Ohio allows Straight-walled cartridge rifles! Now which one to get?

[Reloadron]

This gun shop located in beautiful Streetsboro, Ohio has a few blue Marlin 45-70 guns they are asking $630 for and one in stainless for I think $750 if that trips your trigger. I have no clue what they generally sell for. I have a Marlin 444 I got maybe 20 years ago (actually my wife bought it for me) and haven't a clue what that gun cost. Every gun shop will be hawking the rifles like this and as is the case with this rifle "NOW LEGAL FOR OHIO DEER SEASON" will be included in the advertising.

I have been to this shop and it's a nice place with good people. Maybe a 20 min. ride for me. If I didn't have a trip planned next month for fun I would pop the bucks and buy the gun myself. Just to compliment my 444 Marlin.

Ron

 

[Domino300]

Mooner wrote: "You list 45 Colt and 45 Long Colt. They are the same."

Whoever made up the list for the state of Ohio apparently doesn;t know that, as it was written that way. Maybe they're just covering all their bases.

 

[19-3Ben]

My vote was for the .45-70.
As has been mentioned several times, you can always download the bullet.
You can use very heavy bullets with relatively low velocities to get a nice, mellow, slow "shove" of recoil, but still get great penetration on the other end.

 

[yzguy87]

As one mentioned earlier, I would expect to fall out of the slug gun market making them nearly obsolete in the state.

Not that I'm complaining or anything. I've been looking forward to this for a long time!

 

[BCRider]

Since I have had shoulder surgery once and don't want another I don't want one kicking like a mule also gun weight is an issue as well for hunting up and down the eastern hills.

I started to fill in a bunch of options that I like. Then I read this part of your first post.

Based on that I can heartily recommend the .38-55 loaded with a moderately heavy cast bullet of around 260 to 280gns loafing along at around 1400 fps and shot from a lever gun. Or possibly something like and single shot like a TC Encore or H&R Handi Rifle.

The rainbow like trajectory you get from such a load isn't going to run flat. So knowing the distance and working to keep the shots closer in will be very important.

I personally shoot the .38-55 in that sort of loading from a single shot Remington rolling block rifle. And I've shot the same round from an 1886 lever. Both platforms give a light to moderate push. And it's noticeably more of a push than the Winchester 94 shooting the .30-30 I also really like.

Back that up with a good soft recoil pad and I'd be willing to bet that if the doc OK's you for any sort of shooting other than .22 that you would be fine with the big long .38-55.

I don't hunt myself but folks that do seem to think that anything that heavy running at around that speed is fully capable of traveling through a deer from stem to stern.

I see that a large number have voted for a .45-70. The times I've shot even the big and heavy Sharps with 45-70 loads I've only confirmed that it's not a round I'd want to shoot a lot of over the course of a day. And I'm not the only one that has nodded in agreement when I've voiced this. I've even converted a 45-70 owner to the idea by letting him shoot my Remington. And I don't even what to know what shooting them from a lighter lever gun is like.

Of course you can always load down. But by the time you get them down to being as soft as my .38-55 you'd be able to toss a rock with your good arm out further.

The other big vote getter is the .44Mag. And the primary way of delivering such rounds would more than likely be a Marlin, Winchester or Rossi lever gun. I'm here to tell you that full house .44's from these guns hit the shoulder at least as hard as a .30-30 from a 94. If you can tolerate that then fine. But be warned.

Another option is to shoot using black powder loads in one of the cartridges originally designed for black powder. Shooting the black will reduce the "CRACK!" and make it more of a "THUMP!". If you've shot any black powder guns you'll know what I mean by this. It changes the recoil from more of a slap to more of a sudden push. That might well prove easier on your shoulder as well. Especially combined with a good shoulder pad.

 

[artee]

Great for Ohio. Been peering across the state line into Indiana and all my relatives enjoying their law the last 5 or so years. Have an associate trying to move a similar bill through Lansing the last 3 secessions.

