Martial Art That Emphasizes PUSHING AWAY?

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Cosmoline

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The recent thread on the importance of learning martial arts got me thinking about how I would apply such things in my real life. The bottom line is, I'm almost always carrying a firearm or several firearms. My primary need for martial arts training is NOT to grapple and best my opponent, but to stop a non-deadly attack by some drunken fool or loutish moron. I absolutely do NOT want to bring them in with some grapple and have them anywhere near my firearms. Or my torso, for that matter. I don't even want them close enough to punch. If they're close enough for me to punch them, they're close enough to spill my innards out or grab for my firearm.

I'd much prefer to use my legs and a walking stick to keep them at bay and if need be hurt them. I want to learn how to launch physical attacks that focus on pushing away rather than bringing in or flipping over. My goal isn't to pin them or make them beg for mercy, but to knock them back and give myself enough time and space to get out of Dodge before I have to kill someone. I've been doing a lot of bike riding, so maybe there's a martial art that emphasizes kicking and pushing with the legs while keeping the hands free to deploy more serious weaponry if needed. I have no doubt I could deal some serious blows with my legs if I knew how. But at the same time I'm way too big to be diving down on the ground like that Brazilian whatzit.

So, THR dojos, is there any such martial art?
 
I'd much prefer to use my legs and a walking stick to keep them at bay and if need be hurt them. I want to learn how to launch physical attacks that focus on pushing away rather than bringing in or flipping over.
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Kendo. This called tsuba zeriai and is used when you are at chikama, close distance. It works thusly: when you and your training partner are involved in jigeiko or free practice, you will often wind up at close quarters, tsuba to tsuba. Since the object is to hit your opponent with the mono uchi, the cutting part of the sword(in this case, the shinai), you must either push off of him and use hiki waza(cutting while stepping back technique) or you must push him backward into range of your attack. The various techniques to do this aren't formalized and given names that I'm aware of, but you become very adept at pushing another or using his resistance to your push to add momentum and speed to your movement backward.

Since you mention using a walking stick, you'd be able to translate kendo technique very nicely into your everyday accoutrements. We practice hiki waza all the time and it wouldn't take much to change the movement to drawing a handgun while pushing off for distance.

Your opponent steps in, you receive his motion with your hands on the shinai, fending him off from sweeping your feet while at the same time stopping his forward motion by using his momentum to bounce you backward. Using this energy with correct posture and footwork, you execute hiki men(head strike), hiki do(chest strike) or hiki kote(wrist strike). We've also tried this kind of technique empty handed and even when someone is attempting to grab you, if you're familiar with the footwork, you bounce off like a rubber ball faster than they can grasp you, especially if they aren't expecting you to do this.

The problem with just throwing Kendo out there as what you should practice is that depending on where you are it might be difficult to find a dojo.

http://www.kendo-usa.org/statedojolist.htm

Look here to find one near you. My old instructor, Scott Tullis, is still at the Cheyenne Budokan and our head dojo, the Rocky Mountain Budokan is in Denver. Iwakabe Sensei is the chief instructor there. I'm in Northwest Arkansas and there are no active dojo near me, but there used to be one at the University of Arkansas. If you're near a university you might find a Kendo club.

The other drawback is that it's a bit more expensive than other arts to get started in. A decent set of dogu (armor) will set you back $300-400, with another couple hundred for a decent keikogi and hakama.

Failing that, my next choice would be European fencing. The footwork there is also intensive and you'll be practicing creating range to use your weapon after you get too close.

Next in line would be the Filipino arts with traditional Kali rather than Arnis or Escrima as the first choice. Kali practitioners focus more on the stick representing an actual blade rather than a stick as the weapon of choice and so they concentrate a little bit more on "clearing" the weapon.

Those are my suggestions, YMMV.
 
I'd definitely recommend against kendo or modern fencing. Both are just sports, with absolutely nothing to do with actual combat. The idea of kendo is to tap the other guy with a stick, without injuring him. The idea of modern fencing is to touch the other guy with the tip of a metal stick, without injuring him.

Grappling if it becomes necessary, smashing the other guy's fingers so he can't hold his stick, kicking him in the groin, etc., are all out. In western fencing, you don't even need to touch the other guy firmly enough to have actually caused an injury with an actual blade. "Flicking" is a perfectly legitimate tactic in many circles.

I'd recommend training with the ARMA, if there's anywhere near you. http://www.thearma.org Longsword techniques would probably work quite well with a cane, especially if it has a relatively heavy head, for morte-striking.
 
