HK P7: Why all the hype?

[springwalk]

Glock 19 ISN'T a particularily above average 9mm pistol in accuracy. Just average. I can say in my experience the baby 26 is a tad more accurate than the 19 for me. The P7 easily beats the 19 hands down in accuracy. As for hi capacity theres very few cases of conceal carry citizens or even cops for that matter in needing more ammo than what the P7 holds during shoot outs. If your a bad shot then....maybe you need the 33 round mags. The exchange of accuracy for greater capacity is hardly a sound decision. If you cant afford a HK P7 theres nothing wrong with a new $495 Glock. Glocks are great budget guns, but not the pistol like the legendary P7.

 

[gym]

I think it's a beautiful classic firearm, but I would not carry it for my carry. It is too heavy, lacks capacity for a 9mm, and is too large and as mentioned expensive for mags. I see a 9, other than a BUG, as a minimum of 10 rounds wit ability for 15-17 in my reload. also anything over 21 ozs is out, only because once you include 15 rounds it just gets to heavy and hard to conceal unless you are a working pro. It is one of the prettiest and accurate 9mm pistold ever made, but so was the luger in it's day, times change, now you can pick up an FN on sale that holds 17 rounds for 4 and change. And get the bells and whistles thrown in, deccker, night sites, ambi safety etc. And you can get it in 40 or 45, A 9 is not a 45, not to debate this again but it's just a bigger hole. Just like a 32 to a 38, big is betterfor a duty weapon. I would love to have one and probablly will one day when the right deal comes along. Till then I have enough 9mm pistols. It's like the walther ppk's is, beautiful but outdated

 

[springwalk]

The P7's downfall is not its superb accuracy, all steel construction, super low bore axis, very small size with a 4"+ barrel, flat as a pancake profile, ingenious design that never fails or pinnacle of safety to fire transition. Its that for HK to manufacture the pistol its cost out weighs todays market demand for a quality steel pistol. Americans, who are by far the biggest consumers of handguns in the world today are often budget minded and dont appreciate quality. Most Americans have alot of junk, imo. American gun manufacturers make just budget crap today, including S&W. Today Americans would rather buy a plastic budget gun like a Glock that holds hi-capacity and then add a bunch of tacti-cool plastic lights and gadgetry to it. Just go to any gun store or show and 95% of all current guns made today are plastic or aluminum slapped together. Even Sig is slowly putting more plastic in their "classic" line. First it was just the hammer stop block, then it was the mainspring housing catch, now Sig is putting plastic recoil guide rods in their $1,000 pistols. Theres not too much made today that excites me. I seem to be looking to the past more and more these days for quality arms.

 

[918v]

The superb accuracy claims don't hold water in light of published magazine article data and my own testing.

 

[Balrog]

As for hi capacity theres very few cases of conceal carry citizens or even cops for that matter in needing more ammo than what the P7 holds during shoot outs.

Actually, if you look at it from a purely statistical point of view, chances are, you probably don't need to carry any handgun at all. So why not just leave the P7 at home?

I do think the P7 is more accurate than the Glock 19, but only marginally so, and it is only important at the range. From a practical standpoint, I don't see there being enough differnce to matter if you are involved in a shooting.

 

[918v]

Not a chance.

A P7 averages 3" groups at 25 yards with combat loads. So does a Glock 19.

 

[springwalk]

10 years ago I had a P7 M8 (American New Jersey version) that didnt quite live up to the legendary accuracy of the German original P7/PSP version. Yet even the Americanized M8 version generally out shoots the Glock any day in the hands of most. The Sig 226 & P6 fall short of competing with the early P-7s in accuracy. Now if you put the P7 up against a $3,000 refined Sig 210 or my P220 Combat 45acp w/5" barrel then you have a close match In my experience the 45acp cartridge will generally always beat a 9mm all things being equal in accuracy. For a 9mm to compete with the 45acp you need a fixed barrel like the P7 or a super refined & expensive piece like the P210. Perfection7=P7.

 

[918v]

What was so special about the original P7 that the P7M8 did not have? They both had fixed barrels.

BTW, I agree with your assessment. Stephen Camp has shot some amazing groups with his PSP. I could never get my P7M8 to shoot like that.

 

[springwalk]

981, I think maybe the Germans didnt hold the same strict standard with the M8 as they did with the P7/PSP? I can say too the new M8 I had wasnt as accurate as the P7. The slide to frame fit on the M8 was sloppy like how Glocks typically are. The P7 I have now which is over 30 years old is tighter than any Sig I've had and nearly as tight as a custom 1911. Of course with a fixed barrel that shouldnt matter too much with the P7, but the sights are on the slide and too much slop will affect accuracy to some degree. Maybe the M8 specs were opened up and ok'd by American importers and police departments for the American market for a typical service standard of sort, thereby sacrificing the original accuracy standards? All that aside I think the original version state of the P7 PSP was solid, until America/New Jersey police wanted to fiddle with perfection and demand a needless feature (mag release location)to resemble the outdated and beloved 1911. I dont like the American mag release(making a thicker grip), larger trigger guard and lanyard loop which all increase the size of the pistol a bit. I dont need to mention the aweful "warning" printed on the M8 either. I seem to recall the M8 also has a plastic trigger to go along with matching finger shield. The trigger on my 1980 P7PSP is much lighter than my 2000 P7M8. Maybe the Germans were insulted by us demanding changes in their P7 so they dropped their strict standards on the American M8 and sent us a few lemons.

