Long Debate with Gun Phobic Person about Needs of Conceal Carry in City

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4Freedom

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I just had a 2 hour long phone conversation with my father who is not a gun owner, but respects my righst as one. He is afraid for me to carry a gun, because he thinks if I carry one and end up having to use it that many bad situations can arise. I, myself, feel I should carry a gun and take these risks, because it helps lighten the load of law enforcement dealing with weak and unarmed citizens, as well as helps promote freedom and justice throughout the country. Also, being an armed citizen lets criminals know we will fight back and not be frightened sheep who will bow to their ever merciless tyranny.

Some of the points my father brought up, that I believe many other people who are phobic of conceal carry would bring up, are the following:

1. If I shoot some bad guy/goblin, the court or the friends of the person may be able to convince the jury that I murdered him and being at the mercy of the jury I willa be imprisoned for murder.

2. Most bad guys are more embolden and if they say I pull a gun they will pull for their gun and someone will have to die when all they wanted to do was give me a hard time, take my money, etc..

3. Always give a robber your money, never resist. Most of the time, all they want is your money and pulling a gun will always result in a death.

4. If you pull a gun on a group of thugs who are threatening, they will be more embolden and pull a gun on you. Since it is multiple people, even if they have not pulled a gun, they will have the advantage; especially, since you don't know they are armed.

5. You may pull the gun by mistake because you were afraid when the person was not going to kill you. Most confrontations never lead to loss of life.

6. If you are out in woods and bunch of bad guys are threatening you, better to be at the mercy of the criminal since you are outnumbered. Usually, they would not want to kill you.

7. The bad guy who you shot has relatives, brothers, cousins, etc who will want to avenge his blood and can come after you.

These are some of the statements my father threw out to challenge me on conceal carry. Please, I hope people can read it and realize he doesn't come from a background of guns. He is a Vietnam Vet who worked on hospital ship and he has only seen the bad side of bullet wounds. Also, he lives in pretty safe area so he doesn't concern himself so much with day to day threats. NObody in his family was big with guns, so his mind is not like yours or I. He of course supports my right to bear arms, but rather me just be at mercy of criminals saying that chances are in my favor I will live, but chances are I risk injury, death or prison if I carry a gun for defense.

Rather than knocking my father, I would like to hear some well thought views on some of the statements he has made. I am sure many proponets of gun control or those who oppose conceal carry would have made these same statements. What counter arguments would you make against these statements. I have read on THR many stories of people who were saved by pulling guns on criminals. Contrary to what many say, when you pull gun on a threatening person, they don't become more vigiliant, but I have never been in this situaiton, nor do I wish to know.

If worse case scenario and if everything he said is right, statistically, I would carry a gun, because I feel I have a duty as an American citizen to be armed, trained and stand up for myself. This helps reduce the heavy load on law enforcments and also will put more fear into petty criminals who like to make their living on weak, defensless people.

Thanks for peoples input. I will be carrying my gun, even though my father tried to convince me otherwise. Of course, I will seek out training and to learn how to cope in crisis situations as best as I can. The last thing I ever want to do is ever use my gun, of course. I pray to God I never have to do that.
 
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I dont know about the different scenarios that you laid out and will have to think on them later this morning.

Now. I do know this.

We were specifically raised to believe that guns are a historical tool of engaging the children in events designed to hold and teach them about our history.

We were also exposed to guns in way of sport shooting clay pidgeons.

One side of the family survived Korea and for him and everyone in his house very simple... NO. GUNS. Period.

The rest of the family generally made thier choices with guns or not. Generally very few guns are in our family because many people are raising children and rely on others like Re-enactors to do the gun teaching.

We made the decision around the election period last year to become gun owners and go to the range to learn, improve and take classes to understand the laws of our state regarding home defense and conceal carry.

In the past I have posted big that I would be a conceal carry because crime is bad and requires a armed response. Not so fast.

