Is The 45ACP Too Slow?

[gun addict]

man Osama Bin Ladin shoudl've consulted with you on home defense psyschack

 

[1911Tuner]

I was visiting a friend in the guard shack one night at Forsyth Memorial in Winston-Salem when a guy came into the ER with a gunshot wound in the upper arm about halfway between the elbow and shoulder. His wife shot him through a solid wooden door with .45 hardball. The bullet passed through the door...his upper arm, shattering the bone...broke a rib...and bruised his lung. Word was that he came very close to being an amputee.

 

[ttheel]

Just a few .45 ACP stud loads:

Double Tap +P 185 gr JHP - 1225 fps, 616 ft lbs of energy
Double Tap 230 gr JHP - 1010 fps, 521 ft lbs of energy
Buffalo Bore +P 185 gr JHP - 1150 fps, 543 ft lbs of energy
Buffalo Bore +P 230 gr JHP - 950 fps, 461 ft lbs of energy
Corbon +P 185 gr JHP - 1150 fps, 543 ft lbs of energy
Corbon +P 200 gr JHP - 1050 fps, 490 ft lbs of energy
Corbon +P 165 gr JHP - 1250 fps, 573 ft lbs of energy
Gold Dot +P 200 gr JHP - 1080 fps, 518 ft lbs of energy
Hornady +P 200 gr JHP - 1055 fps, 494 ft lbs of energy

I just aint seeing any problem with .45 performance folks. And I am not a 9mm hater. One of my favorites is my SIG
P228. But I love my .45 and feel I am in the best hands with that big bullet. My actual defense load of choice in my Dan Wesson VBOB is the 230 gr Double Tap.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

If you can't outrun a .45, it's not THAT slow.

 

[Sulaco]

Turn off the computer and go outside and do some shooting!

 

[amprecon]

Well, if you ever caught the Future weapons show where Mac is peppering the dummy inside a car through the car door with the KRISS Super-V from about 20 yards, you'll be convinced the .45 is plenty powerful. Those rounds at that distance went through the door and through the dummy. I lok-it-alot.

 

[357SIG]

I have been trying to figure out which caliber to stick with and I can't settle on one. I have been comparing ballistics with what I've read and how I feel about particular calibers and it seems like they all have their ups and downs. Can anyone confirm, deny, or elaborate on the following?

1) The 45ACP is too slow to penetrate barriers(doors, windshields, walls) and still cause enough damage.

2) 9mm is too weak to end a fight quickly and it tends to over penetrate.

3) 10mm (Glocks ...) seem to blow up frequently, ammo is very expensive, and it doesn't offer much ballistic advantage over the 40 S&W (in factory loads...).

4) 357 SIG ammo is hard to find, expensive, and runs at a higher pressure than many other calibers causing the guns to wear out quicker.

5) 40 S&W has a decent amount of recoil, making follow up shots and target acquisition take longer. Also, compared to the 9mm, the ammo is more expensive and you don't gain much more of a ballistic advantage (kinetic energy...).

That is all that I can think of right now. Those are some concerns that I have with each caliber, again from what I've read and how I feel. I don't mean to offend anyone's favorite caliber, etc, I'm just hoping that you guys can give me your $0.02.

Thanks,

1. Most pistol rounds have a hard time getting through tough barriers while retaining the bulk of their weight, their trajectory, energy, etc. Some barriers are just hard to shoot through. Auto glass, due to its angle and toughness, can easily deflect a bullet while only allowing a small area of cracks in the glass (as if a rock hit it and bounced off). 9mm FMJ is an exceptional penetrator, but not often used for defense by CCWers.

2. 9mm FMJ penetrates more than most. 9mm JHPs generally do the same as .40, .45, etc. No better, no worse.

3. 10mm doesn't have to be a Glock. 10mm in watered-down loadings is really no better than the .40 for anything. Again, the common SD rounds between 9mm and .45 all perform the same way, just with hair-splitting differences in diameter.

4. 357 is at Wal-Mart now. Not too hard to find. I've not been to a serious gun shop that doesn't stock it, and premium rounds cost the same as .40, in my experience. have you read about a lot of broken 357 SIG pistols lately?

5. You don't gain any true, real life advantage between any of the common SD calibers. Sorry if anyone else in this thread gets upset at this, but it's true. Too many variables in both human physiology and shootings to ever realize the small differences (or count on them). Follow-up shots are tougher with heavier caliber rounds from the same platform...physics. However, the platform (gun you use) often helps tame that recoil based on size, weight, grip, etc.

There. Done.

 

[Walking Dead]

In my opinion every free man should own the following.

1) a .357 magnum

2) a 9mm

3) a 1911 (.45)

4) a Glock

5) a .22 pistol


It's kinda like your portfolio you gotta diversify. When the zombie apocalypse happens you better be able to utilize what's available.

 

[DeepSouth]

It's just not that much difference.

Also notice the slower but heavier 9mm and 40S&W out penetrated their counterparts.

 

[ttheel]

Just for curiosity I would like to have seen what a .45 185 gr JHP would have looked like in that photo.....or even a good 200 gr round.

