Martial Art That Emphasizes PUSHING AWAY?

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Lots of stuff out there.

But for what you describe you might want to check out Taijiquan empahsizes a lot of wrestling and qin na. To push you need torque and taijiquan has plenty of it.

The problem is finding a teacher that teaches it as a martial art instead of the health aspects.
 
Wow. Doc actually came right out and said it.
JMHO based on being a TKD instructor for 26ish years. Edit to add, virtually no martial arts program in contemporary America strikes me as having sufficient rigor and focus on geniuine combat as to capture my interests and my respect. Most are hobby at best, with half-wit, wanna-be-professional instructors to who falsely inflate their rank to something north of their real Black Belt rank.
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The best system is what works for you, and only to the extent you pursue it with genuine passion.
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Cosmoline has a good BS detector, like many of us here on THR. I've been reading his posts for a while here and he's no N00B.
Anyone who comes up with a comprehensive system for weapon retention, shooting, hand to hand with ccw in mind, Gun v knife, and simple/stable/dynamic footwork could probably make their fortune teaching these days.
In fact, I'd say we're overdue for the Martial Arts world to give birth to Gun-Do.
 
I think your fundamental premise is somewhat confused.

Merely pushing someone away does nothing to protect you. Getting pushed away neither disables nor controls an assailant. It'll probably just annoy them.

Something like Aikido, PRACTICAL Tai Chi (not just the forms) or Jiu Jitsu seems compatible with what I read between the lines in your post. You seem interested in a non-percussive sort of defense.

There is a Chinese art called Chin Na, which would probably work well for you, but it isn't that widely known. It's mostly throws, joint locks and the like.

If you're interested in using a cane, Hapkido has a lot of cane techniques, as well as Chin Na/Jiu Jitsu style joint locks and throws.

Remember, if somebody attacks you, they're probably not trying to avoid harming YOU. There's certainly no good reason for you to avoid at least causing them pain in return.
 
Dean, a clarification, qin na ("seize and control") is not exactly a stand alone style but a subcomponent of grappling which is one of the four methods of boxing (hitting, kicking, throwing, grappling). All divisions of Chinese boxing feature qin na to some degree. Some systems, e.g., Eagle Claw, Tiger, White Crane, Praying Mantis, inter alia, have a heavy concentration on qin na.
 
My two cents (worth what it cost you) is not to look for a particualr style, but to look for a particular instructor. F'rinstance... there's a guy down here in SoFla named Joe Hess. I haven't seen Joe in over twenty years, but back in the day (think "early seventies") Joe fought in over a hundred full-contact matches, and won all but one or two IIRC. He went on to become an instructor to many of different law enforcement agencies, as well as having his own dojo, and becoming an expert witness in use of force trials. His main style of Karate was his own version of Urban Goju, but in his law enforcement classes, he taught a wide variety of "real-life" tactics, based on what works in "real life" situations.

My advice would be to go around to all the schools that are convenient to your location, and speeak to the senseis. Explain your interests, and listen to their advice. Many schools woll let you take one or two introductory classes for free, just to get the feel of the sensei's teaching style. Even if they won't let you train with them once, they'll surely let you watch a class in progress. Many senseis have classes that are not "Karate" as such, but just focus on self-defense techniques.

Once you find the right teacher, and he understands what you want to learn, it'll all fall into place.
 
Dean, a clarification, qin na ("seize and control") is not exactly a stand alone style but a subcomponent of grappling which is one of the four methods of boxing (hitting, kicking, throwing, grappling). All divisions of Chinese boxing feature qin na to some degree. Some systems, e.g., Eagle Claw, Tiger, White Crane, Praying Mantis, inter alia, have a heavy concentration on qin na.
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I don't know if you're familiar with Japanese Shorinji Kempo, but it too incorporates chin na type techniques. But then Master So Doshin was a Japanese spy in China where he traveled widely, posing (and actually being) a student of the Chinese martial arts. I've found the Shorinji Kempo techniques to be quite effective in practice.
 
conjecture

This is an interesting subject; thanks "Cos."

The "football" answer has merit; evasion of a rush or breaking loose of a grab.
The "Kendo" reply makes sense also, especially for a striking attack. Especially the visual recognition and reflex development.

Then; perhaps two arts that may be difficult to find instruction in, unless you live nearby a major city.