There are specific places in Little Rock I must go from time to time near Federal Installations and Hospitals. I will have to disarm before walking onto thier property. But to GET to these places at night requires protection ready at a moment's notice.

It is unfortunate that crimials freely roam the city at night doing what they may at will and sunrise brings the usual crop of news about dead, hurt and how police have yet another case to solve.

I hope I never meet a criminal, but if I see one coming hopefully what they taught me will work out and I wont have to draw on this person. That is my favorite ending. Winning a fight without having to fight.

Does that make sense?

otherwise if we were unarmed, we are fresh for the plucking, looting and pillaging and may STILL get shot for it.

No. Enough. Somebody is going to get hurt or killed. My wife and I have already lived our lives to the full and have used several of our 9 lives. We choose to go out if necessary with brass casings falling around us. Not on our knees in the street waiting on 911.

In Little Rock sit blocks and blocks of vacant houses, falling down to ravages of nature. In those houses harbor bad people who only think to satisfiy thier vices and greed or hunger etc.

We refuse to allow ourselves to be victims of that evil. I think once or twice already in the last 12 years or so some of these folks stopped in thier tracks, saw in my eyes fight or something and left us alone for easier prey who may not have the situational awareness or have the "Moxie" to put up a resistance and become a easy mark.

There are people around us who are also armed for thier own reasons and most if not all have had combat in Vietnam onwards to today's wars. They have no problems what so ever dealing with a home invader or a criminal.

Just today a Pizzera Owner fresh from Iraq fought off a few two-bit thieves using her combat experience near Jonesboro. I think the thieves are lucky to escape with thier lives. They may be caught at some point to face justice. But better justice served cold than dead.

My wife and I had a converstation the other day about how much ammuntion is enough for all of our weapons? I said to her never enough, however we only can store what we can carry without physically hurting our bodies in a manner where this ammuntion is ready at a moment's notice at any time.

And then we go enjoy a few hours range shooting every month. There we improve, learn and maybe enjoy the experience. It is a stress reliever to know your weapons work, your aim is good and no one gets hurt.

And finally some honey do jobs hang on whoever has the best and tightest grouping at center mass. Last time I lost and had to do some extra work so that the wife may enjoy some gardening time. No worries there.

Bottom line, in our lives we dont go to Little Rock or any major city without being armed. Period. It's just the way it has to be.

That is one of the reasons I started a thread about where people would like to live in peace with freedoms as written in the US Consitution as it stands as it did these last 200 years without some liberal interperation bullcrap or any other issues screwing it all up for everyone.

Keep in mind one important thing.

YOU may choose not to carry guns. Or even own a gun. But be very careful becuase most criminals have divorced themselves from the Law's Hold (As it were) upon them and will carry a weapon to use against you to get what they demand so that they may satisfy thier next drug hit fix, spirits addiciton or use your funds for other things that YOU will NEVER approve or accept.

Imagine me meekly handing over my wallet with 100 dollars in it. Then get shot for it. Big deal. That 100 is gone. Then there is the hospital billing. Then there is the police. Then there is the criminal system and a never ending quest to hunt for the guy that did it that will consume years or months of your future.

Forget it.

keep it simple stupid. Carry a gun, learn to use it and if that day ever comes, it will be over fast and your future determined one way or the other should your aim be correct and true and tested against the existing law in your area.

I like it short and simple. So we can get a move on with things that need doing once it's all cleaned up.

Oh by the way, the burials and necessary papers on spouse and I are paid for, completed long time ago. One simple phone call to the funeral home opens the folder on us and it will ALL be taken care of should I or spouse or both of us not surivive a criminal attempt to commit a crime against us in little rock or some other place one day.

And good riddiance. Our treasures are not here, we are but prilgrims passing through doing what we can to help others from time to time and earn our daily bread. No criminal will be permitted to interuppt that.
 
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A gun is not an insurance policy or a guarantee. Bad things can happen to you. Only you can decide whether the risks outweigh the benefits.

It is true that most robbers only want your money. But you might draw the one that doesn't want to leave witnesses, or that enjoys killing.

