leave you this picture, courtesy of the SA XD Manual. Parts 15, 16, 17 are your grip safety parts. Thats IT.

 

[danez71]

Foreign debris can bind operation.

Do you wear goggles? Couldnt foriegn debris cause your eyes to malfunction? You just picked your gun out of the mud so the likelyhood just went up.

A lever can fail, pin can fail, a spring can fail.

Pretty much everything inside a pistol firing mechanism is a lever, pin, and springs. And, pistols always have probability of malfunction.

So why carry the thing? Oh Oh Oh.... I know!

Because those things are NOT likely to happen.


If you're in that heavy of a fight and you drop your gun in the mud.... you're more likely to get shot or your head pounded in than the grip safety failing.

Sure, what you're saying is basically true but you're stretching everyting to the 'nth degree to the point that there are so many other things that are more likely to happen that will hinder you.

 

[ns66]

why it is so complicated?

just treat xd(m) like any other gun without grip safety, as if it doesn't exist, then pull trigger like every other gun, then you will realize there's no chance the grip safety will prevent you from firing

only when you don't want to pull trigger, grip safety is additional safety that will prevent gun from misfire

 

[harmon rabb]

I truly wonder if the xd decriers have ever fired one. The grip safety is so easy to disengage that you truly can't even feel it or notice it.

I also truly wonder if the "LE community" has ever tried an xd. They're easily on par with the glock and m&p, arguably better in some ways. The fact that pretty much no LE's carry them has always struck me as ridiculous. I own a xd 45, which I want to dislike (mostly because I'm a 1911 fan) but every time I take the damn thing to the range I end up enjoying the hell out it. Dead nuts reliable, holds 14rds of 45acp, decent trigger that in no way feels like the SAO that it actually is, soaks up recoil very well, would absolutely 100% trust my life to it in any carry condition.

 

[ns66]

if you read ayoob's books you know it takes major issue/event for LE to change weapon, just think about how much money/relationship invested in current weapon/vendor, and how many layers of command/red tape has to go through to change weapon for the whole force, for example there are 40,000 police officers in NYC alone, think about it, unless xd(m) has magic bullet, no one is going to bother switch all the weapons

xd(m) is as good as glock/m&p or any other, the problem is they come to the market too late, with no prior relationship, in face i'd think civilian's choice is better judge of weather a handgun is good than LE since they are free to choose whatever is best without hands tied

 

[Kiln]

3500 rounds of .40 Smith down range from my XDM and no catastrophic failures so far.

 

[colorado_handgunner]

XD's are considered single action. Same with the CZ-75. Almost all police depts. do not allow single action pistols. The officers who are allowed to carry single actions are going to carry a 1911.

Glock and the S&W M&P are considered double action only. Neither the XD nor CZ has any chance of being more than an afterthought in law enforcement.

This is always the reason I have heard. Btw, I am not a cop, just chiming in with past discussion. I do own a flock and xd, so I can attest to the veracity of the action argument.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk

 

[aderden]

not in Birmingham. the Brink's here has M&P's

at Loomis we carry what we want, barring single actions like 1911's. which leads me to believe this single action argument involving the XD line is a little off. seems to me that if a striker fired pistol has a round chambered, then it is "cocked and locked," and since M&P's and Glocks share this trait, would they not also be SA? you can't de-cock it (if im wrong please tell me) but to compensate they all three have internal measures to prevent accidental firing, along with the grip safety on the springfields. Hence, the "striker fired pistol"? I understood this to be (loosely) a third grouping since the mechanics were different in the striker systems, although many refer to them as DAO, but this is the first I've heard of one being SA.

Please enlighten.

I carry an XD45 tactical on the job, ftr.

 

[jmr40]

While all three feel the same, the XD striker is fully cocked. Pulling the trigger performs a "single action". It releases the striker. The Glock and M&P have the striker only partially cocked. Pulling the trigger performs a "double action". It pulls the striker the rest of the way back, then releases the striker.

 

[rbernie]

Keep things on the High Road, gang, or folks will start getting more then their posts deleted.

 

[SIGLBER]

I know some of the LEO's that I've spoke with that have departments that are more open to officers carrying within reason whatever they can qualify with the XD's are on the approved list. Buddy works at the Federal Courthouse here and carries a .40 XD. But as others have said it probably has more to do with price and politcs than anything else. Glad to see Smith getting so many kudos on the M&P's. Fine American company.

