HK P7: Why all the hype?

[9mmepiphany]

I have not found any confirming web documentation on this but I heard there were accidental discharges when users in stressful situations were pulling the trigger and the squeeze cock mechanism at the same time.


Apparently convulsively grasping the entire hand is something easy to do.

It requires a violation of the rule of keeping your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

Squeezing the cocker...cocking the gun...should occur prior to taking the trigger finger off the frame and placing it on the trigger. It should require two distinct decisions

 

[usp9]

Apparently convulsively grasping the entire hand is something easy to do.

My personal experience with the P7 is the opposite. Squeezing both the grip and trigger at the same time to me is unnatural and awkward. Squeezing the trigger and then the grip are even more so.

In any event, pulling the trigger on any gun, calling it a ND and then blaming the gun just seems wrong.

 

[rellascout]

I love the HK P7 apologists.... It is not that people are blaming the P7 for NDs they are simply pointing out the obvious. It is a unique manual of arms. One which like all manual of arms must be trained to the point of muscle memory to be properly and effectively operated under stress.

IMHO is that the uniqueness of the action design contributes to shooter error. If you are a hard core HK P7... shooter than your training and muscle memory makes these a comfortable shooter. If it is a novelty gun which is not shot often NDs can be created.

 

[Dobe]

This is done by keeping the trigger finger on the frame while squeezing. That eliminates any chance of sympathetic contratctions causing an ND. The squeeze is performed after the draw, and before sight alignment. Actually, keeping the finger safely away from the trigger is the standard anyway.

It's a non issue, really. I love the P7, especially the M8. My biggest complaint about this platform is that it heats up so quickly and drastically, it makes it difficult to practice with anything more than 80-100 rounds without a cooling down period.

 

[gym]

Getting back to the original question, "why the hype", there is far less "hype" now that anytime prior to now. Used to be a P7 at a Gun show, would draw a crowd. Now it's merley a must have for any true collector or anyone interested in the engineering of how things work and why some work better than others. One can say Glock, why the hype or Keltec or any other weapon for that matter. Sometimes a little investigating can go a long way and take you on a journey through the past while teaching you how we got to the present.

 

[aryfrosty]

P7s

It appears that the posters who are speaking about the "NDs" occuring when the grip and trigger are squeezed at the same time have neither fired nor owned a P7. There is listed in the owner's manual a method of "double action" firing of the pistol which is holding the trigger to the rear and squeezing the grip simultaneously. I don't think anyone could overstress the absolute neccessity of reading the manual or, at least, being well briefed on type before handling any weapon. It is irresponsible to handle any weapon without knowing what is, or will be, happening when you do. Respectfully...

 

[Nom de Forum]

What hype?

Other than a small group of fans I have not heard much hype. I was required to qualify with and carry one at one of my assignments. My experience did not make me a fan. IMO it is as much a technical dead end as mechanical magazine pistols of the late 19th century. The manual of arms is different enough from more conventional pistols to be a hinderance if it is not the only pistol you may be required to carry. The ergonomics never felt right because of years of experience with other pistols. The need to squeeze something other than the trigger is just asking for confusion that may lead to an ND. The P7 is also heavy for size compared to newer designs. It is a fascinating design for accomplishing a task that more mundane designs accomplish equally well or better. It is also a deadly reliable and accurate weapon in the hands of someone who knows how to use it and should never be considered something worthy of ridicule.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Well, I guess the P7 is something of an acquired taste, but I have definitely acquired it.

Yes, the manual of arms is unique, but it's not hard to master. And I've found it relatively easy in training to switch between the 1911 and my P7M8. A couple of years ago I took LFI-I with my P7, and it worked out just fine, although I have a lot more experience with the 1911.

One thing I particularly like about the P7 is its compactness. It's an excellent carry gun (I carry whenever I legally can). I wore it daily very comfortably during the two week I was in Arizona for the LFI-I class.

I also like its single stack design and short trigger reach. I have small hands, but the P7 fits me fine.

I now have several, and they work very well for me.

 

[Slamfire]

There is listed in the owner's manual a method of "double action" firing of the pistol which is holding the trigger to the rear and squeezing the grip simultaneously

Well that is downright confusing. You can fire the thing by holding the grip then pulling the trigger, or you can fire the thing by pulling the trigger and squeezing the grip.

It is true I do not have a squeeze cocker. As with all unusual guns, I would love to play with one.

But now learning that there are two ways to get the thing to shoot, I will bet that ND's happened when someone got confused on the sequence.

 

[waterhouse]

But now learning that there are two ways to get the thing to shoot, I will bet that ND's happened when someone got confused on the sequence.