 

[usp9]

Maybe the Germans were insulted by us demanding changes in their P7 so they dropped their strict standards on the American M8 and sent us a few lemons.

I doubt it. The Germans were actively attempting to win the pistol competition in the early '80s which led to the Army choosing the Beretta M9. The P7M13 performed very well in these tests, right up to the end. What a different world it would have been if only HK had won? Ahhhh, we can only dream...

 

[Pilot]

My P7M8 is every bit as accurate as my surplus P7 PSP. However, I do prefer the heal mag release on the PSP for concealed carry.

 

[Balrog]

What a different world it would have been if only HK had won?

Equipping the Army with the P7 would have been a gross waste of taxpayer money.

 

[918v]

My P7M8 is every bit as accurate as my surplus P7 PSP. However, I do prefer the heal mag release on the PSP for concealed carry.

What does that mean? How did you test them?

 

[918v]

The slide to frame fit on the M8 was sloppy like how Glocks typically are. The P7 I have now which is over 30 years old is tighter than any Sig I've had and nearly as tight as a custom 1911. Of course with a fixed barrel that shouldnt matter too much with the P7, but the sights are on the slide and too much slop will affect accuracy to some degree.

On my P7M8 the back of the slide returned to the same spot on the frame every time, despite the slop, so that wasn't the problem. The front of the slide rode the barrel. Maybe the sloppy slide interfered with the resonance voodoo of the gun?

 

[usp9]

Equipping the Army with the P7 would have been a gross waste of taxpayer money.

One can logiacally assume that the costs would have come down a bit with the addition of an initial 400,000 unit order, as well as the many follow on orders, both from the military and the many LE agencies that would have followed. Who knows the final cost. Perhaps the robust nature and long life of the P7 may have actually lowered costs. Hmmm?? I see a $400 M8... maybe???

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

You either love them, or think they are so-so.

Wrong. I think they are uglier than Glocks.

 

[Balrog]

One can logiacally assume that the costs would have come down a bit with the addition of an initial 400,000 unit order, as well as the many follow on orders, both from the military and the many LE agencies that would have followed. Who knows the final cost. Perhaps the robust nature and long life of the P7 may have actually lowered costs. Hmmm?? I see a $400 M8... maybe???

Do you believe in Unicorns and Fairies also?

 

[918v]

I don't understand why the P7 was so expensive. The frame was a casting. All the small parts were stamped. The slide was a two-piece welded assembly, etc. Maybe the sheer number of small parts and the necessary QC drove up the cost.

 

[harmon rabb]

Not a chance.

I'm willing to bet that if you put them both in a ransom rest, they'd test to be about the same.

When people talk about the accuracy of the P7, I think they're really talking about the shootability -- i.e. how well they can shoot it verses their other guns.

 

[harmon rabb]

If you cant afford a HK P7 theres nothing wrong with a new $495 Glock. Glocks are great budget guns, but not the pistol like the legendary P7.

We allow emotion to color our opinion of guns. In any purely logical world, a Glock slaughters the P7. Cheaper, just as reliable (if not more), just as rugged (if not more), lighter, higher capacity, will last just as long (if not more).

But a Glock is ugly and soulless. So, we have people who think like you do (note that I love 1911's, and would like to own a P7 some day. but i understand that i buy and like guns for reasons that aren't purely logical, because if i did, i'd just own a bunch of glocks and be done with it).

 

[springwalk]

The average conservative male is cheap when it comes to buying firearms. The rule is quantity over quality. Another apt comparison is the legendary Hammerli .22 pistol 208 family that holds a world record in accuracy. They cost well north of $2,000 with superb craftmanship, exacting standards and top tier accuracy. The American market doesnt appreciate the standard of excellance, so not too many were imported. Our market demanded a cheap version for under $400= Sig Trailside. Plastic and pop metal. The Trailside though a great copied design that satisfied some is still junk in my book. I got one when they first came out back when I got the M8 and it too was not very impressive nor reliable. Ya get what ya pay for as they say. If all you have is $495 and want a new pistol your stuck with tupperware that has average accuracy. Anyway, its a bit silly comparing budget tupperware(Glock) to a quality pistol of excellance like the P7 or Sig 210.

 

[918v]

Not silly at all. The P7 is not the Hammerli of 9mm combat pistols. Sig p210 takes that title, having been made by... guess who? It is just another German crunchenticker no better or worse than Sig Sauer, Walther, etc.

 

[gc70]

I must be missing something about costs. While it is true that the last retail price of a P7M8 was very high, current prices for a surplus P7 and a Glock are about the same.

 

[918v]

But you are comparing a 30-year-old used surplus gun (P7), cost of materials, labor and all, to a new one (Glock).

 

[gc70]

The comparison is not of cost, which was clearly originally substantially more for a P7 than a Glock, but of current prices, since many seem to be under the impression that a P7 is much more expensive than a Glock ("Sure, you can buy 2 glocks for the price of one P7 ...").