-Aikido; with it's footwork evasion, more that the complimentary joint locking that is part of it.

-And how about "Savate?" How about that Canuks? It appears to have the similar elements of Karate foot technique, but with emphasis on dynamic mobility that would "buy" you a moment that you need.
 
The "football" answer has merit; evasion of a rush or breaking loose of a grab.
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Running back kata? Well it's an interesting idea.

to look for a particular instructor.
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This may be the most practical idea. There are a lot of Koreans in town so TKD might be an option, though I don't know which of the local masters are more "real world" oriented. Most of the classes are geared towards the children of soccer moms. My plan at this point is take up where I left off many years ago and concentrate on core flexibility and movement with hatha yoga and tai chi.
 
Sure, I know of Shorinji Kempo but only by talking to students. There's one or two guys that come to the Boston qinna seminars and there's a club that comes to Chicago when Dr. Yang comes there.

Very happy that you found something you like.
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I know of Shorinji Kempo from Master So's very well illustrated book which I purchased in the 1970s, as well as a couple of Sonny Chiba movies! :)

I'm unaware of any Shorinji Kempo schools in the US, much less in the Cleveland area. When I moved here there were almost nothing but Tae Kwon Do schools, of which I'm not a devotee. Now that there's some diversity in the martial arts community here, I probably ought to look into joining a school. Hey, it's only been since 1986... :)
 
In fact, I'd say we're overdue for the Martial Arts world to give birth to Gun-Do.
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You're 400-500 years behind the times. Ever heard of Ho-Jutsu or Teppo-Jutsu? They're the Japanese martial arts of shooting. They go back to when matchlocks were top of the line.

In the 16th and 17th centuries, the Japanese had the best firearms, and probably the best marksmen in the world.
 
Cosmoline

A lot of folks seem to be missing the point of your question, which if I am correct in summarizing is that you want to be able to keep someone out of your “personal space”, aka so that they cannot touch you.

My vote would be Tai Chi (hear me out on this one). Tai Chi the fighting form, not that fitness club crap, focuses on using an opponent’s force against them. When I was studying Karate and Kempo, one of the instructors was a Tai Chi master, and try as we may, every attempt to lay a finger on him resulted in being spun around like a top and felling that “which way did he go George” feeling.

Other than that, any of the disciplines that focus on striking and moving should suit you well. Just make sure that the school that you choose is geared towards real fighting and not competitive “points” fighting. The Karate that I learned was very, very different from that taught in most other “karate” schools.
 
It's not so much being able to defend myself I'm worried about, it's being able to control my strikes and direct the strikes to knock someone down without really smashing them up. I'm as much worried about not hurting them too much as defending myself.
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Why worry about this at all? I don't, like you said later in the post, lots of experience with idiots, etc. Well, these types are easily avoided and easy to handle, no particular training necessary. The problem with finding something to train into your neuromuscular system to get better at handling these idiot non-threats is all that training will be woefully inadequate against someone bent on your destruction.

When up against a mortal threat if you are trying not to hurt them, but control them...and they are trying to just kill you...who has the easier task to accomplish?

I know that you are already aware of this...so my point is why train for the lesser idiot and potentially screw up your learned response in a true violent situation? Just train to cause serious injury. If you find yourself dealing with a moron, avoid them...or barring that, it's easy to ramp down to a shove/knock down.

Be advised though that putting hands on someone is serious business even if you think they aren't a real threat. #1, you can shove them and their head can hit the concrete and kill them (happens more than people think) or your TKD kick to the solar plexus can expose a genetic heart defect or arrythmia (oops...another involuntary manslaughter conversation with a grand jury) or he can come back later and shoot or stab you. Or idiot's sociopathic freind can stomp you to death.

I do everything I can to avoid any and all confrontations unless Uncle Sam is paying my to pick a fight at the time. If the threat isn't serious enough to rupture testicles and bust knees...I probably shouldn't be touching them at all then. If, god forbid, some drunk moron tries to tackle me...well I have a tough use of force decision to make in a split second. Hopfully a takedown and/or ankle stomp will end it without any unintended consequences.

