Oh no!...PGO!

[amd6547]

Which has been my point all along, Leadhead. My PGO Mossberg will perform perfecly adequately in responding to something going bump in the night, and it's minimal size allows me store it where no stocked shotgun, or any of the folders I have tried will go.
My initial posted response to a moderator beating this dead horse 4 or 5 days after the last post was "Ho Hum"...which was promptly deleted as apparently not being High Road enough, I guess. Why dont we all just agree to disagree and let this die a natural death.

 

[Leadhead]

A person can be as slow as they want, or use whatever guns they want. That's their own deal. I take issue when someone claims that performance is something it is not (eg "quick and accurate") once compared with a wider perspective of known shooting abilities ("your average 3-Gun shooter").

I'd be stoked to have you "serious" competitor types as neighbors and as team members for a fire fight with multiple hostiles.

It sounds like you are still hung up on your personal belief of what fast is...

But when it comes to quantifying quick and accurate, I'd say a load of buckshot around 1300fps, placed center of mass, is both fast and accurate enough for me.

On behalf of the people who don't hate PGO.....I would like to apologize to all the people that were offended by the original posters claim that old Hickok was fast and accurate!
The original poster likely has no experience in gun racing and therefore his perception of fast and accurate may have been tainted by his lack of skill and experience.
For the record I will say that in my opinion Ol Hickok is fast enough, and accurate enough, that I would pity the fool who violates the sanctity of his home.

 

[Leadhead]

Why dont we all just agree to disagree and let this die a natural death.

You are probably right.
But this PGO thread is the longest lasting in the history of my participation here at THR....maybe there is no "natural death" for the PGO topic.

It's a zombie topic.

 

[Guns and more]

what the people who are proponents of PGO shotguns seem to forget is that the PGO shotgun is now a specialized weapon which is only marginally suitable for one circumstance, whereas a stocked shotgun can be used in a wider variety of situations, making it more convenient to maintain proficiency with,and more cost effective to own, since you don't need to buy an additional gun with a stock to hunt with or shoot clays or do 3 gun.

I don't hunt, shoot clays or 3 gun. Maybe I should give the last two a try. I used to hunt, and I have chosen to let the hunters kill game, it's not for me anymore.

But..........in my home, the P/G rules.

But this PGO thread is the longest lasting in the history of my participation here at THR....maybe there is no "natural death" for the PGO topic.

It's like the old grumpy guys in the Muppets. They watch from the sidelines and criticize everything.
I'm not trying to convince anybody to use a P/G for anything. I've never started a P/G thread. I've never criticized anyone for having a full stock, heck, get a shotgun with a 100" barrel if you like.

 

[Zak Smith]

But when it comes to quantifying quick and accurate, I'd say a load of buckshot around 1300fps, placed center of mass, is both fast and accurate enough for me.

By this logic you might as well shoot a single-shot bolt-action shotgun, or a Contender, since only one shot is required.

 

[Leadhead]

I don't think you can compare Statler and Waldor to the "I don't like PGO, therefore they are useless" crowd.
And I also get the feeling that some of the haters are not on the sidelines but out in the field given'er hard.
They are just choosing to look at the issue from their own perspective, which in the end is what we all must do.

 

[Leadhead]

By this logic you might as well shoot a single-shot bolt-action shotgun, or a Contender, since only one shot is required.

Exactly.

Back in the day a single or double barrel break action was plenty of firepower.

Since it doesn't add much weight or size to the package though, I will take my 4 shot 870 over my single shot cooey 84.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

is the PGO shotgun more effective then a shotgun with a stock, either rigid or folding? this is a yes or no question.


I cannot fathom the train of thought allows someone to look at their preparation for a life or death encounter and say "meh. good enough."

the guy in the video was shooting in broad daylight, under no pressure of any kind, and without anyone trying to kill him.

I defy you to run a PGO shotgun, fixed stock shotgun, or any other firearm in the dark, under stress. you will be unhappily surprised at your performance.

 

[Leadhead]

is the PGO shotgun more effective then a shotgun with a stock, either rigid or folding? this is a yes or no question.

No.

