Pistoleer vs Martial arts expert..any stories?

[Mr. Magnum]

Ive asked this a gazillion times already in my head before but never had the chance to let it escape until now.. ive known too many martial arts trainer, experts, students, etc. who are not so into guns or even anti-firearms.

With all due respect to martial-artists (of any sort), Just wondering what will happen if a martial artist together with a shooter comes into a serious incident.. or even comes in a confrontation with each other... I am also aware that even firearm fighting is a form of martial arts..and that all people who either fall on the hand-to-hand or firearm combat (should) be on the defensive purpose and not become offenders to the civillian.

do you have any real life stories to tell? or are these just what we see in the movies?

(e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyBu4OFPmug)

 

[M1 Shooter]

I don't know of any, but that is one of my favorite movie scenes of all time!

 

[PistolPackin'Papa]

Even seen that Harrison Ford movie? Depending on your distance from the BG. Step back, draw and blow him out of his socks.

Of course, if you are close, then weapon retention techniques and positioning are very important. I never intend to get that close. Always keep my eyes open and on the alert.

GOD has granted me 59 years, so it must work.

PPP

 

[Alphazulu6]

I always think back to Indiana Jones, when that martial arts dude comes out all bad and buff, and Indy just pulls his pistol out without alarm and shoots him dead with one shot.... and then I laugh my a** off!

With martial arts I think that its amazing what someone can do with their body and its an awesome art and dedication lifestyle. Its just such an unfair advantage to have an H&K .45 or Glock .40 vs someone with a "Kill Bill" sword or whatever

My money is on the Delta boy and his MP5 vs. a Teenage Mutant Mall Ninja.

 

[pdowg881]

The only way I can see a trained martial artist having a chance defeating a trained shooter is if they are in arms reach of each other, possibly giving the martial artist an oppurtunity to disarm the shooter. Of course, if the shooter is trained it won't be easy to do and you'd likely get shot. The fact that a pistol has more range than an arm gives the shooter a massive advantage at any kind of distance.

 

[General Geoff]

Highly dependent on the situation. Also depends upon awareness of both parties, and who reacts first. A trained martial artist who decides to be the aggressor could most likely take down a gun fighter from 10 feet away before the gun fighter has a chance to draw and shoot.

Likewise, a gun fighter who decides first to take down a martial artist will most likely be able to draw and shoot before the martial artist knows what hit him, regardless of range.

Of course, this hinges on both persons being excellent at what they're trained to do. For those less than adequately trained (which is most people, both in martial arts and in gun fighting), the situation would get murkier and may favour one or the other for other reasons.

 

[timmyb21]

As a gracie Jiu Jitsu student, I would like to add something. Helio Graice said once that jiu jitsu gives you the skills to defeat an opponent in unarmed combat, the skills to disarm an opponent if needed, and the confidence to do either. It doesn't make you bullet-proof. If the pistol fails, the Jiu Jitsu kick in. Take them down, disarm them, then choke them unconsious.

 

[tmajors]

The only way I can see a trained martial artist having a chance defeating a trained shooter is if they are in arms reach of each other, possibly giving the martial artist an oppurtunity to disarm the shooter.

In the Jujitsu classes I took the black belts would do firearms defense, as in an attacker with a firearm. They actually used a real firearm, though unloaded, checked three times at least...once when pulled out of the weapons case, once when handed to the 'attacker' and once before the lesson. Ammo didn't exist anywhere in the dojo either. Can't remember the model but automatic of some kind. Yes this made me VERY nervous as a gun person.

Anyway the attacker would point the gun at the defender and the defender would avoid and disarm. If the click happened when the gun was pointed at the defender he was 'dead'. They would go in so close sometimes that the attacker started with the barrel ON the defenders head.

The closer the attacker was the higher success rate the defender had. On the head was nearly 100% success, anywhere in arms reach was probably around 75% success for the defender. Outside arms reach it depended on if the defender could close the gap before the attacker could fire, still at least 50%.