My pick for OP, lies entirely with that shoulder injury. First 357 Mag. If you can try a 44 Mag from any long gun and it's tolerable for long term, high sustained usage, then go 44 Mag. Both these cartridges are available in repeaters and single shots, in rifles not so handy (24 in "Cowboy" models) and very handy (16ish inch 'trappers' or single shots) Both these two cartridges are widely available and get a lot of attention from the Big 3. They are not frozen in time. Nosler brought out a partition style bullet for each that was factory loaded and is the cat's meow. (But, I don't know if in factory loads it died during our recent depression). Hornady has leverevolution (pointy plastic tipped) ammo to flatten trajectory for a few more yards of useful range. Both have factory loaded ammunition designed for deer/big game and not like most of the other pistol calibers, to meet a 2 legged threat around FBI specs. The same can be said for available bullets to handload. Remember that a carbine/rifle length barrel is pushing most expanding pistol bullets far above their design envelope. Both are great cast bullet cartridges. No matter what Idiosyncrasies your chosen rifle may have (over all length, throating, or feed issues), there is likely a production mould design that will work with it. In reloading, beyond the excellent bullet availability and choice, the excellent case availability, if a manufacturer makes a carbide size die, they make it in these 2 cartridges, and its a tier 1/lowest price level die to boot. That carbide die translates into higher production rates and less work, less futzing around lubing and cleaning off case lube.

have to agree with BCRider on his 45-70 comments. Although it would be my personal first choice, if you are on a comfort level of only 5 12ga slugs, it's not for you. No body on this board has a lower number '95, or has reloaded and hunted with it longer than me. From 800 fps round balls to 500 grain cast and every jacket bullet and most cast in between. It's not for your shoulder.

 

[artee]

tragic double post

 

[Grumulkin]

If you're going to have an advantate over a shotgun, you probably ought to pick a cartridge with better range and accuracy potential than a shotgun. In my opinion, offerings like the 357 Magnum, the 44 Magnum, 38 Special, 45 Auto and some of the others give you no or minimal advantage over a shotgun.

If you want a very accurate 200+ yard hammer the 460 S&W Magnum and 444 Marlin should be on your list. Mine in handgun configuration will do about 1.5 inch groups at 200 yards. I've never shot them, but I think the 357 Maximum, 45-70 and 375 Winchester would have similar potential.

All that said, if I decided to take a rifle deer hunting in Ohio, it would be a 45-70 since I already have an Encore barrel in that chambering that I've never used since I bought it several years ago. Considering what my Encore handguns will do, I might not bother with a rifle though.

 

[spaniel]

"How exactly are bottle neck cartridges more dangerous to other hunters than a .444 Marlin? Either you know what's directly behind your target or you don't, the use of straight walled cartridges doesn't magically make it ok to lob bullets off into the wild blue yonder. If ricochets are what you're concerned about, shotgun slugs and other heavy slow rounds are about the worst offenders."

Simple physics. Heavy slow rounds will not travel 1.5 miles or more off a ricochet on soft ground, a .30-06 or 300WM round will. I have seen it with my own eyes. I do not need the 10 hunters in an 80 acres woods 600 yards from me who fire 100+ rounds on opening morning armed with bottleneck rifle cartridges. This is not an exaggeration, I stopped counting at 100 last opening morning and I only heard the ATV start up twice to retrieve a deer.

If you think high velocity bottleneck bullets magically disintegrate while heavy slow bullets stick together, you're buying into a fairy tale. There are plenty of bullet designs for high velocity bullets which hold together well and ricochet long distances. I was present when multiple .30cal Sierra Match Kings impacted on soft, rock-free plowed ground, then ended up passing over someone's head 1.5 miles downrange when Remington Core-Lokts from the same rifle were recovered 30 yards behind the target.

It's all well and good to talk about what is safe practice and not, but the real world is I too often am surrounded by slobs hunters. It is a simple fact that most bottleneck cartridges will send bullets further than straight-walled cartridges.

This is, after all, the exact reason they were created.

Now, Indiana is a bit weird in that we don't have a straight-walled rule bit a max cartridge length and minimum bullet diameter. In fact I have a rifle at the smith right now being chambered for a wildcat round that meets the rules but matches the ballistics of the 35 Whelen. So it's a gray area. But I doubt the ignorant yahoos spraying bullets are investing $2000 in such a rifle, and certainly not in large numbers. And, frankly, my smokeless muzzleloader can produce similar ballistics.

 

[heycods]

My vote was for the 45/70 but I sympathise with the bad shoulder, so I guess I would suggest the 454 casull for me and you, but I admit I have a weakness for the 45 colt that can be used in same rifle.
I presently own a Rossi in 45 colt, love the gun no qualms of shooting deer to 100 yds. I have also in the past owned the 44mag and the 357 mag Lever marlins, for trajectory i prefered the 357 I think the 357 mag option would make a fine deer rifle to replace the shotgun, But saying that I have never shot a 357 max in a rifle, so its pure speculation.