 

[9mm+]

All of these calibers have a good body-count track record. Shoot what you like and don't over-analyze this.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

In my opinion every free man should own the following.

1) a .357 magnum

2) a 9mm

3) a 1911 (.45)

4) a Glock

5) a .22 pistol

I'll pass on the Glock thank you.

 

[Rock185]

There is NO perfect caliber, IMHO. As to the .45's lack of penetration, a little story. Many years ago, our rangemaster was testing a, new at the time, bullet resistant ballistic clip board for officer's use. Quite a few handgun calibers had been tested and none penetrated. I happened along as he hung up a new ballistic clip board to test, using ,45ACP. I believe he was shooting regular old ball. Well, as you might expect, the .45 did not put a hole in the ballistic clip board, But, what it did do, was break the clip board completely in half. Proves nothing I guess, but thought it was an interesting/amusing twist on the .45's generally perceived "lack of penetration."

 

[Seven For Sure]

200 +P in 45 1025
180 in 40 1025
200 in 10mm 1200

These are about average for 4" barrels. They will penetrate least to most with bullets of the same profile and construction. Now go pick a gun and learn to hit the bullseye after a fast draw.

 

[LAK]

Z71

Planning on shooting somebody in a car?..On the otherside of a wall maybe?..you will go to prison...

Not if they are shooting at you - or "merely" presenting a firearm, or threatening you with a firearm for that matter. The criteria for the justification of the use of deadly force do not change simply because your shooter is sitting in a car or crouching behind a wooden fence.

I have encountered thugs in automobiles quite frequently. Anyone that thinks that he or she can just duck, walk or run away if enfiladed by someone in a car, or from behind some other intermediate barrier does stand a very good chance of getting killed.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

I never heard of anyone being shot with any cal. And saying ( uhhh--it was not bad--do it again)---ANY CAL. IS BETTER THEN NONE AND LOOK AT DEEPSOUTH PICTURE #84, WHO'S WORRY ABOUT A SLOWER BULLET

 

[macadore]

From the article,

As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)

This is BS. The difference between a .454 hole and a .354 hole is not that great. Any of the calibers the OP mentioned will work fine. I carried a 45 for many years before switching to a 357 SIG. I switched because I could get more rounds in a smaller pistol. I don't know that the 357 SIG had any noticeable advantage over the 9mm, I just wanted one.

 

[gamestalker]

From a hand loader's point of view because I have the luxery to load them how I desire the performnce to be.
Pick the one that feels good in your hands, fits your economic's, and learn to put the round where it counts. If you want something that will go through doors, windshields and so then pick a cartridge that has a good velocity and shoots a decnet sized projectile. My favorite carry gun is a .357 mag. revolver because it will take care of the task at hand.
But a 9mm will also deliver a high velocity hollow point and can hold a lot more rounds.
A 10mm is simply a lot of gun and will shake your world when you touch it off and it's economically expensive to shoot if you don't reload.
The .40 S&W is probably my favorite AL cartridge because it has plenty of velocity behind a fairly good sized projectile, high capacity magazone, and will get 1200 fps with a 165 gr. hollow point, more than enough.
Then the trusty 45 ACP. I'm not a fan at all of this cartridge but it is probably the most popular of all the above. I agree it doesn't typically do very well in the velocity dept. but it does fire a heavy projectile.
In the end it is all about how well you can shoot the firearm more than anything else. Imagine how ineffective a projectile traveling at 1500 to 1600 fps being fired by someone who can't hit the broad side of a barn. The first thing that comes to my mind is collateral damage.

 

[George1951]

Even low-end .177 pellet rifles are pushing the pellets 1000-1200 fps.... I returned a .177 break-action pellet rifle to Walmart because I was sure the supersonic 'crack' of the pellet was gonna upset the neighbors...got a .22 pellet rifle, @ 800 fps, safely subsonic...

 

[KimberUltra]

I don't over analyze it all. I stick with 9mm as a minimum for self defense. Any caliber is going to hurt if not kill a bad guy. You'll drive yourself nuts trying to find the scientifically best caliber. It doesn't matter. If I had any gun pointed at me I'd stop what I was doing.

I do prefer .45. I think it has the best intimidation factor. A .45 is a big barrel to be looking down.

 

[JohnBT]

Slow?

900 fps = 613 mph

A Boeing 707 is listed at 607 mph.

 

[expat_alaska]

.45 ACP with 230 gr. Federal Hydrashoks.

 

[True Grit]

You ballistic guys kill me... Buy a gun that you like and learn the gun. It is only as good as you are.

 

[withdrawn34]

Shoot. Hit. Make sure it is a righteous situation before pulling that trigger.

I carry 230 gr .45 ACP Winchester Ranger Bonded. I've also carried the same in Speer Gold Dots. That does not mean you have to. If I carried 9mm it'd probably be 147 gr HST, standard pressure.

95 gr .380 ACP CCI Aluminum TMJ (hardball) in my pocket pistol. "Range" carry ammo? You better believe it .

 

[mljdeckard]

It is entirely feasible that you could be confronted in your car while it is stopped. You might well need to shoot through the door. It is far from impossible and as justified as any other defensive encounter.