It is true that if you shoot someone you might face criminal or civil charges. Of course, that means you're alive to face them.

In a free society everyone is free to weigh these things for themselves.
 
If worse case scenario and if everything he said is right, statistically, I would carry a gun, because I feel I have a duty as an American citizen to be armed, trained and stand up for myself. This helps reduce the heavy load on law enforcments and also will put more fear into petty criminals who like to make their living on weak, defensless people.

Ditto.

As to how to win him over? If you figure it out let me know I'll use the method on my wife. They both have what I think of as the ostrich mentality - head stuck in the sand and not believing it can happen to them. I have yet to find a way to get my wife's head out of the sand. I hope you can figure something out that works that I can emulate.
 
I can't find a link to it, but a few years ago I read that an Ohio representative was walking somewhere in Cleveland (?) and was assaulted. He was strongly anti-gun, but apparently this incident changed his mind and he became pro-gun rights.

It is unfortunate that, for a few, they can't learn the value of self-defense from others but have to experience it first hand.

I will continue to search for this, and post it if I find it. I believe it is an example of how an attack (that is survived) can change one's perception of reality.

Edit:

Ohio Representative Michael DeBose (D- Cleveland), who was formerly an opponent of concealed carry until he experienced firsthand an armed mugging attempt that convinced him to obtain a Concealed Handgun License.

This isn't the full story, obviously, but it is a real-life example of an anti- who changed his mind after experiencing what it was all about.
 
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...when all they wanted to do was give me a hard time, take my money, etc..

Really? How would you know if that's all they wanted? What about bad guys who rape women? Kind of negates that argument.

...Most of the time, all they want is your money and pulling a gun will always result in a death.

Maybe. What about the balance of the time?

4. If you pull a gun on a group of thugs who are threatening, they will be more embolden and pull a gun on you. Since it is multiple people, even if they have not pulled a gun, they will have the advantage; especially, since you don't know they are armed.

Kind of argue towards carrying to me.

5. You may pull the gun by mistake because you were afraid when the person was not going to kill you.

But, how do you know they weren't planning to kill you?

6. If you are out in woods and bunch of bad guys are threatening you, better to be at the mercy of the criminal since you are outnumbered. Usually, they would not want to kill you.

I think it makes common sense to NOT be at the mercy of the bad guys.

7. The bad guy who you shot has relatives, brothers, cousins, etc who will want to avenge his blood and can come after you.

Well, I sure as hell hope so!


-Matt
 
1. If I shoot some bad guy/goblin, the court or the friends of the person may be able to convince the jury that I murdered him and being at the mercy of the jury I willa be imprisoned for murder.

I realize I am responsible for every bullet that comes out of my gun and would not pull the trigger unless My life was in danger. vs. being dead or permanently maimed, having to answer for my actions in court comes second.

2. Most bad guys are more embolden and if they say I pull a gun they will pull for their gun and someone will have to die when all they wanted to do was give me a hard time, take my money, etc..

So it's better to do nothing and hope the bad guy doesn't shoot me anyway, rather than defend myself. When a criminal attacks, he usually has already decided whether he is going to kill you or not. If the answer is no, you more likely will cause him to flee than escalate the situation. If the answer is yes, you can let him shoot you or fight back.

3. Always give a robber your money, never resist. Most of the time, all they want is your money and pulling a gun will always result in a death.

That is a fallacy. I have prevented 2 poeple from robbing me by drawing a firearm. The result was they turned tail and ran. I never fired a shot. Another man I know gave the robber his money and was stabbed several times anyway.

4. If you pull a gun on a group of thugs who are threatening, they will be more embolden and pull a gun on you. Since it is multiple people, even if they have not pulled a gun, they will have the advantage; especially, since you don't know they are armed.

Once again, better to let them attack and hope they don't kill you anyway? In one of the aforementioned situations, I and my friends were outnumbered 3 to 1 by an advancing group. Me drawing my .380 caused them to back off long enough for us to get to our cars and leave, again without firing a shot. Usually as soon as a criminal realizes his plans just got jacked up, he will abort, not escalate.

