Huge news in IL (CCW, removal of Chicago AWB)
- Thread starter Trent
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Having the right to carry finally is great however, itsa crappy bill and as someone an ar15.com stated its a "chess game" for Madigan or the Madigans. There is also a hi cap mag ban in the works and possibly pushing for awb again after ccw takes effect.
Only speaking to the cost issue, I would voice that over here in Missouri, I paid $125 for the permit application/background checks to the local police. Average class cost for a 1 day class, including 140 rounds of ammo seems to run $125-150, and they book up several months in advance. I only paid $50 because I did it through the club where I am a member, but provided my own ammo and guns.
After sitting through the class, I can honestly say that I am glad it is required. Yes I am huge supported of constitutional rights. At the same time if training reduces incidents that bring bad PR to all gun owners, I am all for it.
Primarily I suppose I am saying that although the cost and training requirements are a little steep, it does not seem terrible. Cannot comment on the other aspects.
After sitting through the class, I can honestly say that I am glad it is required. Yes I am huge supported of constitutional rights. At the same time if training reduces incidents that bring bad PR to all gun owners, I am all for it.
Primarily I suppose I am saying that although the cost and training requirements are a little steep, it does not seem terrible. Cannot comment on the other aspects.
16 hours of classroom is a bit much. If you look at what the bill requires, for training, I see maybe 5-6 hours of material tops, and that's if I stretch it out. I could put students through a series of dry fire practicals, and stretch it some more.. but by the 9th or 10th hour I'm going to run out of things to talk about. I will cover the laws, but giving legal advice is not allowed so 'what if' questions will have to be carefully addressed.
The requirements of the class follow:
(b) An applicant for a new license shall provide proof of
16 completion of a firearms training course or combination of
17 courses approved by the Department of at least 16 hours, which
18 includes range qualification time under subsection (c) of this
19 Section, that covers the following:
20 (1) firearm safety;
21 (2) the basic principles of marksmanship;
22 (3) care, cleaning, loading, and unloading of a
23 concealable firearm;
24 (4) all applicable State and federal laws relating to
25 the ownership, storage, carry, and transportation of a
1 firearm; and
2 (5) instruction on the appropriate and lawful
3 interaction with law enforcement while transporting or
4 carrying a concealed firearm.
#1 I can MAYBE stretch to two hours, max.
#2 I can do in 2 hours, max, if I use the NRA guidelines, do practicals, etc.
#3 Cleaning? I can't do a 2 hour presentation on cleaning. Maybe 1 hour?
#4 Laws can be covered in a couple of hours, with Q&A. Remember I'm not a lawyer and can't offer legal advice, so I have to tread very carefully on deadly force.
#5 is a 2 minute lecture. "If the cop asks if you have a concealed firearm, you have a duty to inform."
Throw in the range live fire and this is an 8 hour course.
Not sure WHAT I would fill in the second day with. Strategy and tactics?
The 16 hour requirement is going to raise the cost of the training to an unacceptable level for many people. I was thinking of charging $100 for an 8 hour class when CCW passes in some form. 16 hours is going to raise the cost to $150 to $200. So besides the $150 to the ISP you are going to add $150 to $200 for the cost of the training. That's not going to count the cost of ammunition.
Then there is the issue of electronic fingerprints. You can't just go anywhere in the state to get them. Even if your local law enforcement agency has the capability they might not have bought the module that allows them to submit fingerprints for background checks. Places that are doing electronic fingerprints for background checks for people who work in the schools are charging up to $40.00.
I'm guessing total cash outlay to get a CCW under this bill to be $350.00 +
It's not a good bill and we shouldn't accept it.
Then there is the issue of electronic fingerprints. You can't just go anywhere in the state to get them. Even if your local law enforcement agency has the capability they might not have bought the module that allows them to submit fingerprints for background checks. Places that are doing electronic fingerprints for background checks for people who work in the schools are charging up to $40.00.
I'm guessing total cash outlay to get a CCW under this bill to be $350.00 +
It's not a good bill and we shouldn't accept it.
razorback2003
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This CHL bill is pretty bad. It has way too many places you can't carry a gun. There is also no honoring of other states' licenses.
Training costs up-state are traditionally higher. I've seen NRA basic pistol (8 hours) cost $150 or more up North. PPITH even more, which is also an 8 hour course (although completing it in 8 hours is nigh impossible, so much material to cover). I would not doubt for one minute we will see 16 hour classes listed costing $300 in many areas, and those classes will still be PACKED for the foreseeable future.
Now factor in both husband and wife (or partners, or whatever), now you have doubled that expense. With a median family income in my area of $33,000, that's a tall order for most families. 3% or more of annual income to get set up to be allowed to carry... many will be excluded due to finances.
As you pointed out, Electronic fingerprints are another problem. I don't think any of my local PD's are set up for it. Failure to submit fingerprints results in another 30 day wait to your app. The way the bill is worded the ISP *can* make those mandatory if they *choose*.
Finally notarization requirements on a simple change of address, and other similar things, add even more hidden costs and time to get everything in order.
Phatty
Member
Double that amount for me because I'll be paying for my wife as well. Unfortunately, the State doesn't offer a family plan discount.
Edit: Just saw that Trent pointed out this same thing first.
sixgunner455
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I don't know whether you should accept it or not, but hear me out on something.
