Modern Vest Pocket Automatic

[glassman]

Beretta tomcat inox version.

 

[barnetmill]

Just wondering if we’re discussing vest-pocket pistols for fun, or for actual EDC use?

I’ve owned (past tense) a Bauer .25acp, a NAA Guardian .380acp, and an AMT Backup .380acp. Interesting range guns, and of historical interest. The Bauer wasn’t reliable enough for carry but was a hoot to shoot. The NAA & AMT were a handful to shoot, being .380 blowback and small. Both were interesting but border line painful to shoot for more than a couple of magazines. I still own a couple of Spanish “Ruby style” .25’s that are vest pocket sized, and they are fun range guns, too. They’re actually reliable but I’d never carry them with one in the chamber.

For actual EDC, the Kel Tec P32 (& practically same size LCP & recently discontinued P3AT if you want .380acp) are the most useful; I’ve got a couple of those. The NAA Guardian is a bit smaller, but heavier. I’ve never handled a Seacamp, but from online specs it’s a tad smaller that the Guardian.
View attachment 1077485
I’m attaching a photo overlay comparison of the Guardian over the P32 from handgunhero.com (useful web page)

I found the 380 double action AMT backup to be an excellent gun. Did not have sights, but I could still hit things at closer ranges with it for me it was not painful to shoot. Always worked, but field stripping required removal of a pin. When carried a bit it collected a lot of pocket lint.

 

[barnetmill]

I do. A friend of mine used to carry his Baby in his back pocket in a folded hankie. I carried mine the same way. He was working in the garden with his wife, bent over, and the gun went off. Luckily the only injury was to his jeans. His wife wasnt real happy though, and that wrath was probably worse than getting shot.

I quit carrying mine soon after that, mainly because of that, although, I never had an issue with mine.

Yes, a holster would have been better, but there really wasnt much available for them back in the late 70's, early 80's when we were carrying them and the hankies seemed to work well, other than this.

I went to a P32 after that, and had a lot of trouble with it, and then carried an old Colt pocket gun for a little while, and then picked up my first Seecamp and have yet to find anything better for this sort of gun.

Was the safety on when it discharged. If carried loosely in a pocket I would think that safety could get moved to the off position and the trigger moved.
wrapped in a handkerchief while

He was working in the garden with his wife, bent over, and the gun went off.

IS why I asked the question. Did he verify a mechanical failure of the mechanism? Did the sear fracture ( tiny sliver of metal) as you were suggesting was possible. If so it was lucky that the gun do not go full auto in pocket.

Part 20 is the sear and that is what I believe you talking about

 

[trackskippy]

Was the safety on when it discharged. If carried loosely in a pocket I would think that safety could get moved to the off position and the trigger moved.
wrapped in a handkerchief while

According to him, the safety was on when the gun was put in the pocket. He figured it got knocked off, probably by the hankie while doing physical stuff and that that somehow got into the trigger and tripped it.

I don't think there was anything mechanically wrong with the gun.

Personally, I just think its another case of relying on a manual safety as if it was something perfect. Holster or not, it happens. I used to find the thumb safety on my 1911's off at the end of the day on a regular basis. The only difference there is, they were in a proper holster.

 

[defjon]

Vest pocket pistol to me means something metal framed and classier than the p32 or lcp.

What about as mentioned, a sig p238 rosewood inox or colt mustang equivalent?

 

[barnetmill]

According to him, the safety was on when the gun was put in the pocket. He figured it got knocked off, probably by the hankie while doing physical stuff and that that somehow got into the trigger and tripped it.

I don't think there was anything mechanically wrong with the gun.

Personally, I just think its another case of relying on a manual safety as if it was something perfect. Holster or not, it happens. I used to find the thumb safety on my 1911's off at the end of the day on a regular basis. The only difference there is, they were in a proper holster.

