Is 380 Just A Marginal Round?

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Well, my response to AustinTX is simply that if one-shot stopping power and overall lethality were the only measure of a gun's worth, we'd all be carrying battle rifles or shotguns. Yes, there are cases where folks get shot and keep on coming, but there are far more cases where no shot is fired, one or more shots are fired but don't hit, or the opponent is non-fatally wounded and retreats or surrenders. Guns aren't magic and if you have to use it you want the most effective one possible, but any gun is better than nothing at all. Caliber, size, and type decisions are influenced by far more than just stopping power.
 
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Deaf Smith said:
Yes it is. But a easy shooting gun chambered in it helps alot.

Like a SIG 232sl, or Beretta 84, or Makarov.

They fit the hand well, point well, good triggers, and can take +p all day.

But those little mouseguns, like the Ruger LCP, or Taurus TCP, are much harder to shoot.
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This sums up my thoughts, too. Personally I think the .380 is marginal. No, I am not volunteering to be shot by one but I don't want to get shot by an airsoft either for that matter. Under ideal circumstances it will get the job done.

It's hard to separate the .380 round though from the guns it's usually encountered in. If you have a largish, easy shooting .380 like the Beretta 84 or the Mak it's going to work a bit better. But it seems we normally see it in little guns like the LCP or the Kel-Tec. It seems to me that it compounds the negatives when you take a round that's borderline to begin with and chamber it in a gun that's difficult to shoot under the best of conditions.

Still though, the first rule of gunfighting is have a gun...;)
 
Yes, I think it could be considered as marginal but also effective , depending upon the gun, ammo selection, and the proficiency of the shooter.
 
Is .380 just a marginal round ? People say yes I say no provided one knows it's advantages and limitations.

In the hands of someone who knows how to use it I would think it's downright lethal. This is another caliber pissing match.
 
And how does that relate to what people shoot?
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I'm not so concerned with your statement about what you see people shooting at the range it's the conclusions you're drawing from them.
I've only shot 150 rounds through my LCP in 2 outings in the time I've had it, assuming I can't shoot it well would be a costly mistake.
 
mavracer said:
I'm not so concerned with your statement about what you see people shooting at the range it's the conclusions you're drawing from them.
I've only shot 150 rounds through my LCP in 2 outings in the time I've had it, assuming I can't shoot it well would be a costly mistake.
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Thanks for helping to make my point.
 
kokapelli said:
Thanks for helping to make my point.
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I don't really see how he helped make your point. I shoot my TCP quite frequently. I was just at the range a couple days ago shooting it and there was a young woman also shooting a 380. A couple of my friends only have 380's and they shoot regularly. One of the gun ranges here in town has a defensive pistol shoot and there are a couple people that shoot a .380 in the match. There is a pretty good reason why you don't see many people shooting 380's, the fact that there are far more 9mm, .40, .38 and .45 handguns than .380.
 
I have to agree with post #54. The .22 L.R. can be very deadly in the right hands! There are some fine small caliber handguns out there & in the right hands will kill as well as a big caliber. Knowing the limits & advantages of the gun can make all the difference one needs. The .380acp. is a fine round. The light recoil in the right gun can make it very lethal in the right hands. Shot placement is crucial,but there are several very accurate .380acp.s out there. It was the standard military & police rd. in Europe for years. It is still very popular for a good reason. It works!
 
Yeah, the .380 is a marginal round compared to a 9mm. Many say the 9mm is marginal compared to a 45 cal. Most agree handguns are marginal compared to rifles which are marginal compared to 50 cal machine guns which are marginal compared to.....
 
Most people that shoot 9, 40 and 45 practice a lot more than the average 380 shooter
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Maybe yes, maybe no. Recently, I have noted a lot more .380 brass on the ground at my local range lately. And I mean a lot.
And since I now own and load for .380 that is just fine with me. :)
 
The guys that put the most faith in mass shoot .45 of one type or another.

The velocity fans go with 9mm and .40.

.380 ACP has neither.

It's a gun, it's better than nothing. I'd take it over a sharp stick any day of the week. But choosing it over a larger caliber is choosing, well, less.
 
cluttonfred said:
Well, my response to AustinTX is simply that if one-shot stopping power and overall lethality were the only measure of a gun's worth, we'd all be carrying battle rifles or shotguns. Yes, there are cases where folks get shot and keep on coming, but there are far more cases where no shot is fired, one or more shots are fired but don't hit, or the opponent is non-fatally wounded and retreats or surrenders. Guns aren't magic and if you have to use it you want the most effective one possible, but any gun is better than nothing at all. Caliber, size, and type decisions are influenced by far more than just stopping power.
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And I'm not arguing against any of that. None of that has anything to do with my objection. My primary CCW is a 9mm, and my secondary CCW is a .380.

My objection is only that the all-too-common rhetorical device of "If ___ is so weak, how about you volunteer to get shot with it, huh?" and its variants are useless and probative of exactly nothing, because everyone is aware that any caliber is capable of causing serious injury or death. Beyond that, no one is going to volunteer for a whole host of other unpleasant experiences even though they would stand very little chance of stopping a determined attacker, like the ones I previously listed.
 