 

[Skylerbone]

I'm not sure any decision comes down to a single issue when it comes to what a particular department carries. The obvious ones may suit those not inclined toward a particular brand or platform but again, they're not the ones in charge.

Price. Well the fact that S&W and Glock strive to compete for the LE market gets them in the door to be sure. Is it the only factor? Doubtful. Some department budgets are larger than others. I recall a posting bashing a N. Carolina agency that purchased new Kimber 1911s at close to $1,000 ea. that were quickly replaced due to reliability problems. I've also read threads noting owners of HiPoint pistols who would trust their lives to that brand.

Management. More than bean counters are involved, as noted above. The primary reason for safeties, heavy trigger pull weights and the like are thanks to the legal departments. While these "experts" may not know an H&K from an H&R they do know that lawsuits happen. An 8 lb. trigger is one that discharges because it was intentionally pulled. A 3 lb. trigger is one that will be subjected to much more scrutiny in court. The same applies to a "grip safety" that, for practical purposes offers no significant measure of difficulty or manipulation to operate the weapon. (but it looks better from a certain standpoint).

Reliability. While the Xd may in actuality be as reliable or more so than anything else on the market it may never be afforded the opportunity to prove it. When large govt. tests are conducted they usually restrict entrants to U.S. manufactured pistols which disqualifies the Xd. Of note here would be the Beretta made in MD and NOT in Italy. Many smaller departments don't have the funding to conduct proper testing but will instead rely on FBI, ATF and other agency lists to tell them which pistols are known to function reliably. Carrying the same model as an ATF or FBI agent also pleases legal departments as to the credibility of the weapon in court. They do not have to contend with a jury hearing that their officer was shooting a Saturday Night Special.

Taken as a whole it's easy to see why any LE agency would opt for the M&Ps. Proven reliability, not just longevity. Cheap, which certainly doesn't hurt. "Safe" and "consistant" trigger pull (albeit lousy in stock form) to appease lawyers. Ergonomic enough to be handled by nearly every size hand.

Unrelated to the question but I do take exception to the poster who called female officers the "Chief's Harem". I've known quite a number of female law enforcement officers in my life and can say without exception that I would not question their abilities or training whether in a gun fight or a fist fight. I would question the training of someone who speculates that a person's gender makes them less capable with (in this case) a pistol.

 

[Viper]

I'm not a Leo, my son is a Chief, and I have no connection to law enforcement procurement. I do know that in February I had a burglary and lost three 1911's, an M&P c 45, a Kahr 45, an USP c 45, two 3rd gen S&W 45's, and an XD c 45. I have since bought 3 1911's, an M&P c 45, a Kahr 9, an HK45c & USP 40, and three 3rd gen S&W's, but no XD. The XD wasn't a bad gun and I didn't mind the grip safety, but it did give a few problems with FTFeeds, and I just didn't like shooting it that much.

 

[Jim Watson]

I saw an advert somewhere recently that claimed the XDm was getting some PD authorization and even some purchases. Seems to be overcoming the early "single action" stigma. Maybe because it is set up so you don't have to pull the trigger to field strip. Or fish around through the ejection port.

 

[StrikeFire83]

This thread is stupid. Carry on.

 

[jackpinesavages]

I'm with you '83. Bizzare.


There's reasons that about 2/3 of the planet's PDs and military groups are with Glock: they're battle simple, they work, they are consistent.

 

[Manco]

While all three feel the same, the XD striker is fully cocked. Pulling the trigger performs a "single action". It releases the striker. The Glock and M&P have the striker only partially cocked. Pulling the trigger performs a "double action". It pulls the striker the rest of the way back, then releases the striker.

Actually, the M&P's trigger is designed as a single-action-only system. When the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar's movement rotates the sear, which releases the already fully-cocked striker (much like the XD's system). This is completely unlike the Glock's trigger system, wherein the "sear" is part of the trigger bar and pushes the striker straight back the rest of the way until it is fully cocked, and then the connector pulls the trigger bar and "sear" downward, releasing the striker.