 

[glockman19]

Pistoleer would win.

 

[Heywood Case]

Back when I was training it was part of the curriculum. The particular move I was taught seemed highly improbable and in fairness to the school was never claimed to be otherwise. It depended generally on the opponent trying to regain control of the gun with both hands once you had one hand on it, and generously holding still while you attacked his eyes with the other hand, followed by other unpleasant acts of violence. It's possible that the sequence might have been effective if simplified, as the initial move to get in close and trap the gun could sometimes be done against a partner who was trying not to let you do it, and I could see how several critical vulnerabilities could emerge while the opponent attempts to regain control of the gun. It would help to be a lot stronger and faster than the opponent. And yes you would have to be extremely close to have the slightest chance of pulling it off. You could probably learn something a lot more effective by asking around in any prison.

 

[RobTzu]

You could probably learn something a lot more effective by asking around in any prison.

Is that a pistol, or you just happy to see me?

 

[ryan in maine]

this is the only story I have. a 49 second clip from the anime Samurai Champloo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4gkiji8zLA

Mukuro (with revolver) vs. Jin (ronin)

real stories of an unarmed person disarming someone armed with a firearm are few and far between. for what it's worth tho, it does happen.

 

[Alphazulu6]

real stories of an unarmed person disarming someone armed with a firearm are few and far between. for what it's worth tho, it does happen

Grab for someone's little Kel-Tec and you might be missing a few digits... lol

 

[FlaXD]

Pistoleer would win.

Naw, Remo Williams (or Master Chiun) would just dodge each bullet, maneuver up to you, twist your gun arm around, pop out the mag, flick off each remaining round from the mag. and then beat you with your own pistol.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RW5d3wIDirI (about 1/2 of the way in.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vh4Kx9IqIZw

 

[Phantom Warrior]

As a moderately experienced shooter and martial artist (tae kwon do, not grappling) I think tmajors pretty much put his finger on it. The closer the engagement, the better the odds are for the martial artist because the shooter has less time to react.

This is just conjecture, but I expect that experience also plays a part. A really seasoned martial artist would probably have a better chance to disarm a novice shooter than two equally experienced individuals. And vice versa.


FlaXD,

Outstanding reference!

 

[Medusa]

Hand vs gun, military style.
Different starting positions, different weapons vs hand. Etc. It's pretty good. They're our "shore defence company" - something close to die-hard marines.

 

[M1 Shooter]

Interesting video Medusa, but I personally would not hold a pistol like that on an apparently unarmed yet potentially hostile person. Holding a pistol one handed arm outstreched is just asking for it to be taken away from you. I wonder how they would deal with someone holding a pistol in a close contact retention position.

 

[Medusa]

I wonder how they would deal with someone holding a pistol in a close contact retention position.

This is potential wound vs certain death situation, so it needs to be adressed fast - cutting into the enemy OODA loop and taking the initiative.

Techinques dealing that kind situations are there, but everything can't be shown in public.

 

[mike101]

"Ever seen that Harrison Ford movie?"

Raiders of the Lost Ark. One of the best movies of all time.

Lesson; Never bring a sword to a gun fight.

 

[zastros]

A funny bit of trivia(to me at least) about that scene. It was supposed to be a great fight between Indy (with his whip) and the swordsman. But when they started to choreograph the fight, Harrison Ford was sick with the flu, or beri-beri, or some such. (If you look at the scene, he looks like hell) He just didn't feel up to it, so as a joke he pulled and shot the swordsman. The director and crew just fell out and decided to keep the scene.

zastros

 

[hso]

Movies don't contribute anything to the discussion. We can't complain about their unrealistic depiction of guns on the one hand and then cite them for depicting something else on the other.

