Martial arts that pair well with gun use?

[sidheshooter]

The POIs that will make the most direct connection are probably straight up combatives, a la Kelly McCann, Craig Douglas, Michael Janich and the like (all serious shooters, in addition to famous thumpers). That said, I think almost any art can be adapted that direction, depending upon the practitioner and training environment.

The things I am studying now (i.e. Janich's MBC system) have not much overtly in common with my decades of Okinawan Goju-ryu, but every time I seminar in a more combative, or "FMA-combative hybrid" style, I see benefits with regard to my understanding of basic bio mechanics, timing, reaction time, etc. There are only so many ways to hit somebody safely, block an attack, lock a joint, fall, intercept a line... at the end of the day, a lot of this stuff begins to look similar, albeit in a very different set of clothes.

JMO.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Deaf, I get what you're saying. I can definitely admit that the experience I had with TKD was only at one gym, when we live in a country with thousands. I still have a lot of respect for the Master I trained with. But still, in my subjective experience, I got more real-world fighting skills much faster out of Krav than I did with TKD and that was over a period of weeks as opposed to years.

Actually I agree. KM will give you a bare bones SD ability far faster than ANY TKD school I know.

JKD, like KM, used to have no belts. All is street relevant. The big difference is JKD lets you go where your ability lies. If you are a great kicker, you spend more time there. Have a gift for grappling, you spend more time there. JKD though allows you to get more, let's say, complicated than KM.

But there are few JKD studios and lots of KM ones now and if you want the skills now, well no use sitting on ones tail every night, right? Find a KM school and go.

Deaf

 

[mortablunt]

Sambo and Tae Kwon Do are what I know (the latter much better than the former.) SAMBO is much better suited for gun use, having been developed for Spetsnaz. What you do is treat the gun as an extension of your first and aim the gun along an imaginarz line with your middle knuckle and zour elbow point. Krav Maga is good, but I think that time in training has more benefits than just learning a bunch of poetry and how to count to 10 in a foreign language. More time in training is more time to rehearse movement and time to gain discipline.

 

[RatDrall]

... every time I seminar in a more combative, or "FMA-combative hybrid" style, I see benefits with regard to my understanding of basic bio mechanics, timing, reaction time, etc.

The most useful system I ever studied was old school Kali, for just this reason. They were way more worried with teaching body mechanics and anatomy than they were with us learning the alphabet in obscure languages.

The problem with most of the TKD/Karate/whatever schools is that they focus very little on footwork and mindset needed for fighting, because long ago they lost touch with the concept that they were training to physically destroy another human being. The Kalistos, and some others, still understand this.

I would go with what worked for Janich, and other very dangerous people, and invest my time in a Fillipino martial art...

 

[DaisyCutter]

I like Judo. I'm a tall lanky cop, and I like throwing people over my leg. I'm totally unskilled in martial arts, but I have good balance and long legs. I don't know judo, but watching Karo Perysian is very impressive.

My mission is to get someone on the ground. Judo looks good. I know f all about it. Judo impersonator here.

 

[Marc Spector]

while i havent really read all the responses... I will refer to a concept that Bruce Lee applied to his training... IT IS NOT THE STYLE THAT MAKES YOU WIN, IT IS HOW THE STYLE IS APPLIED. Just about any martial art can be effective if used correctly... one only has to train and become familiar with the system to be proficient with it...and train A LOT! There is no perfect martial art style...or rather any of them could be perfect if applied correctly. Of course that is a very big IF, so train as much as possible. Another thing, I would advise going with a "tried and true" system... something that has lasted the test of time. I think martial arts are the basis for the armed citizen, being proficient in any martial style will make you and the people around you, potentially, safer.

 

[Nuclear]

Find an instructor who is an active shooter. I went to a school with some people I respected in the martial arts community who weren't shooters and they were teaching gun disarming techniques that would have almost insured a discharge in your general direction.

After that, find a school that is focused on what is practical, not just traditional. I try to avoid long term contracts, schools that instruct in a foreign language, mysticism, or cult like situations.

Last place I worked out at had a end of class bow out that looked and sounded like something from Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. Just couldn't take the place seriously.