 

[Badlander]

I voted for The .45 colt. But if you do not reload you will not be able to find good hunting ammo. Buy the .44 mag. If you do reload you can taylor some awesome loads. 300 grain hardcast over A full charge of H110 and you have an elk rifle.

 

[Gtscotty]

Simple physics. Heavy slow rounds will not travel 1.5 miles or more off a ricochet on soft ground, a .30-06 or 300WM round will. I have seen it with my own eyes. I do not need the 10 hunters in an 80 acres woods 600 yards from me who fire 100+ rounds on opening morning armed with bottleneck rifle cartridges. This is not an exaggeration, I stopped counting at 100 last opening morning and I only heard the ATV start up twice to retrieve a deer.

If you think high velocity bottleneck bullets magically disintegrate while heavy slow bullets stick together, you're buying into a fairy tale. There are plenty of bullet designs for high velocity bullets which hold together well and ricochet long distances. I was present when multiple .30cal Sierra Match Kings impacted on soft, rock-free plowed ground, then ended up passing over someone's head 1.5 miles downrange when Remington Core-Lokts from the same rifle were recovered 30 yards behind the target.

I guess I've had enough physics to know that sometimes simple physics.. isn't.

I agree that on the surface the assertion that shotguns and straight-walled cartridges are safer for hunting than bottle neck rifles makes sense, Just like "More guns equals more murder" makes sense. Both of these mantras, however, break down under actual analysis.

I absolutely believe that high velocity rifle bullets are more likely to start tumbling upon striking the ground than slugs, which are more likely to retain a stable flight profile and ricochet further under normal shooting angles. I guess we each are buying into our own fairy tales, but mine is a little more in line with this study that was funded by the Pennsylvania legislature.

http://www.ihea.com/_assets/documents/AFWA_Presentation_9-18-07.pdf

Far be it from me to cast aside one man's hunting experiences, but on the other hand, Picatinny Arsenal's numbers are pretty convincing.

The shotgun (or straight wall cartridge) only hunting laws maybe well intentioned, but like many other firearms related laws, I believe they are not so much grounded in what is as they are in what some politician thinks maybe, might sort of possibly be. That said, I don't want to derail this thread any further, Ohio residents seem to be making gains against these nonsensical laws, but as we've seen in the past couple years, that is the best time to keep the charge rolling.

 

[zeek96]

Hey guys I very much appreciate the suggestions and reasons why. I am finding it very helpful but I do ask that you stick to the topics and avoid rants on the reasons why only these cartridges were selected by the politicians. The good news is, is that rifles will be allowed and these and these only are the options. So please stick to the topic and the limitations stated. I greatly appreciate the help on this selection and why. If you have a rifle manufacture selection that helps too. Also knowledge about reloading supply availability is good to know as well.
Thanks guys.

 

[CoalTrain49]

44 mag would be my first choice. If you reload you can get a 357 up to about 2000 fps with a 125 gr. bullet safely. That's one heck of a versatile cartridge right there.

 

[zeek96]

With these rifles which has good triggers in them and are tapped for scopes any suggestions. I have read that the marlins 1894s have horrible sloppy triggers and winchester isn't tapped and would be side mounted for the 1892. Any suggestions or experiences with these? The golden boys I have read are tapped but the brass is soft and may be a problem if shot a lot.

 

[Manny]

I vote .357 Magnum, as thats what I just got. Lots of the other cartridges look interesting, the .45/70 especially. But I'm big into the KISS theory, and didn't want to add another cartridge to my inventory. The little .357 out of a rifle is a pretty serious deer slaying round and I've got a little TC Contender rifle in .357 thats a pure delight to carry & shoot.

 

[redneck2]

My friend that got the 183 used a semi-auto Ruger. He also has two bolt Rugers and a lever action (I think it's also Ruger). All in .44 Mag.

As for how much it takes to kill a deer.....a few years back I had a front on shot on a small 8 point. 12 gauge slug took off the front of one lung, blew apart the heart, and shredded the other lung. Exited just in front of the ham. Deer still ran 150-200 yards. If he'd made it into the woods I'd have had a hard time finding him.

 

[bannockburn]

I would go with a .45-70 as my first choice. Next would be something (most likely a lever action), in a .44 Mag or a .45 Colt.

 

[mavracer]

With these rifles which has good triggers in them and are tapped for scopes any suggestions. I have read that the marlins 1894s have horrible sloppy triggers and winchester isn't tapped and would be side mounted for the 1892. Any suggestions or experiences with these? The golden boys I have read are tapped but the brass is soft and may be a problem if shot a lot.