The distance separating the two individuals is key in predicting the outcome. Distance is the shooters friend while proximity is the H2H fighter's. If you're close enough to disarm, you're too close to run. If you're far enough away to run, you're too far to try to disarm.

If the BG has a gun on you and you're within contact range it's nearly impossible to draw your gun AND avoid getting shot before you can bring your weapon to bear. On the other hand, if you have trained in disarming/disabling techniques you have a much better chance of preventing yourself from getting shot if you don't obsess about the firearm and focus on self defense.

There's a video clip from training of one of our members effecting a disarm with the shooter knowing it's coming and trying to shoot when they detect the attempt in this thread. http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155&page=2&highlight=disarms

 

[ID_shooting]

I took a few classes from a little old man in Korea who could do an amazing amount of push-ups on his thumbs not to mention some other stuff that I would have veiwed as near impossible especially for a man his age.

Somone in class asked him this very question. He explained that Tae Kwon Do was tought to most every Korean student for many years yet every conscript in the ROK Army was trained to use a firearm. He said he would never willfully take on an assailant with a gun.

 

[GRIZ22]

The closer the engagement, the better the odds are for the martial artist because the shooter has less time to react.


I agree. I know of a an incident where a LEO (who is a well trained martial artist) was arresting a BG. The BG went for a 357 in his belt and the LEO (who had closed to about 10 feet or so) rushed him and punched the BG breaking his nose which immediately put him down. After the incident the LEO said he knew he could close with BG and hot him before he (the LEO) could get his gun out.

Not really martial arts but anther time a LEO was questining a BG when the BG said "I've got a 38 under my seat (in his car) and I'll shoot all of you". The LEO stopped the guy by slamming the car door on him and then drawing down on the BG.

Car Door Fu?

 

[sacp81170a]

Being an experienced martial artist, I can tell you why I carry a gun rather than depending on empty hand skills: it's far more difficult to stop an attack with your hands and feet than with a gun. Given that you're a master ninja, you have no idea whether the guy with the gun that you're facing is also a master ninja. I've had some of my best lessons from guys that looked pretty harmless...

We all know about the Tueller drill, but the Tueller distance only counts if you're standing still. If you move and draw while the other guy is moving, he can be anywhere outside arm's reach and you can still beat him.

The three distances we work with in Kendo are chikama (close distance typically tsuba to tsuba), issoku ito no maai (one step, one cut distance, the "danger zone") and toma (farther away). There's been one time in my Kendo career when I actually had someone "disappear" from in front of me. I was in the team competition in the 1997 Rocky Mountain Kendo Championship when one of the guys from Seattle, Sensei Steve Obata, taught me what *fast* is.

In team competition, rank doesn't matter, you just fight whoever is on the other team. It started out with me making a spirited attack (no sense in holding back). When they brought us back to center, Obata Sensei had my measure. I swear to this day that he disappeared completely and only showed up again after he had hit my men (forehead) and was completely behind me. It wouldn't have mattered if I'd had a pistol or a sword, I was dead. It also wouldn't have mattered whether he had a weapon or not, since he is also an accomplished Judo and Shotokan practitioner.

On balance, unless I run across Obata Sensei or someone like him, I've never met another martial artist that I would fear if I were armed and they were not.

The movies notwithstanding, a skilled swordsman would have no difficulty in dispatching a karate or kung fu practitioner. I've demonstrated that very fact to a number of people who thought what they were taught in a 'sword vs. empty hand' class had any resemblance to reality. They had no experience with a "real" swordsman. Same goes whether the swordsman is a European fencer or a Kendoka. I'd be interested in seeing a few demonstrations where an IPSC Grand Master went up against an empty hand practitioner.

 

[Gunblade]

I agree with the statements thus far. The closer the gunner, the more likely he/she can be defeated.

I remember seeing a few scenes in anime (Trigun) and movies (Jet Li) where a defender would grab and hold the cylinder of a revolver and stop it from working. In a real world confrontation, could such an event happen?