 

[Hanshi]

I'm not disparaging taekwondo when I say it is not the best art for sd. I reached 6th dan years ago and taught tkd for years as well. The problem is that it takes much longer to become effective in this art than some others. Of course there are those with athletic ability which puts them far ahead of the majority of students; I know a few such people.

With the right teacher just one session in aikido will enable a student to be at least somewhat effective with a technique or two. Ukemi, the process of knowing how to fall, roll and not get hurt is mostly important in the dojo. This is because one cannot train with intensity in the dojo without not having to worry about getting thrown or injured by joint locks. This goes for judo and jujitsu as well.

In the Korean arts it's hard to find better a more effective art than Hapkido or Yusool. On the Japanese side aikido and jujitsu probably top the list. I, myself, am familiar with these and a few others. Kobudo, weapons training, is a fine addition to training. This should not be limited to traditional weapons such as bo, nunchaku, sai among others. The most effective weapons training is with "environmental weapons", pens, glasses, combs, credit cards, chairs, just about anything one can get their hands on.

Understand, there is NO self-defense! What, one may demand. I'm now too old to fight so will not tolerate letting an attacker make the first move. Once his intentions are clear, it is time for you to go postal. The same thing goes for the young. Fight and you may get hurt; take the initiative and HE will get hurt. Be mindful and stay away from risky locations and behaviors. The best self defense is not to be there when violence occurs.

 

[mortablunt]

With the right teacher just one session in aikido will enable a student to be at least somewhat effective with a technique or two. Ukemi, the process of knowing how to fall, roll and not get hurt is mostly important in the dojo. This is because one cannot train with intensity in the dojo without not having to worry about getting thrown or injured by joint locks. This goes for judo and jujitsu as well.

This is useful in daily life. It's one of those things that helps a ton when thing sget slippery, especially when the Baltimore winters come.
__________

A fundamental part of the fight is that somebody will get hurt. The second part is the lie that it will be a "fight".

 

[Girodin]

The biggest problem I have seen with krav maga schools (and other street/self defense combative stuff) is that they teach street applications of techniques but often utterly fail to teach the basic technique soundly in the first place. A simple but, from what I have seen all to common example, is a basic punch. You are not going to punch very hard unless you have sound punching technique. I'm yet to meet anyone that has trained exclusively krav maga (or the like) that can throw half decent punches.

Also like anything else the quality of instruction is key. I know and have trained with or around (one what actually train with us) two different krav instructors and their students regularly. One is pretty good the other is laughably bad, and chuck full of BS and bravado to boot.

In my experience, if you want to be able to fight you need three basic skill sets: stand up striking, wrestling, and ground skills. There are sport applications and street applications of each. There are also techniques that are only suited for one environment or the another. That said the basic underlying skills are the same. Once you can the base skills you can focus on street application. You can also expand them out into other areas, training retention of firearms, etc. You will have a good sense of what is practical and what is BS that is highly unlikely to work.

The things worth learning are IMHO the basics of Muay thai/boxing for stand up and footwork (one of the most underestimated parts of fighting). Some wrestling and judo. Some basic ground fighting (sweeps and getting up in particular for the street). If you're interest is in self defense you can focus on that application after you have the basic skills. However, the basics are the basics and transition over very well. I personally use a very different approach and strategy for sport fighting and ring fighting than I would for self defense.

If you want to be able to fight train in something where you are actually fighting. If you aren't getting hit and hitting you are never going to learn how to fight. Also, honestly some people just are not fighters. They could train with anyone from now until the end of time and they would get beat down the first time they ran into real trouble. It is better you learn that, or other limitations you have in training and not when it really counts.

Additionally, fighting is a physical activity. Strength and conditioning actually go a very very long ways in a fight.

I'm not disparaging taekwondo when I say it is not the best art for sd.

I'll be blunt TKD (and a lot of other stuff) is horrible for self defense. Any sport that disallows punching in the face and trains with their hands on their hips is not good for real fighting. Most traditional martial arts are equally horrible for self defense/real fighting. These arts teach skills developed around a very artificial set of rules and skills that have very little practical application beyond them and that for the most part translate very poorly to a real fight/self defense. I used to try to be nicer about it but truth is truth and trying to pussy foot around the truth is actually doing people a disservice.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Girodin,

Disallowing punching is ONLY in tournament TKD. And yes TKD takes alot of time, a real lot of time!