 

[Leadhead]

I guess were done here now that Andrew has simplified it for us....

Well maybe not.

Another simple question is,

Is a blast of 12g buckshot to the chest from a PGO less effective than the same blast made with a full stock?

Yes or No please.

 

[rbernie]

No.

Of course, you'll have a harder time getting it there under duress and movement, but don't let that get in the way of your planning for the worst...

 

[Sam1911]

... planning for the worst...

Oh. I thought this was planning for the BEST. As in, "Awww, heck. This will be easy! I bet I could even pull it off with a PGO!"

Where is the challenge in defending your home with the most effective weapon? That would take the fun out if it, right?

 

[Gord]

Is a blast of 12g buckshot to the chest from a PGO less effective than the same blast made with a full stock?

Yes or No please.

You already answered that one yourself. If a PGO shotgun is less effective than a full-stocked shotgun, then necessarily, a shot fired from a PGO must also be less effective in some quantifiable way; say, accuracy, speed on target, or recoil. Or all three.

Being able to aim and perform follow-up shots quickly and accurately is paramount in a HD scenario. Even given a single attacker versus multiples - no, you probably won't have to repel boarders, but burglars do work in pairs (or small teams) often - the bad guy doesn't always go down or quit trying to kill you on the first shot, even if that's a 12ga shell full of 00 buck. He definitely won't go down if that first shot misses because your incredible hand-eye coordination and hipshooting prowess isn't as godlike at 2AM as you thought.

Given a standard 9mm handgun and an unwieldy, heavy-recoiling Desert Eagle, which would you consider a better serious-business weapon? Which would you expect a homeowner to be more quick, accurate and generally proficient with after 500 rounds of practice?

 

[Leadhead]

Let's just pretend that some people can hit a chest sized target at short range with a PGO... and while we are on fantasy island let's pretend they can also pump another shell into the chamber in case the guy who takes one in the chest is a stubborn PGO hater or he just read that PGO's are useless somewhere....

 

[Gord]

I didn't say they couldn't. They will, however, probably not be as quick to the shot, as accurate, or as ready for an immediate follow-up shot as someone wielding a full-stocked shotgun would.

If those factors don't sound like they should be of any paramount importance in a self-defense scenario, then it seems like some choice words about priorities would be in order.

 

[30mag]

I'd like to point out that PGOs happen to be a bit more compact that a stocked shotgun. I'd rather be shooting a stocked shotgun than a PGO, but I'd also rather shoot a rifle than a handgun.
Sometimes, it's more convenient to carry a handgun (or more legal) than a rifle. Sometimes, it's be more convenient to store a PGO shotgun than a stocked shotgun when space is limited. In a sports car for example.
I want a PGO.
There was a beat up Mossberg 500 PGO in 20 gauge at Cabela's that was real cheap. Worn finish. Synthetic furniture. A real junker. It would have been perfect.
I'm only 20, and they have a 21 year age limit at Academy on 'assault weapons'. I didn't know if Cabela's had the same thing or if that had anything to do with the AOW stuff concering PGOs. Didn't have any money anyways.

 

[Gord]

There is no "AOW stuff" concerning PGOs unless the PGO in question has a barrel that is <18" and was built as a pistol from the factory.

I already addressed the space-saver claim on the previous page. Strangely, no one has responded yet...

 

[Mp7]

at Leadhead .... ROFL!

i guess nobody sees a PGO as a tactical superweapon.
But it´s way better than a bat. And it will in most cases do
that job better.

Better than a stick. Way better.
i wouldnt feel unarmed with a Serbu super shorty.

 

[30mag]

I didn't say they couldn't. They will, however, probably not be as quick to the shot, as accurate, or as ready for an immediate follow-up shot as someone wielding a full-stocked shotgun would.

If those factors don't sound like they should be of any paramount importance in a self-defense scenario, then it seems like some choice words about priorities would be in order.

Hmmm... it seems like handguns are inferior to rifles. Yet we acknowledge they have a role to fill. Why can't we acknowledge that PGOs have a place in the armory also?

 

[Gord]

Hmmm... it seems like handguns are inferior to rifles. Yet we acknowledge they have a role to fill. Why can't we acknowledge that PGOs have a place in the armory also?