Chang Hun TaeKwonDo's focus is (depending on the organization) 90% use of legs, and 10% use of hands. The hands are free for blocking (or in your case going for your firearm). TaeKwonDo never allows one to get in close (body-to-body).

It is a "hard art", meaning that one meets force with greater force. One hand technique that certainly would meet your criteria would be a palm-heal strike. When properly executed, it is forceful. But, it takes practice and practice and practice. It must come off without thought, as in it must be a conditioned responce.

I have seen too many students get into the martial arts and learn just enough to get themselves into troubles well beyond their developed ability.

JMHO based on being a TKD instructor for 26ish years. Edit to add, virtually no martial arts program in contemporary America strikes me as having sufficient rigor and focus on geniuine combat as to capture my interests and my respect. Most are hobby at best, with half-wit, wanna-be-professional instructors to who falsely inflate their rank to something north of their real Black Belt rank.

Certainly the two fools on Human Weapon do not earn my respect. They lack charactor, and exercise precious little if any respect for fellow martial artists. Neither strikes me as being capable of fighting their way out of a wet paper bag.

Doc2005
 
Seriously you don't need to know a martial art to push someone away. Just lift weights and practice pushing people around...
 
Koz has a good point. I would add, if you can touch them, likewise they can touch you. Better to enroll in an Advanced Tactical Shooting Course and learn how to scoot while you shoot.
 
Muay Thai can teach you devastating leg strikes. Aikido tends to focus on redirection of your enemy's power, thus a punch becomes a throw, his forward momentum sends him spinning away from you while you escape, etc. I agree with the ARMA recommendation as opposed to modern fencing. If you know what you are doing, modern fencing can be excellent conditioning, but it is very two dimensional, and lacks force training.
Brazilian Jiujitsu isn't just for little guys. I was one of the bigger guys where I trained, but by no means the biggest. I went to academy with another guy who trained gracie style. He was 6'4, 290. I do understand you don't want to draw someone in near your gun, and despite the hype, it has never been my experience that "90% of fights go to the ground". That is during five years of bouncing in bars...
That said, I would certainly recommend learning some ground fighting. Just like carrying a gun, you don't want to be in a postion where you have to use it, but if it does happen to go bad, and you have a guy on top of you, it'd sure be nice to know some basic Jiujitsu, just to squirm away and be able to shoot him, if nothing else...
 
Seriously you don't need to know a martial art to push someone away. Just lift weights and practice pushing people around...
Click to expand...

I've seen guys try this at some places I worked. Usually resulted in broken arms/wrists/elbows...
You need flexibility along with weight training, and you also need technique and speed. There's always going to be a stronger man out there...
Better to learn it, and never need it.....
 
Gunfighting is a martial art also. If you are carrying a gun when attacked, your primary concern will be protecting that weapon from access by your assailant, and secondarily getting your weapon into effective operation without losing it to your assailant.

I'd suggest Southnarc's ECQC- it is most useful 'when your awareness fails' and an assailant closes with you before an overt attack is launched. Most people visualize gunfights at 21 feet and prepare accordingly. IMHO it's best to assume difficulties at contact distance and work out- since distance is your friend, assume that Murphy will be at work and you won't have the advantage of room to draw as so often practiced.

lpl/nc
====

http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp

ShivWorks
Extreme Close Quarter Concepts (ECQC)

The ShivWorks Extreme Close Quarter Concepts (ECQC) course is a one
or two-day block of instruction, which focuses on a multi-disciplinary approach to building functional, combative handgun skills at zero to five feet. The course is designed to instill core concepts of seamless integration and provide the platform for aggressive problem solving during a life or death struggle. A heavy emphasis is placed upon commonality of body mechanics between skill sub-sets, which means that all combative software is reinforcing. Once the student’s skill sets are initially ingrained, the participant will be stress inoculated with force on force drills utilizing Simunitions and protective equipment.

Topics covered include:
Day One
· Diagnostics
· Introduction to the components of the Combative Drawstroke
· Building the #2 position in live-fire
· Firing throughout the horizontal line of presentation
· Off-hand fending positions
· Default position
· Basic empty hand blows
· Theory of in-fight weapon access
· Grounded basics
Day Two
· Challenging the potential attacker
· Preemptive weapon access
· Muzzle aversion within draw-stroke
· Negotiating the F.U.T.
· ECQ Handgun retention in holster
· ECQ handgun retention out of holster
· Handgun recovery
· Handgun striking

Equipment required
Holster, pistol, two magazines, eye & ear protection, heavy sweatshirt or soft body armor, mouthpiece and cup, 200 rounds of ammo.