I've heard of highly trained (in lethal combatives) guys taking a punch to the head or 2 from an idiot to try to avoid a fight. I've heard of them complying with armed criminals because they felt the criminal would be satisfied with the $$. It's a judgement call every time when to use violence...no easy answer. No "use system "X" for threat types A-D and system "Y" for the real threats. You won't necessarily know who you are dealing with ahead of time and your subconscious won't be able to switch modalities under stress. Good news is the most violent situations will probably be sudden and vicious...so you'll recognize those!
 
In my experience, weapons training forces you to focus your attention outside your own body and work with distances that are far different than simply working with your own body does. I would submit that kendo and fencing are far more realistic representations of combat than you can imagine if you haven't tried them.

Then again, I'm just giving someone advice on something that they might try based on actual experience and training, not expressing my prejudices.
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Riiiight. And of course you assume I'm not, just because I happen to disagree.

I've had a couple years of fencing, a couple months of kumdo (Korean kendo), a small amount of ARMA longsword, and a black belt in Tae Kwon Do.

I can safely say that sport fencing has absolutely, positively nothing to do with actual combat. It's like comparing bullseye shooting with a gunfight. Okay, so you learn footwork and distance in a sport. Well, you also learn trigger control and sight alignment with bullseye shooting, does that mean that 50 foot bullseye is a great gunfighting method? No.

Actual combat is about as different from sport fighting as it gets. You can learn a few useful skills from them, but you usually end up creating more bad habits than good ones.

Another recommendation I forgot would be the Filipino martial arts, specifically from the Atienza and Sayoc families. Those two train hard, and train right. Ignore the knife throwing stuff (which is practical the way they do it, just very difficult and practice-intensive) and substitute in a gun instead, and you have a very solid fighting system.
 
I think the original post . . . . .

was from a guy who wanted to learn a few practical techniques for creating space between him and one or more possible adversaries. I don't get the idea that he wanted to embark on a lifelong quest for the perfect martial art as much as he wanted something he could learn today in case he needed it by tomorrow. In that case my vote would go to Savate first and Krav Maga second. Based on my experience both of those disciplines can impart a few very effective basic moves to almost anyone in a single session. They both have the advantage of being primarily geared toward elevating your tactical awareness in a modern context and dealing with both armed and unarmed response to a potentially dangerous situation. This is not a flame war here and I do not mean to denigrate the effectiveness of anyone's chosen martial art but I think some of the posts may have missed the essence of the original.
 
I will speak frank and direct. Not to offend, but to perhaps save life or limb.

One cannot endeavor to learn one technique. It presupposes that said person will always encounter the adversary in the same predetermined position and setting. The idea behind the forms, one steps, and floor drills, sparring, etc, etc, is to develop muscle memory (conditioned response). Anything shy of conditioned response will net you the following:

I had one fellow student, a Blue Belt, who decided to protect the honor of a young lady in a bar. He succeeded in little more than getting his ear bitten literally off by a Marine who had no training other than his service training. Most Blue Belt students have studied for approximately 1 year. They are not considered proficient. He learned just enough to get cocky, and get his posterior beaten and literally eaten.

My point is, what has been requested herein cannot be done...period. To entertain this conception is pure folly and dangerous. It is tantamount to assuming that one can purchase a firearm, 1 single bullet, get the CCW license and never set out to engage in serious and sustained practice. If the poster does not desire to become a professional martial artist, become a professional shootist.

Pursue one or the other, or both, but engage in said same to a professional degree and stop fooling yourself. That fact alone may someday save your life. I apologize if I come across as rude or arrogant. I have been a serious student of the arts of just over 4 decades, and an instructor (certified in multiple styles) of martial arts for over 2.5 decades, and I managed the National Headquarters for our Association for two years. Not to brag, but I danged well know what I am talking about here, and here is what I am talking about: contemporary martial arts (non-firearm) are either 1) a way of life or 2) a sport, but they are NOT 3) combat preparedness. I submit for the consideration of my fellow expert martial artists, how much less so is the pursuit of a mere one or two techniques sufficient preparedness?

JMHO: What this poster needs, based on my own experience is a Tactical Shooting course followed by an Advanced Tactical Shooting course, because learning a couple of techniques is not going to cut it.