Yes you have two good points about safeties. For a pistol the gun must be in a holster if a safety is not to get knocked off.
Then you did make a good point about how the sear, even if the safety was engaged in many pistols can break spontaneously. Rare, but I believe it could happen.
For autoloading pistols I believe that an empty chamber is very safe that needs to be balanced by the delay needed to chamber a round in a life or death scenario where time is short.
I use a glock with the tau device that allows me to monitor any possible pull on the trigger as I reholster slowly and softly. Most ADs with LEOs and glocks are upon reholstering; most common with the bugger plucker in the trigger, but also a shirt tail or something else could also get wedged in the holster to actuate a trigger. There is the story of a glock in a purse and a tube of lipstick in the trigger guard setting it off.

 

[barnetmill]

[QUOTE="trackskippy, post: 12293536, member: 131204"................

Personally, I just think its another case of relying on a manual safety as if it was something perfect. Holster or not, it happens. I used to find the thumb safety on my 1911's off at the end of the day on a regular basis. The only difference there is, they were in a proper holster.[/QUOTE]
The holster must cover everything and be stiff enough.

Very Unsafe



Much safer

 

[trackskippy]

In theory, that might be safer, but even with the holsters I used for carry with my 1911's that had sweat shields, that covered the safety on the body side (none of my 1911's have/had ambi safeties), I still would find the safety off. Not that it really matters, as the trigger is the important part to be covered.

A big advantage these days, and for most things is, we have amazing selections now, for both guns and accessories, that weren't around 40 years ago. But even then, a lot of the older guns are still left out now, as they arent the cool kids on the block they once were and holsters for them can be spotty.

As someone mentioned earlier, the older guns are really more "pocket jewelry", especially compared to what we see today. The Seecamp still being an exception there, as its more functional pocket jewelry.

Things like the LCP, Keltec, etc, are more utilitarian, and on top of that, trending away from the smaller calibers. But with that trend to larger in caliber, you also get, for the most part, larger guns.

For me, if you're going to carry one of those, you might as well just carry something like a Glock 26. Which is exactly the progression I made. I carry my 26 in the exact same type holsters and in the exact same place I carried my Seecamps in, and I get a much more realistic gun to work with.

Unlike stuff like this, it just isnt "jewelry". Although I could maybe see a Seecamp pulling it off.

 

[Old Dog]

For autoloading pistols I believe that an empty chamber is very safe that needs to be balanced by the delay needed to chamber a round in a life or death scenario where time is short.
I use a glock with the tau device that allows me to monitor any possible pull on the trigger as I reholster slowly and softly. Most ADs with LEOs and glocks are upon reholstering; most common with the bugger plucker in the trigger, but also a shirt tail or something else could also get wedged in the holster to actuate a trigger. There is the story of a glock in a purse and a tube of lipstick in the trigger guard setting it off.

Personally, I just think its another case of relying on a manual safety as if it was something perfect. Holster or not, it happens. I used to find the thumb safety on my 1911's off at the end of the day on a regular basis. The only difference there is, they were in a proper holster.

Why did I just know this thread would go down this rabbit-hole?

"I used to find the thumb safety on my 1911's off at the end of the day on a regular basis." While I can't say this has never happened to me, had it ever been occurring on a regular basis, I certainly would have questioned what I was doing wrong, or carried a 1911 with a safety providing more positive engagement.

As for chamber-empty carry...

 

[bannockburn]

defjon

What about as mentioned, a sig p238 rosewood inox or colt mustang equivalent?

I have both and they are just too big for a true vest pocket gun. Plus they both are SAO so they have frame mounted safeties that may work themselves off riding just in the vest pocket without a holster. To me they're great for using with an IWB holster (like the DeSantis SOF-TUCK holster). Small and lightweight, you can carry them all day and not even notice that they are there!

Here's where the Mustang compares in size to a Colt Commander and also how the Baby Browning shows it's size with a Browning Hi-Power.

 

[barnetmill]

W


As for chamber-empty carry...
View attachment 1077569

You have it backwards.

A seat belt is a safety measure as is the safety on a 1911.
Not having the seat belt on is similar to have your safety on a 1911 disengaged while you carry it.