Now here is where things get a little tricky. For some strange and unnecessary reason, the M&P's sear has a ramp on its striker engagement area that causes it to cam the striker back very slightly before releasing it. This makes the M&P's trigger pull heavier, stagier, creepier, and maybe even somewhat grittier than it otherwise would be. This is why the M&P's trigger is said to be so easy to improve--just about anybody can grind off that ramp on the sear (and radius the sharp edges on the striker block plunger), with the result being quite a superb trigger (with the potential to be even better in the hands of a competent gunsmith, or with drop-in aftermarket parts such as the famous Apex Tactical hard sear).

So if the M&P's trigger system is inherently good in terms of trigger pull, then why would S&W deliberately screw it up so badly? One plausible theory is that they wanted the ATF to classify the M&P as a double-action-only pistol like they do the Glock (erroneously, in my opinion, but that's what they call it), and the extraneous ramp on the sear that nudges the striker is how S&W managed to pull it off. Since the striker moves back (even a tiny amount) when the trigger is pulled, the M&P is by definition a DAO pistol, even though in reality it's a deliberately screwed-up, compromised SAO pistol that is easily fixed (with great results). While this hurts the M&P's reputation among gun enthusiasts who prefer a better trigger out of the box, it opens the door to widespread adoption by law enforcement agencies, working around some silly rules and legal issues. This is just a theory, mind you, although it would explain a lot.

 

[Skylerbone]

It pains me to no end that people expect gourmet food when they pass through the drive thru at the golden arches.

What is in the box from the factory is the way it is purposely. Whether to save a buck or satisfy lawyers and politicians. The fact that it is reliable and has been proven so in trials is what ultimately counts. No extra parts to make the qualification. No difficult to service parts. No need to fish for the lever if you want to pull the trigger for slide removal. It is an F150 for those who need one and it won't likely satisfy a Cadillac man. The trigger can be made better by anyone with an emory board and 5 minutes on their hands which is what makes it a compelling deal compared to an Xd M.

I've seldom met a stock trigger I didn't want to change including several 1911s which is why I choose to do just that before plowing through ammo to "smooth it out". All things to all people is a tall order for any one pistol. I have by the way seen an Xd fail to fire, even after multiple strikes. The same rounds went bang in my M&P which had (by the Xd owner's estimation) about 2000 more rounds through it with no spring changes. 3 M&Ps, 5k rounds, 0 failures of any kind. That's what a defensive pistol is about.

 

[JTQ]

Hey Cops! Why M&P and not XD(m)'s?

Possibly because S&W (and Glock) actually make the pistols they are selling to the Law Enforcement community while Springfield is merely the importer of the XD line-up. They have much less invested in the product and thus are less likely to aggressively push the product than are S&W (and Glock) that have heavily invested in R&D and production facilities.

I find the single action vs double action argument over striker fired pistols to be kind of silly. Sure, for technical hair splitting to put a pistol in a "gaming" category it may make a difference, but to the typical user I don't see how they make any difference. The trigger pull weight is basically the same, they all have a firing pin safety, and there is no hammer to provide a visual clue to the condition one way or the other.

 

[m2steven]

The single/double action argument concerning the 3 pistols discussed here is for practical purposes kind of moot. They all shoot like single action pistols.
As for the grip safety on the xd/xdm series - I completely forget about it when i'm shooting my 3.8 9mm xdm. As for it's trigger - it's the best of the glock/m&p/xd group.

Glocks are great pistols. They have been for decades. I don't think they have the best triggers. However, it's a trigger I never really think about and pulling it is consistent and predictable. Most importantly - it doesn't foul my aim.

I've fired several hundred rounds through 9mm and 40cal M&Ps. They are a fine pistol. Like the Glock, the triggers pretty much all feel the same from pistol to pistol. NO surprises whatsoever. I like it's trigger less than the Glock, but again, it's nothing you think about unless you are just evaluating triggers for fun.

Hickock45 has been mentioned a lot. He loves the Glock trigger. He's an absolute ACE with most any model Glock. This guy shoots 'crap' pistols with
deft precision. I rewatched his Glock cleaning video. He just takes one apart, cleans off any solid particulate matter and just puts it back together. No oil - nothing. Tens of thousands of rounds of that and his own hand loads and they just keep going. I'm actually a Kahr and EMP fanboy, but experience is history and it is what it is. Glocks are good.

I like all three of the topic pistols. They are all true workman's tools. As for some folks being too masculine to have a manual safety on a pistol, the next time you're giving a school class a lecture on gun safety and shoot yourself in the foot - the blood and pain might just cause you to rethink that...