Doc2005
 
I've had a couple years of fencing, a couple months of kumdo (Korean kendo), a small amount of ARMA longsword, and a black belt in Tae Kwon Do.
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I've had 14 years of Kendo, a couple years of fencing, and Dan ranks in Judo, TKD, Tang Soo Do, Wadoryu, Kendo, Iaido and Kali Silat. In total, I've been training for a little over 31 years. No disrespect intended, but a couple months of kendo training lets you barely scratch the surface. I don't know about Korean kumdo training, but Japanese Kendo includes shinai kendo, kendo kata (two man forms), iaido, and jodo (short staff). Then you have the koryu, the old styles, which for me happens to be Muso Shinden Ryu.

Riiiight. And of course you assume I'm not, just because I happen to disagree.
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I apologize for any misunderstanding. I made that assumption based on your superficial description and dismissal of both Kendo and fencing. The European fencers that I worked with were Olympic level fencers and I have great respect for their ability.

The idea of kendo is to tap the other guy with a stick, without injuring him.
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LOL! You've described the most superficial aspect of shinai kendo. Ya left out the other thousand years of tradition and training. You've never been to gasshaku, have you? In gasshaku(special training, usually held about twice a year) it's okay to pass out and get dragged off the training floor. It's completely unacceptable to ask for a break. I've had lots of bruises, some concussions and broken ribs from being "tapped with a stick". It felt like it was pretty close to combat at the time. ;)

The idea of modern fencing is to touch the other guy with the tip of a metal stick, without injuring him.
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I will agree with you, modern fencing is far more restrictive without the traditions of the old fencing schools behind it, but I mention it not as an expert on European fencing but out of respect for what it can teach.

Well, you also learn trigger control and sight alignment with bullseye shooting, does that mean that 50 foot bullseye is a great gunfighting method? No.
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Don't you agree that trigger control and sight alignment are essential to hitting your target? They're elements of gunfighting, and pretty darned important ones at that. Show me someone who never practices them and I'll show you someone who misses a lot. Not a good thing in a gunfight.

Getting back to the original post, I think a lot of others have mentioned some very good arts, but Doc2005 hit the nail right on the head.

contemporary martial arts (non-firearm) are either 1) a way of life or 2) a sport, but they are NOT 3) combat preparedness. I submit for the consideration of my fellow expert martial artists, how much less so is the pursuit of a mere one or two techniques sufficient preparedness?
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Getting into the "practice this don't practice that" trap is little better than the "my style's better than your style" debate. I suggested a few arts and may have been hasty in assuming the level of training the original poster had in mind. There's no quick fix, no training that doesn't involve mental and physical effort that's worth pursuing simply to get one or two techniques.
 
Interesting thread

[stupid question]
I've watched Steven Segal movies and have been amazed at whatever type of martial art he happens to use. Can anyone identify his style? It appears to rely on reactions, counters, leverage and not so much strength.
[/stupid question]
 
Seagal is an Aikidoist. He is also making movies and wears stupid necklaces , IMO. The Aikido communiy does not like him.

I think he's also a former CIA contract ninja and a Navy SEAL , and an Indian Shaman and some oher secret deadly stuff.

^sarcasm^

I've also enjoyed his choreography at times , too. As well as Jacky Chan's , but they're movies not reality.

Hour for hour value ? I'd say Muay Thai & Judo/BJJ/wrestling. No disrespect to the traditionalists ( I am a recovering one myself ) but the reason you have never seen a traditional art used in a street fight is because they don't really work. It ALWAYS turns into a feral melee , with someone getting bitten eventually.
 
"It's all fun and games, until somebody loses an ear..."

-- M. Tyson

This really is an interesting thread. Some parts of it read like an old Kung-Fu movie... "My Dragon style is far better than your weak Eagle style...!"

I still think the most important thing for Cosmo to do is identify what's available to him, in his location. Then to speak with the instructors, and find one that will teach him what he wants to learn. Any training, combined with a little maturity (which Cosmo has, or he'd not be asking this question) will be better than no training. It may lead to a lifetime's devotion to exploring the various martial arts, or it may not. It may save a life, or it may never be needed. But... "It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it..."
 
This really is an interesting thread. Some parts of it read like an old Kung-Fu movie... "My Dragon style is far better than your weak Eagle style...!"
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This goes down in THR history with the other great debates:

9mm vs. .40 cal. vs. .45 cal.
Which shotgun for HD?
AR vs. AK
Rifle vs. shotgun for HD?
Glock vs. 1911?
Which martial art?

Any I forgot to add? ;)
 
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