It is an awkward move to pull the trigger first and then the squeeze cocker, at least in my opinion. In any case, if someone is pulling the trigger without expecting the gun to fire then I don't think that ND can be blamed on the design of any gun.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...In any case, if someone is pulling the trigger without expecting the gun to fire then I don't think that ND can be blamed on the design of any gun.

I agree.

Any handgun of decent quality, in good repair and made by a reputable manufacturer can be managed safely. It's the responsibility of the user to know how to do so and to conduct himself accordingly.

 

[atblis]

So everyone that has an HK P7 seems to swear by it. What makes the P7 such a great 9mm? What does it mean by "squeeze cock"? Thanks.

The only answer to this is to find one and take a look. The concept seems neat, but once you actually feel it in action you very well might find it lacking (or you might love it). I used to think they were all that, but after having handled a few I can say they are not all that some make them out to be (H&K in general actually).

If you find a smoking deal on one, jump on it. They are well made, and unique.

 

[HKGuns]

Positives:
Extremely accurate, fixed barrel contributes
Point VERY naturally (Excepting Glock shooters)
Soft recoil
All metal (This matters to some)
Well made
Fastest to get into action
Excellent trigger
Super reliable

Negatives:
Expensive
Can get hot
Dirty gas system can cause malfunctions when shot excessively at the range.

I own two.

 

[Toml]

The slide lock releases when the grip is depressed, eliminating another control.

 

[rellascout]

It appears that the posters who are speaking about the "NDs" occuring when the grip and trigger are squeezed at the same time have neither fired nor owned a P7. There is listed in the owner's manual a method of "double action" firing of the pistol which is holding the trigger to the rear and squeezing the grip simultaneously. I don't think anyone could overstress the absolute neccessity of reading the manual or, at least, being well briefed on type before handling any weapon. It is irresponsible to handle any weapon without knowing what is, or will be, happening when you do. Respectfully...

I Own a P7 and reading the manual has nothing to do with real world actions under stress. :banghead:

They are a great design from a purely engineering standpoint and are extremely accurate. P7s are fun range toys for me nothing more. There are better guns for concealed carry or SHTF work.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Own a P7 and reading the manual has nothing to do with real world actions under stress....

What you do in the real world under stress is up to you. Of course if you don't train and practice diligently, you'll mess up. It's always your responsibility to learn how to do things right, to diligently practice doing things right, and then to do things right -- even under stress.

 

[rellascout]

What you do in the real world under stress is up to you. Of course if you don't train and practice diligently, you'll mess up. It's always your responsibility to learn how to do things right, to diligently practice doing things right, and then to do things right -- even under stress.

Right but arguing that reading a manual is the key to reacting properly under stress is absurd. The manual that comes with a P7 has ZERO to do with training practice and diligence. I could read the manual 100000000 times and it will not translate in the least to my real world actions. Kind of like posting on the internet.

Read my original post and you will see that your statement here is doing nothing but reinforcing what I have already stated. The problem with the P7 is not the design of the P7 in and of itself it is the fact it is a 1 in a million in terms of manual of arms. It is the fact people do not train enough to be familiar with it under stress.

Reading a manual will not change that......

 

[Frank Ettin]

Right but arguing that reading a manual is the key to reacting properly under stress is absurd. The manual that comes with a P7 has ZERO to do with training practice and diligence....

But you miss the point. Who said the reading the manual is the end point. It's not, of course.

But it's also absurd to suggest the manual has nothing to do with training and practice. It is, in fact the starting point. Reading the manual is the foundation for training and practice. It tells you how the gun works, and now it's up to you to use that information to train and practice to the point that you can handle the gun properly, reflexively. That's your responsibility.

...The problem with the P7 is not the design of the P7 in and of itself it is the fact it is a 1 in a million in terms of manual of arms. It is the fact people do not train enough to be familiar with it under stress....

Every gun has a unique manual of arms. The manual of arms for the P7 isn't hard; it's just different. But then, the manual of arms for a Glock is also different, as is that for the 1911 and that for Third Generation S&W auto-loaders, etc. And based on the atrocious gun handling I see all the time at the ranges I frequent, most people don't train or practice enough to handle anything well. Shame on them.

 

[rellascout]

To answer your question aryfrosty is suggesting that reading the manual as necessity. Knowing the concept of how a P7 works mechanically will not prevent an untrained individual from an ND. I love the fan boy mentally. The P7 manual of arms are simply not the same as any other gun on the market.

Glocks are not unique in their manual of arms. In fact many manufactures have copied it. How many have copied the P7?