I carry a glock with round chambered. It is not inherently 99.999% safe, but it is safe enough. No round in the chamber is safer relative AD, less safer when not having time to respond to a threat.
There was a time when the 1911 was carried by the military on an empty chamber

 

[TTv2]

The P32 might not be as pretty or refined as what one would imagine a “vest pocket” gun should be, but it would be pretty hard to beat from a practical perspective.

It just needs a striker instead of a DAO trigger.

 

[barnetmill]

Why did I just know this thread would go down this rabbit-hole?

"I used to find the thumb safety on my 1911's off at the end of the day on a regular basis." While I can't say this has never happened to me, had it ever been occurring on a regular basis, I certainly would have questioned what I was doing wrong, or carried a 1911 with a safety providing more positive engagement.

As for chamber-empty carry...
View attachment 1077569

I did not say"

barnetmill said: ↑
Personally, I just think its another case of relying on a manual safety as if it was something perfect. Holster or not, it happens. I used to find the thumb safety on my 1911's off at the end of the day on a regular basis. The only difference there is, they were in a proper holster.

You edited my name on to someone else's statement.

 

[Old Dog]

I did not say"
You edited my name on to someone else's statement.

Ah, you are correct, good sir! I quoted your post -- quoting another -- rather than quoting the original post by the member who made the post you quoted. My bad!

 

[No Quarter]

Seecamp 380 for me. 7 rounds of Federal HST as fast as you can pull the trigger. Gun has been flawless over hundreds of rounds. Mine is an original Milford. I also have 2 Milford .32 Seecamps

The manual of arms is easy to master unless you are just plain incapable of practice and learning.

 

[barnetmill]

Seecamp 380 for me. 7 rounds of Federal HST as fast as you can pull the trigger. Gun has been flawless over hundreds of rounds. Mine is an original Milford. I also have 2 Milford .32 Seecamps

The manual of arms is easy to master unless you are just plain incapable of practice and learning.

How is the recoil on it? The seecamp uses an old trick to slow down a light wt slide:

Care & Maintenance - LW Seecamp Co.
http://www.seecamp.com › caremaintenance
The LWS 32 & LWS 380 both have a recessed ring in the chamber into which the case expands on firing, making the weapon a delayed blowback

I suggest taking care with reloading since my guess, there is some stretching of the case upon firing.

 

[toivo]

The manual of arms is easy to master unless you are just plain incapable of practice and learning.

I don't doubt it. But you'd better do that practicing if you're going to carry a Seecamp. You can't assume that you know how to unload just because you know how to unload other semi-auto pistols. I'm not really sold on the idea of the magazine-out-slide-lock making the gun any safer.

 

[No Quarter]

How is the recoil on it? The seecamp uses an old trick to slow down a light wt slide:

I suggest taking care with reloading since my guess, there is some stretching of the case upon firing.

The recoil is stout, but it snuggles into my hand just fine. I find that if I keep my thumb a little loose, it directs the recoil into the meat of my hand rather than the web between my thumb and trigger finger.
For pull and shoot practice with a mag dump, it functions fine with even a less than perfect grip.

I have put up to 100 rounds through it in a single range session without malfunction, but normally only shoot 20 rounds just to refamiliarize and function check.

The .32 recoil is much easier on the hand, but I just like the 380 more.

The annular ring on the chamber is what retards the recoil. The brass expands into the rings and slows the slide. You just need to make sure you give the little gun a good cleaning after a range session to avoid malfunctions. You're probably right that reloading the brass might be iffy.

 

[No Quarter]

I don't doubt it. But you'd better do that practicing if you're going to carry a Seecamp. You can't assume that you know how to unload just because you know how to unload other semi-auto pistols. I'm not really sold on the idea of the magazine-out-slide-lock making the gun any safer.

True. It has a unique manual of arms. You do get used to it pretty quickly. It becomes second-nature. People regularly ask to see/shoot the gun at the range. I have to be careful to explain and demonstrate the unique method to clear it.

 

[usp9]

Long time Seecamp LWS32 carrier here. Chose it because of the reliability reputation. Over many years that reputation was confirmed. Great gun.

I now carry a slightly larger gun, a Beretta Pico, for pretty much the same reason. Reliability. After five years of use it has been proven.