JamieC said:
Yeah, the .380 is a marginal round compared to a 9mm. Many say the 9mm is marginal compared to a 45 cal. Most agree handguns are marginal compared to rifles which are marginal compared to 50 cal machine guns which are marginal compared to.....
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It's not marginal compared to another round so much as marginal compared to an objective, measurable performance standard. One can argue whether the FBI standard is reliable or valid but the standard itself outlines clear guidelines. Virtually not .380 round available circle 3/2015 meets this standard for penetration with expansion. So it's not a question of whether or not a rifle is better than a pistol or a .50 BMG, it's whether a given round meets a minimum performance standard.

People aren't made of ord gel of course, but gel tests provide an objective way to measure what a bullet will do.

Ball ammo from a .380 can penetrate well but doesn't expand. Most expanding rounds from a .380 will open up but no penetrate consistently. That's why it's often called marginal-it's not reliable. Sometimes it will work (and by work we mean a certain amount of penetration and expansion) and sometimes it won't.

Obviously there's a lot of variables involved in stopping power. I'm just referring to terminal ballistics here.
 
Phaedrus - check out the link I posted on the first page. You'll see that there is 380 ammo that will penetrate beyond FBI minimums and expand reliably.
 
Just a note for those that do not look at the Rifle board.

Someone up there has reported that HiPoint plans to release a .380 version of their carbine.

Many up there think this silly but I think HiPoint is cashing in on the "recent" popularity of .380 handguns by offering a carbine companion for all the folks causing the 9x19 mm folks to curse by dropping all that "short" brass on the ranges of the US. Some have speculated they will also offer this carbine in places where civilians are limited to .380 by law.

I wonder how many of their own .380 pistol HiPoint has sold. I wonder how many Davis and Davis cousins in .380 are out there. I'll bet the folks that own that sort of night stand gun out number those of us using the high priced spreads.

I think the "marginal" question is moot for a large percentage of folks that have the .380 because it is all they have.

A .380 beats a hoot and holler hands down, a pointy stick by ten to one and might just have to do.

-kBob
 
Only places I can think where .380 is the limit by law is South America. Sure ain't in the USA.

As for stopping power, Massad Ayoob and others for years tallied actual shootings, autopsies, and police reports. There findings are well published. There is a correlation between cartridge power, construction, and placement and the ability to deliver one shot stops.

Yes larger diameter bullets TEND to stop better. Faster bullets TEND to stop better. JHP constructed bullets TEND to stop better. Shot placement TENDS to produce more one shot stops.

But no handgun cartridge/platform has reached the 100 percent, even the vaulted .357 Magnum.

You are wise to pick the largest caliber, highest speed producing handgun with the better constructed bullets THAT YOU CAN CONTROL and still be able to carry daily.

And I'll add one that you can control one handed.

Deaf
 
Let's not forget .380 makes the same size hole as 9mm Luger. And that shot placement trumps all.

I've got a cop buddy that works da hood in a medium sized city. He tells me he's seen more people killed with .32 and .380 than any other caliber. Apparently they're effective.
 
Deaf Smith has a truly valid point. No matter how lethal a particular caliber, or bullet is, one MUST be able to control it for it to be effective.

It's really very simple.

1) Have the will to survive.
2) Have a gun.
3) Have a gun in the largest caliber the shooter can control.

The rest all resumes that the first three are in place.

Dress code restrictions, physical disabilities, and various diseases can all require adaptation to insure that numbers 2 and 3 are in place. Threatening some one with the monster gun in your glove-box, in the Parking Garage, is a notable failure most of the time.

To the dedicated shooter, bigger is inevitably better. To those who regard guns as emergency tools only, that isn't true. It's much more important to them to be armed than to quibble over caliber and capacity.

The FBI protocols are a political statement as much as anything else. Several agencies, such as the Border Patrol, and the Secret Service, have detailed different protocols, and use them today. The FBI protocols, like these others, were designed for THEIR scenarios. That others may not have the same conditions doesn't matter to the FBI. Remember, as well, that only a couple of the rounds used by the FBI, and only recently, actually meet all of the requirements, even though they have been in use since these protocols were developed. That has to say something about the practical aspects of the protocols.:banghead:
 
JR47 said:
The FBI protocols are a political statement as much as anything else. Several agencies, such as the Border Patrol, and the Secret Service, have detailed different protocols, and use them today. The FBI protocols, like these others, were designed for THEIR scenarios.
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I would be very interested in the Boarder Patrol and the Secret Service protocols, do you have any links to them?
 
I don't want to get shot with a .380. I'd rather have something more powerful than a .380 in my hands if I were in a gun fight. I have two .380s and I bought a .380 for my daughter so I'm not against the .380 but I'm a long way from being a fan of the .380. I prefer .357 magnum or more powerful.
 
No one ever wished for a less ammo or a smaller gun once the shooting started.

Yes a .380 in one's hand is better than the .500 in the safe but we have far better choices than that.

Since I don't have to wear Speedos and t-shirts for daily wear then a small 9mm or .38 is not that hard to pack.

Deaf
 
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