When I got my AZ CCW class, it was 16hrs. I paid $65 - that was what the instructor decided to charge. Every seat in the class was full, including my wife's, and two of our friends that we dragged along. 4 people got CCW instruction so they could get permits for only a bit more than what you said you will charge for a 16hr class for one person.
The training requirement here is 8hrs now. And the guy that I paid 4x$65 still charges $65/person for the class.
Another guy in our county charges $25/person. Guess who certifies more CCW permitees?
I guess people will have to decide what their priorities are.
armoredman
Member
I remember the 16 hour AZ course - I was class #10 at Jensens. My boss even gave me time off to do it.
The one way they figured out to stretch the time was the qualifications, fewer students on the line at the time meant two things - more people waiting longer and better one on one instruction. We also had local cops talking about the laws...without really knowing what they were talking about, but hey, it was the first month we HAD the process, so it took some shaking out. The thing we had was a building majority of committed members of legislature such as Senator Peirce who made sure bills improving the law went through every session. If you have that, and keep electing that, it will help a lot. Second advantage which you don't have is our governorship changes hands once in a while to pro rights politicians, like when we kicked Nappy out to go to D.C. and Gov Brewer signed Constitutional Carry. IL seems to lack that advantage. Also we had it codified in law of the recognition of lawful open carry since the state was founded, and I understand IL hasn't had that since the turn of the last century.
Yes, we made it happened down here, (I did do a little to help over years), and you can do it to, but don't blind yourself - you have some high cards in the other guys hand, The Chicago Machine being the Ace of Spades...can you beat it? If the answer is yes, then go for it.
The one way they figured out to stretch the time was the qualifications, fewer students on the line at the time meant two things - more people waiting longer and better one on one instruction. We also had local cops talking about the laws...without really knowing what they were talking about, but hey, it was the first month we HAD the process, so it took some shaking out. The thing we had was a building majority of committed members of legislature such as Senator Peirce who made sure bills improving the law went through every session. If you have that, and keep electing that, it will help a lot. Second advantage which you don't have is our governorship changes hands once in a while to pro rights politicians, like when we kicked Nappy out to go to D.C. and Gov Brewer signed Constitutional Carry. IL seems to lack that advantage. Also we had it codified in law of the recognition of lawful open carry since the state was founded, and I understand IL hasn't had that since the turn of the last century.
Yes, we made it happened down here, (I did do a little to help over years), and you can do it to, but don't blind yourself - you have some high cards in the other guys hand, The Chicago Machine being the Ace of Spades...can you beat it? If the answer is yes, then go for it.
I don't know what the economics are for the Arizona class. I do know that I have to buy training materials and handouts, insurance, provide a safe place to shoot, a classroom, loaner weapons and ammunition for the same (my experience teaching other classes tells me people sometimes show up with inoperable weapons). Looking at what other trainers are charging for the Utah class in this area, I thik my numbers are pretty much spot on.
Phatty
Member
We go over the cliff, at least temporarily.
Color me skeptical but I don't think this is over until the fat lady sings. We haven't seen the end of the Chicago games. Wonder what gem of an executive amendatory veto the governor will throw back at them? An assault weapons ban rider? A magazine ban?
They will have no choice but to pass it if they want to avoid constitutional carry. All they need is enough votes to BLOCK an override when it comes back, and Madigan probably has that in his back pocket.
Just saying, we can still get stabbed in the back here.
They will have no choice but to pass it if they want to avoid constitutional carry. All they need is enough votes to BLOCK an override when it comes back, and Madigan probably has that in his back pocket.
Just saying, we can still get stabbed in the back here.
Maybe they will kill it in the senate.
threefeathers
member
We do our 8 hour course in AZ for the Pima County Parks and Rec department and are thinking seriously about making it a 2 day course. At least half of the students who apply for a CCW License have NO real idea how to use a gun under anything approaching a stressful situation. What I do is use the drills we learned from Mas Ayoob, Marty Hayes, in developing our 2 day course at Ft. Huachuca.
Last week in our class in a small AZ border town we stayed and worked with 4 people on the range so they wold at least be able to handle a firearm safely. We then will not graduate another couple until they take our 7 hour safety course.
Last week in our class in a small AZ border town we stayed and worked with 4 people on the range so they wold at least be able to handle a firearm safely. We then will not graduate another couple until they take our 7 hour safety course.
For those who don't understand what I meant by an amendatory veto...
If Quinn tacks on a magazine or assault weapons ban, or changes it to a may issue bill, we could end up with a statewide assault weapons / magazine ban or nasty may issue carry, on a simple majority affirmative.
To restore the full original text would take a supermajority (which we don't have).
Lacking either, the bill dies.
If Quinn tacks on a magazine or assault weapons ban, or changes it to a may issue bill, we could end up with a statewide assault weapons / magazine ban or nasty may issue carry, on a simple majority affirmative.
To restore the full original text would take a supermajority (which we don't have).
Lacking either, the bill dies.
Blackbeard
Member
I don't read it as saying that crafting a bill extends the stay. The way it's worded, it give a 180 day stay, and states that the purpose of the 180 days is to allow them time to craft a bill. Not that crafting a new law reverses the court's decision or stays the enforcement of it indefinitely.
Yeah, I would agree with that. It doesn't appear to be conditional.
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