This class is not recommended for beginning shooters and prior documented training or instructor approval is required. Students should be relatively fit as this is a contact class. Most of the latter half of each day will be spent utilizing Simunition marking cartridges and FIST helmets, to allow the students to gain confidence in applying their newly acquired skills against moving aggressive opponents.
 
I've seen guys try this at some places I worked. Usually resulted in broken arms/wrists/elbows...
You need flexibility along with weight training, and you also need technique and speed. There's always going to be a stronger man out there...
Better to learn it, and never need it.....
Click to expand...

Doing what? Lifting weights or pushing people?
 
Cosmoline,

If you don't want someone to grab your firearm then grabbing range is probably THE thing you need to be proficient working in, training to push them away only means you'll less prepared to deal with someone up close, both physically and psychologically. It's very tough to beat someone up if they're far away, there's no substitute for competent movement up close. This doesn't means it's a good idea to wrestle/grapple or try to get the guy into a submission, all that stuff does it make it easier for his buddy to knife you in the back.

Trying to keep them away won't help either, if you're in kicking range they're in punching range, and when you kick you're making yourself a lot less stable, mobile, yet more vulnerable.

Finally, it's a very bad idea to become fixated on your gun, it's just a tool, and if you focus yourself around it the gun becomes a crutch. When you draw your gun your go backwards, the threat is in front of you and you move your hand away? That means if they decide to go forward it's very possible that they can clock you before you get the gun drawn. This is what I mean about it being a crutch, if unarmed you probably wouldn't put yourself in that position, the firearm should be the servant and not the master.

I don't know what part of the country you live in so it's tough to recommend a school or teacher, a good teacher in Kali/Pekiti Tersia wouldn't be a bad place to start, blade/stick work is intrinsic to those arts so disarms and avoid being disarmed are key
 
The surest way to survive a violent conflict is by injuring the threat until they can't function. Without a firearm, injury requires being close and applying body weight into every strike, targeted at weak parts of their anatomy. Therefore, I always want to be close.

Lashing out with kicks will probably end up with you getting taken down by a determined attacker. Unless the kicks are kept low...which will necessitate closer range...so that they have power and penetration...so that they cause injury.

If you are afraid of getting injured and just trying to keep them away...that will only work on less than determined attackers. The type you shouldn't really worry about anyway. The violent felon with a few shankings under his belt won't be stopped with lashing out type kicks at range.

A full body weight strike above the solar plexus (sternum and above) will knock an opponent back anywhere from 3ft to accross the room. You get this by colliding into him (in a vulnerable area) with your body and displacing him occupying his space.

In context: for example let's say you turn a corner and a thug is rapidly closing with a glazed look and body language that says he's gonna attack and he's 3 ft away. The first thing you happen to notice is his solar plexus. So you step in and punch his solar plexus, rake his eyes with the other hand as he doubles over, then to create distance, step in and slam your forearm (ulnar side) into his throat, slamming your body into his and driving all the way through. All gross motor movements and he will fly back and be taken off his feet, even if you only weigh 100lbs.

As he flies back...feel free to draw handgun or other tool of choice. That's much better than trying to step back and/or shove (what if he out-masses you by 50lbs?) or lashing out with a kick trying to keep distance. He can move forward faster than you can move back and force against force (like the shove) necessitates you being bigger/stronger. Force (from bodyweight) against his vulnerable anatomy= injuries in him.

Heck, even a really hard shove requires you to step in and transfer weight...it just won't injure anyone unless they fall or collide with something, provided you out massed them enough to reverse their momentum in the 1st place. Now, stepping in and shoving...your forearm in their throat or side of the neck (google "pimp vs karate master" for video of what even a weak side of neck shot can do) will get him injured even if he's 300lbs of meaness.
 
Well, be careful to not push to forceful on someone who is a Black Belt in Kodokan Judo...the classic set-up is to wait to see where you want to go! ;) Push me right, push me left, pull me in, push me away...it doesn't matter. I'll take you with me at using your own body's weight and strength to get the "job" done. But that is in a match...not a gun fight.

Stick to gun techniques as use of a firearm, and training with it does constitute a Martial Art..."Martial" simply means combat or fighting.
 