The Marlin trigger is pretty easy to fix Wild West Guns has a drop in trigger that makes a Marlin trigger sweet.
The Ruger 77 has a great trigger and comes with scope rings.

 

[Legionnaire]

With these rifles which has good triggers in them and are tapped for scopes any suggestions. I have read that the marlins 1894s have horrible sloppy triggers ...

No idea what your budget is, but Wild West Guns makes a drop-in replacement trigger for the 1894 that fixes the sloppy trigger. $80 or so from Midway or Brownell's.

Edit: Huh. mavracer beat me to it. Must have been typing at the sametime.

Addition: The Marlin 1894 is a great gun in either .357 or .44 and there are lots of tuning tips out there because they are so popular with CAS.

 

[Crowman]

The venerable 38-55 is both superbly accurate and light kicking. Many deer and black bear have fallen to this cartridge. The current factory loads are milder than earlier factory hunting loads. Buffalo Bore loads this cartridge on the hot side. Marlin ran a batch of 336 Cowboy Rifles with 24" Ballard rifled octagon barrels (for cast bullets) a few years ago, with the thin forearms. I love the rifle, and added a tang sight to mine. It is both pleasant to shoot, and accurate. I hand load it with hard cast 240 grain flat nose bullets. Back in the day, the cartridge was popular for long range target competition and is much flatter shooting than the 45-70. You would not go wrong with this one.

 

[Jlr2267]

My choice would be 44 magnum or, if you reload, possibly 45 Colt. Either will be good medicine for deer/pigs/black bear. I am partial to 44 for some reason (maybe because I grew up watching Dirty Harry in the 70's).

 

[CraigC]

The .45-70 got more votes but the .444 is a better option. It's a better deer cartridge with less of what you don't need but more of what you do. No need for expensive boutique factory loads to get what you need velocity-wise. It will shoot flatter.

 

[BCRider]

Again with the idea that we want a softer hit to the shoulder of the OP I'd want to stay away from a couple of the options mentioned.

I've shot a buddy's Rossi 92 in .454. The hit to the shoulder was a real tooth filling shaker. Zeek, this is not something I'd recommend for your shoulder issues.

I've got a .357 Rossi 92 that I use for my cowboy shooting. On occasion I've shot some 158gn .357Mag from it. The recoil is there but it's lighter than a Win 94 in .30-30 by quite a lot.

On the other hand the Marlin model 1894 of another buddy in .44 Mag has a recoil that, not surprisingly, is in the middle between the two Rossis mentioned.

I'd be willing to bet an interwebz beer that the .454 would hurt you badly. Even with a good recoil pad. With the good pad the .44Mag would be a question mark that could only be answered by you trying such a gun and then listening to what your shoulder tells you. Chances are that with .357Mag from an 1892 clone you'd be fine even without a pad. With a pad it would turn the recoil into a kitten swat.

Perhaps and likely enough of a kitten swat that you could go with some 180gn cast or jacketed sent out at around 1500 to 1700 fps?

Otherwise I still think that a Win 94 in .38-55 would be a good way to go.

Any cartridge recoil can be toned down by going to a lighter bullet and less charge. But the advantage of the lighter bullet and charge on a smaller bore vs a bigger bore is that the BC is higher on the skinnier bullet for a given mass. So the skinnier bullet will hold its velocity better and keep more of it's energy out at 150'ish yards. That's why I'm more a fan of the sizes under .4 inch for your situation where you're trying to do a lot with a little.

 

[savanahsdad]

OP:: what type of action would you be looking for ? this may help narrow thing down , I see 45-70 is high on the pole , but other than a single shot most are heavy and not something I would want to scope and carry in the hills anywhere , my Marlin 1894 44mag has iron sights , my Ruger Deerfield 44mag has peep sights and my Ruger 44 Carbine has a 3-7X40 on it all 3 will drop a deer at 75+yards and all 3 weigh less the any of my bolt actions , so are you thinking Leaver, brake, bolt, auto, or a trap door ?


Note: the Ruger Carbine and the Ruger Deerfield both have triggers that feel much like the Ruger10/22 and almost as light


and a side Note: I can hunt with just about anything here, I use 270win's a lot and a 7mm-08 , 35rem's, 32rem, 7mmWSM, 25WSSM and a few other, and never feel under gunned with a 44mag unless the deer come out past that 100 yard mark ,