Yes everyone should train but you are not going to convince anyone that the one of a kind action of the P7 is a similar point of comparison to other guns.

 

[Float Pilot]

I bought a P7-M8 (The American mag release variant) on Dept letterhead back in 1985.
It was about the same size as the 2.5 inch Model 19 357 Mag I was carrying in plain clothes.

It was very, very accurate. With premium ammo you could make head shots at 50 yards easily and chest shots at 100 yards were no problem.

BUT:
I made the mistake of buying a case of some sort of cheapo South American 9mm ammo to use as practice stuff. This ammo would have little flakes of metal come off from time to time and it would jam up the squeeze cocking mechanism. So it would not fire unless I totally disassembled it and cleaned the little parts inside the frame. So I lost confidence in the darn thing.

Then the second issue occurred which caused me to sell it:
A moron Lt. on my dept read an article about how the guys in the New Jersey State Police were having Stupid Discharges. Nobody had taught them how the gun worked, or actually how ANY auto-loader worked.. So the idiots were using the squeeze-cocker to drop (close) the slide and chamber a round. Which works.... BUT, if you press the trigger during that maneuver it will go off. As a result of this bad press the P7 was denied as a personal purchase weapon.

All in all they are a neat little gun.. As a plain clothes gun, or body-guard work, it would be hard to beat due to the extra measure of accuracy.

I never got a chance to try mine in super cold temps. The delicate squeeze-cocking mechanism might not like that...

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Knowing the concept of how a P7 works mechanically will not prevent an untrained individual from an ND. ....

Nothing will prevent an untrained person from messing up.

...Glocks are not unique in their manual of arms....

Not all guns require pressing the trigger prior to field stripping.

]...Yes everyone should train but you are not going to convince anyone that the one of a kind action of the P7 is a similar point of comparison to other guns.

Who's trying to convince anyone of that? In fact, the point is that the P7 is unique and must be learned and practiced. And any gun must be learned and practiced. If someone isn't smart enough to do that, it's not the gun's fault.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Not all guns require pressing the trigger prior to field stripping.

I must say that now that Glock has addressed the mis-use of their slide lock, this is the last major flaw of the Glock 9mm platform...I don't consider their hybird polygonal rifling as fatal

 

[Toml]

Using the squeeze cocker to release the slide is described in the user's manual. This is the quickest and in my opinion, preferred, method to return to battery after loading a magazine.

Also, in my opinion, the fact that the pistol will discharge if the trigger is held while this is done is another in the bag of tricks that makes this one of the fastest-to-deploy pistols made.

Understanding its capabilities is key to safety. And it is a safe weapon if handled properly.

 

[gc70]

The P7 is not a pistol that appeals to everyone, but I don't know a pistol that does. The P7 does have a unique manual or arms and shooters must learn to use the P7 safely and effectively, as is true for any gun. For some, the manual of arms is a nearly insurmountable problem, but for me it is (to paraphrase a P7 brochure) nearly as simple and natural as breathing.

The P7 is heavy for its size at 30 ounces and its balance is different from most pistols, being light at the muzzle and heavy at the grips (that aspect reminds me of a Luger). The gas system eliminates the need for a Browning-style tilting barrel, resulting in enhanced accuracy from a fixed barrel and a slide that is not nearly as tall as on most pistols. The short slide height contributes to a low bore axis, while allowing a full-length grip on a pistol that is only 5" tall. The unusual magazine insertion angle results in rounds feeding nearly straight into the chamber. Because the magazine feeds from further back in the gun than is typical, the P7 can accommodate a 4.13" barrel in a gun with a 6.54" overall length.

As to how the P7 can fire, the P7 Armorers Course provides the following information:

Firing the pistol accomplished in three ways
• Squeeze the squeeze cocker, pull the trigger
• Pull the trigger, squeeze the squeeze cocker
• Pull the trigger and squeeze the squeeze cocker at the same time
• Firing is not sequence critical

 

[springwalk]

Seems most that have a negative reaction towards the P7 should actually give one a try. I can honestly say of all the pistols I've owned in many makes and variations that the original P7-PSP is the most finely innovative and natural extension of use than any pistol, even our beloved Glocks. Would you believe the P7 actually has a slightly lower bore to hand axis than the Glock? Seems impossible but when I compare my G26 in one hand to the P7 in the other the P7 slide nearly touches into the rippled web of my hand. The P7 is easily more accurate than all 9mms made with maybe the exception of the super expensive target Sig P210. Its flat concealability and light safe trigger are unrivaled. Sure, you can buy 2 glocks for the price of one P7 and have a couple more rounds in your Glock, but I can say with the spectacular accuracy of the P7 you dont need high capacity.