But most martial 'arts' that are tournament orientated have rules in their arts. Even MMA does not allow eye gouging, scrotum grabbing, biting, finger jabs to the eyes, ear power slapping, or other fun stuff. Judo has no punching or kicking. Even Muay Thai has rules! And boxing does not allow kicking or backfisting or elbows.

And none of them allow sucker punching before the gong sounds, or buddies, or hidden weapons, hitting a downed opponent, or...

But all of good techniques you can use! And I like that!

If you want a bare bones fast SD course I'd go Krav Maga. If you wanted SD and willing to take time then a good Hapkido or JKD school (if you can find one!) And if you want to make martial arts your hobby, heck TKD, JKD, Hapkido, Judo, Shotokan, Boxing, etc... and enjoy!

Deaf

 

[Girodin]

If you want a bare bones fast SD course I'd go Krav Maga.

I train with/have trained with all the Krav instructors in my area. I'm less than wowed by it honestly.

If you wanted SD and willing to take time then a good Hapkido or JKD school

I will respectfully disagree, particularly with respect to the Hapkido. The one JKD school that I am familiar with is a guy who is a legit BJJ black belt and has an extensive muay thai background. His "JKD" actually has some useful stuff.

Judo has no punching or kicking.

Which is why I said I think people need three basic skills, striking wrestling grappling. Judo goes towards the latter two. Boxing and muay thai are the best for the first.

Again there is gearing it towards SD/street application is necessary. However you needed a solid base of fighting skills and you only learn that in the "fighting" arts.

 

[Canfield]

The Japanese jujitsu I've seen is every bit as concerned with incorporating weapons and empty hands as Krav Maga is. It wasn't developed with rifles and pistols in mind, but the techniques still apply.

That said, it's also hard to find.

 

[gallo]

Boxing is an excellent way to sharpen your reflexes, gauge distance, and stay out of the reach of your opponent.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I never took martial arts formally. However, one of my brothers did, and he went on to teach. Not to mention the years he spent in the USMC. He's been studying martial arts for a number of decades now.

He used to teach me some basic stuff and we'd spar, back when I was a teen. Falls were the first thing I learned. And everything he taught me came with an explaination...why you punch this way and not that, why a particular block was performed the way it was, why it was important for my feet to be positioned certain ways for certain stances...the list goes on.

And he'd give me practical examples about the importance of all this, too...in other words, he gave me lots of practice learning how to fall.

But two of the most important factors about martial arts that he taught me were situational awareness and how to read body language. This is because part of the "self-defense" aspect of martial arts is knowing how to avoid situations where you are required to use your training.

Coincidentally, these are very important factors for anyone who carries a gun for self-defense as well.

Whatever martial art you choose should have a heavy emphasis on these aspects (situation awareness, body language, and explanations)...at least as much as they do with the actual physical training, in my opinion.

 

[Kayaker 1960]

Martial arts training

"26 years teaching / training in traditional Shotokan karate here. Would have to say from a practical self defense perspective, any martial art is going to be good; but be prepared to spend at least 3-5 years to get competent in any of them. Takes a long time to build up muscle memory to be able to react and move naturally.

Try a few out and see what you like and feel comfortable with. The nice thing about it is there are (usually) a lot of different styles being taught in any given area."

Good sound advice here!

I studied and taught Kyokushin Karate when I was younger. It isn't flashy like some of the other arts, emphasis is on hitting and kicking with power. By the way it shares a lot in common with Shotokan karate.

Go sit in on a bunch of different schools/dojo's. Narrow it down to the ones that looked the most interesting and then go sit in on those again. You will be spending a lot of time and some money there so don't be in a hurry to pick the school that is best for you.
Time spent training in martial arts is time well spent. Building technique and muscle memory as well as learning to think tactfully will give you a big advantage over an untrained individual. It does take years of training but you will get to the point where you will react with proper technique without having to think about it.
Recently I was looking to get back into martial arts, after some studying I decided that Japanese Jiu Jitsu looked very interesting. Unfortunately I can't find any Dojo that teaches it in my area. It seems that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is everywhere these days.