5. You may pull the gun by mistake because you were afraid when the person was not going to kill you. Most confrontations never lead to loss of life.

You don't introduce a gun to every confrontation. Being in possession of a gun means I have to be man enough to back out of a fight rather than escalate it into a deadly conflict. I don't shoot because I am angry or scared. I shoot to stop confrontations that are going to imminently become deadly

6. If you are out in woods and bunch of bad guys are threatening you, better to be at the mercy of the criminal since you are outnumbered. Usually, they would not want to kill you.

If a bad guy has followed/led you into the woods, he wants to kill you. That's why you find bodies in the woods. In that situation, you can be Burt Reynolds or Ned Beatty Shoot or Squeal, it's up to you. Bad guys want a win, not a war. You're gun may not force them to retreat, but it may buy you time to get out and give a couple of them the worst day in the woods ever.

7. The bad guy who you shot has relatives, brothers, cousins, etc who will want to avenge his blood and can come after you.

Gee, dad. too bad my family are all pacifists otherwise, I'd have some backup, too. This happened to my friend who had to shoot a guy. They made his life hell for 2 years, but had he not shot the gangbanger, he would have been dead. Easy choice.
 
You have THE right to defend your life by taking a life.

But if you think you won't open up a whole new world of problems -

better think again.

Educate yourself. The laws are on the books, its up to us to _learn before we need_ .

Learn about the Administration of Justice.

:banghead:
 
You have to make a choice no doubt life is all about choices. To me there are two schools of thought. Armed and prepaired or unarmed and full of hope..hope you don't find oneself in one of the above situations. I've found hoping generally leads to wishing...
 
Wishing and wanting sure has nothing on already having and ready.

Are we getting that dumbed down as a society as to think that we can go anywhere as we please as Alice does in Wonderland without a care in the world?

Where I went in my previous work, there were many predators who would gut you for the money you had in your pockets in a minute if they could get away with it. And watch out for the hookers who might just stick ya within arms reach if you look well fed, strong and have money or resources.

My spouse was with me one night and got a taste of my side of trucking in one of the markets with a few bad guys. Right then and there she made up her mind that civilian life isnt all that great and when we paid off some debts we would become gun owners.

It would take years, but we made it happen.

A Pacifist is not all bad. They are useful. But at some point they must choose in a moment if thier position is worth thier life or injury. Even a cornered mouse fights.

I find some people particularly able to get close to you, make you feel all warm and fuzzy and they are coldy calculating where and how to strike. Those are the most dangerous types.

I run into many folks who are nice and not capable of doing bad and violent things. Usually they are shipped to Boot Camp before having that education. Sometimes they are shipped back home because they fail to adapt.


I tell you this. Ive seen the bad times in the 70's and again in the 80's and feel that there is once again economic bad times a-coming. It is one thing to be armed against looters after a natural storm or disaster like Ice storms etc, it is different when people are hungry and desperate enough to try and commit crimes to get what they need.

It would be up to you to either let them take it over your injured or dead body without punishment or justice or perhaps making them go away at gunpoint without shooting (I like this...) or if they just wont stop... well.. you would have to decide for yourself at that point.

Someone is doing something bad to you against the law, you know what is right, wrong and also legal or not legal right?

Do the best you can. Just dont do what the OK City Drugstore man did.
 
In every case, the non-self-defense answer to any of these scenarios boils down to "If you can't trust in the common sense and basic decency of violent felons, what CAN you trust in?"

My answer? My M1911 and a couple of magazines of Hornady 200gr. .45acp TAP.

I am NEVER, EVER going to put myself in the position where my life and limb are dependent upon the whim of an armed criminal. If you don't understand why, ask those six women who were shot execution style in that Lane Bryant clothing store in Tinley Park, Illinois. Of course if you plan to ask more than one of them, you'd better learn how to conduct a seance first...
 
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