Handguns are way smaller and less obtrusive than non-SBR/SBS long guns. PGOs are not appreciably more compact than full-stocked shotguns.

You're also talking about completely different roles. Handguns are generally accepted to be a compromise in effectiveness and ability - a rather serious one - for the trade-offs of concealability and carryability.

Unless you're going to CCW a PGO, I'm not really following your argument.

No one is going to choose a handgun to defeat a barrier or engage hostiles with, given the availability of anything better. Essentially, that is what PGOs are - a nonsensical compromise in effectiveness when there is generally no need nor any real logic to be found as a reason for that compromise.

 

[Zak Smith]

One thing competitive shooting has taught me is that it is possible to miss with a shotgun at close distances-- at stationary targets, in daylight, with only the pressure and stress of the "clock", with no uncertainty about the situation.

If misses are possible and common in this scenario- using my "average 3-Gunner" as an example- then it is clear to me that when the target is moving, or it is dark or low light, or there is the stress from being in a fight, and the situation is not completely certain (ie what's going on and how many assaillents), the shooter will be more likely to miss.

Once you miss, you need to load another round into the chamber, possibly reload the shotgun itself, reacquire a sight picture (or otherwise "aim" the shotgun) and fire.

While popular belief says that a pump shotgun cannot malfunction, in practice, it takes a lot more training for a person to be able to operate a pump shotgun reliably and at the same speed compared to a semi-auto shotgun (use the M1S90 as an example comparison). A pump PGO is slower to operate and re-acquire the sight picture because the whole gun moves when it's pumped. You can see this in the video in the OP. In contrast, a conventional shock gun will generally not move off the target (ie still aimed at target) as it's being pumped.

This is why the "I only need one shot" argument is invalid.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Leadhead, try this......

Set up any COF you want at the most LIKELY distance of engagement in your residence. Use anything you want for targets, soda cans, clay pigeons, melons.

Have someone time you as you shoot them. First, use that PGO. Second, the same model shotgun with a standard stock. Compare hits and times. Then do it under stress, say run in place for two minutes and wear welder's goggles to simulate low light.

Now compare your performances. THAT will give you real world data on how a PGO compares to a standard shotgun where it counts.....

 

[Justin]

Even a COF using steel poppers or standard IPSC paper targets would be instructive.

 

[amd6547]

These COF's seem designed to "prove" a PGO is not superior to a stocked shotgun...Something I have certainly never claimed. Just the opposite...I have stated clearly that I believe the stocked shotgun is superior for "most" uses, and that my Mossberg PGO is not my only shotgun.
However, after decades of shooting PGO shotguns with various pistol grips, and having now arrived at the SpeedFeed birdshead grip which I feel is the best of all, I am confidant in my ability to engage multiple targets at close range quickly and efficiently.
At the same time, my PGO is as short and compact in all dimensions as the law allows without going through NFA paperwork. As such, it fills a niche that no stocked or folding stocked shotgun can.
If you time a PGO shotgun that fills my particular needs against the non-existant stocked shotgun that cannot fit my needs, the PGO will win every time.

 

[Guns and more]

Set up any COF you want at the most LIKELY distance of engagement in your residence. Use anything you want for targets, soda cans, clay pigeons, melons.

Have someone time you as you shoot them. First, use that PGO. Second, the same model shotgun with a standard stock. Compare hits and times. Then do it under stress, say run in place for two minutes and wear welder's goggles to simulate low light.

Now compare your performances. THAT will give you real world data on how a PGO compares to a standard shotgun where it counts.....

That's the silliest thing I've ever read. You want to set up a completely fake scenario, and then call it "real world data".
"Run in place for two minutes and wear welder's goggles". You forgot, "stand on one foot and rub your stomach while weaving a Persian rug, for extra real world data."

..........and if I hit the melon on the first try, what's the purpose of timing me?

This is so entertaining, keep it coming..............

Here's my challenge to you. Take a full stock shotgun of your choice, wear a blindfold, and wear skin diver's flippers. Then run through your house screaming "Banzai" while shooting. See how many windows you break. Now there's real world data.