 

[Trent]

It's also a VERY rapidly deteriorating skill. To stay "proficient" you have to be very active (at least 2 hour long workouts a week).

I was off karate for 24 months to heal from a motorcycle crash injury, and it is ASTOUNDING how much of my conditioning and technique was lost. My body would NOT move the way I needed it to, my endurance was crap, my flexibility was gone, my reactions and timing were HORRIBLE.

If you plan on getting in to martial arts, the only way for it to become - and stay - effective, is if you make it a lifelong pursuit. It sucks, because it's a heck of a lot of work, but that's the facts.

Taking a few classes and calling it "good enough" is merely building artificial confidence and setting you up to get hurt, because the skills WILL NOT be there when you need them.

 

[Hanshi]

I feel compelled to comment on martial arts once more. First off, it's WILL, not just SKILL that's truly important just as it isn't always the biggest dog that wins the fight. And yes, some types of training are better than others from the standpoint of self-defense.

Any kick/punch focused art is very limited. This includes tkd, karate, boxing, kung fu, etc. Sport arts such as sport judo, wrestling, BJJ are limited as well. To be well rounded some training must be done from several of these. The more inclusive the art the better. Forget "fighting a style". You use everything at your disposal whether it is part of your "style" or not. Too many throw these acronyms around as if they are things you can possess that will save you. This thought process can lead to bad endings.

I do not like to talk about my own background that much as it may seem boastful. The fact, however, is that I do hold legitimate, high ranks in at least a dozen martial arts. This is not due to any innate ability I might possess but is simply the result of more than a half century of immersion in a wide variety of arts under a wide variety of teachers. Punches to the face usually end with a broken hand. Kicks higher than the knee present a great risk. Purposefully going to ground can get you killed. Any prolonged confrontation is hazardous to your health. These can be considered "principles".

Unless it involves a knowledge of kicks and strikes as well as joint attacks, judo must be considered a sport art. Aikido is terrific as is many styles of jujitsu and hapkido. But learning strategy, effective aggression, a good handful of trained and assimilated tactics and techniques along with the will to prevail will get you through where jkd, tkd, tsd, etc will not. Environmental weapons first and foremost, unarmed secondary. And most importantly, be prepared.

 

[ddub13]

I think it would be foolish to discount MMA as a base for martial arts training. Having previously studied Kempo, TKD, Akido, Shotokan, Kobudo, etc. over the course of 15 or so years, nothing prepared me for actually fighting in an MMA situation. Yes it is not real life, but if you think about it, what are the chances that some tough that is giving you trouble has some sort of MMA type of training? Much higher than any other MA I would think. And knowing how the fight is going to unfold and being able to control that is definitely more than half the battle.

I look at it as kind of a modern JKD. If you want timing and striking from a distance, boxing and Muay Thai. Defending a take down, wrestling. Takedowns, wrestling and the grappling sports. Ground fighting, jujitsu. And what is most valuable is the ability to transition between all of the above seamlessly as needed. Train everything so you know what it looks like when you are faced with it. Then supplement with whatever environment based type of techniques that are normally illegal in it and some multiple attacker training (which we did in MMA as well). When you train keep a thought as to what might work on the street vs. not.

And if you spend some time on it, I think that much of it stays with you. I guarantee that spending a few years really working at it will ensure that the base muscle memory stays for a long time. Not enough to win a competition, but maybe enough to get you out of that situation you got into. Not having done MMA for a few years, I guarantee I am still more ready for a real fight than I ever was before I did it.

As a side note, only my Kempo training had any specific gun training. I doubt I would want to apply it in a real situation though.

 

[FMF Doc]

For what it sounds like you are looking for...Post#8 : Krav Maga. It isn't a sport, it isn't really even a martial art, as it is neither structured (martial) nor formed(art). IT is bare bones keep you alive stuff...and it works. A bunch of the paramedics I work with have taken several classes. Most of us are CCW guys (and gals) but while at work, we are prohibited from carrying any form of weapon, including guns, taser, mace...etc. I guy was fired a few years ago for pulling out his pocket knife when he was attacked. So, left defenseless, we sought out the best option we could find to help us come out on top of a bad situation. Krav Maga was out answer, you should give it a try.