Tae Kwon Do. I've trained in both Tae Kwon Do and a little Judo. Tae Kwon Do is more along the lines of what you want. A kick or a punch on an advancing attacker is particularly devistating as they're basicly walking into it. Tae Kwon Do doesn't do much to teach beginners weapons, or sticks, but it does something far more valuable for the beginner--it teaches blocking. Most folks aren't very good at blocking and if you're worried about an unarmed attack you need to know how to block...
 
Correct Re: TKD and weapons. I refuse to teach any one of less rank than 1st degree Black belt anything of weapons. I actually prefer no weapons. Your body is weapon enough. Besides, imagine how odd you would look with a staff protruding from your bathing suite at the beach. Most unappealing. :neener:

I only encourage martial arts integration with firearms (taking away) for students at the ranks of 2nd degree Black belt and above. Of course practice is with plastic guns. How unrealistic. Though I do know many instructors who practice with real, albeit empty firearms.

If you plan to study martial arts in the weaponless sense, be prepared to commit 3 years at minimum to develop your abilities to the point of conditioned responce. Anything less and you will be kidding yourself. I still say you will net greater benefit from an Advanced Tactical Shooting program. Nearly all contemporary weaponless, martial programs are sport oriented.
 
I should explain a little more. It's not so much being able to defend myself I'm worried about, it's being able to control my strikes and direct the strikes to knock someone down without really smashing them up. I'm as much worried about not hurting them too much as defending myself. As it stands now, I could certainly ram them with my stick's ice spike or kick them in the groin, but with my size that could result in very serious injury.

In real life, or at least my real life, the physical confrontations I've had have all been with idiots I could probably take on if I needed to, as well as some fools I could really hurt. All I can do now is try to avoid them until they present a deadly threat. But that may not always work, esp. if my lines of retreat are messed up. If someone presents a clearly non-deadly threat and I can't get out of there, I'm in a dangerous gray zone. I don't want a big lawsuit or a criminal complaint for assault because I crossed the line. If some drunk is pawing at me and getting uppity, I really don't want to end his child bearing future with a too-powerful kick. I want to knock him back with a controlled strike, without getting in a grapple and then get out of there.

I know some folks who practice Tae Kwon Do and I've heard good things about it.
 
I'd definitely recommend against kendo or modern fencing. Both are just sports, with absolutely nothing to do with actual combat.
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Upon what actual experience do you base your observations? Granted, both are sports, but both will teach you far more about footwork, distancing and timing than any unarmed form that you care to name. I've had many, many students come from other martial arts who thought they'd automatically have an advantage in swordsmanship because they'd seen lots of movies where their hero picked up a sword and was automatically good with it. Turns out they were sadly mistaken, and some actually stuck around to learn something, to their benefit.

In my experience, weapons training forces you to focus your attention outside your own body and work with distances that are far different than simply working with your own body does. I would submit that kendo and fencing are far more realistic representations of combat than you can imagine if you haven't tried them.

Then again, I'm just giving someone advice on something that they might try based on actual experience and training, not expressing my prejudices. ;)

But that may not always work, esp. if my lines of retreat are messed up. If someone presents a clearly non-deadly threat and I can't get out of there, I'm in a dangerous gray zone. I don't want a big lawsuit or a criminal complaint for assault because I crossed the line. If some drunk is pawing at me and getting uppity, I really don't want to end his child bearing future with a too-powerful kick. I want to knock him back with a controlled strike, without getting in a grapple and then get out of there.
Click to expand...

Ahh, given that clarification, you might think about one of the forms of aikido. The movement, footwork and techniques are based on empty hand application of, strangely enough, swordsmanship. Even though swordsmanship has nothing to do with combat. ;)
 
I am also a TKD guy ( 23 years ) , w/ some Muay Thai & Judo.

Glock Glockler said it all : the place you don't want to be is the place to gain the skill. Looks like the Southnarc course is the best place to start: Zero to 5 feet.

I am saving my pennies for his expensive classes.
 
Considering the fact that there are 3,000+ forms of martial arts, I doubt that any of us possesses sufficient knowledge of each as to be able to say with any degree of authority which style is superior.

In the 40 years that I have student of the arts, and the 26ish years that I have instructed them, I have found and settled into those systems that fit me best. That hardly constitutes the best system though, but for me.

The best system is what works for you, and only to the extent you pursue it with genuine passion.
 
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