frankie_the_yankee wrote: OC'ing in crowded environments is a BAD IDEA for most people. You give up tactical surprise and you set yourself up to be ambushed by BG's seeking to grab your gun.
Novus Collectus responded: Millions of cops do it everyday.
Interesting that you should bring up OC by cops. I have actually made that comparison myself. I did so because cops represent a large population group that OC's all the time, whereas only a tiny number of non-LEO OC in urban areas. (You can prove this by going to any urban area and counting up how many cops you see OC'ing compared to how many non-LEO you see OC'ing.)
I was criticized for making this comparison on the grounds that the behavior of cops and non-cops is inherently different.
But I have also shown where cops
do get their guns snatched. If you read through this thread you will find references and links. It doesn't happen too often, but it happens.
While cops do have a duty to press forward and make the arrest, they also have several advantages. They are trained in hand-to-hand combat. Most have retention training. They are correctly percieved as hard tarets. Most have retention holsters. They have backup available on short notice. And BG's know that if you whack a cop, hundreds of other cops will make it their top priority to bring you to justice. And they won't be "gentle" about it either.
Ayoob has documented over a thousand attempted snatches of cops' guns that were thwarted by retention training and equipment. (Cops have to write reports when they experience a snatch or snatch attempt.)
BTW, according to FBI stats, there are approximately 800,000 cops in the USA.
As for CC'ers getting "made" and hence being potential "snatchees", I'm sure that
some are made. But however many are, it is certainly less than 100%, and in all likelyhood
much less. With OC, one should assume that one is "made" since no effort is made to hide the gun at all. So the exposure is certainly greater with OC,
much greater.
Novus Collectus wrote: How many criminals try to snatch officer's guns out of the blue? Not many because there is often another armed officer close by that has a gun too. In urban areas where it is likely there is more than one person open carrying, criminals are less likely to do something that will get them shot by someone with another gun.
1) Cops are trained to back each other up. Armed citizens are not. And you can't assume that an armed citizen would make a quick judgement to shoot or try to stop/detain a BG who snatched another armed citizen's gun and was running away. I know for my own part, if he was running away I would let him. (The threat to me doesn't meet the criteria of being "imminent", one of the necessities for the lawful use of deadly force.) Just recognizing what was going on to the point where one was sure enough to take a shot is highly problematic. And how do you know that a DA won't decide that it was an improper use of deadly force (by a non-LEO)?
What do you think would happen in MD to someone who shot someone who snatched another's gun
and was running away?
2) Show me an urban area where more than one person is likely to be present that is OC'ing. I've been around the block a few times and I've only seen 2 people OC'ing in my life (except for cops). One was in Phoenix and one was in Brattleboro, VT.
Though I will admit that if someone is
part of a group that is OC'ing, OC certainly is a huge deterrent to any BG.
longwatch wrote: I think the school of thought that CCW snatches would be less likely than OC ones would be valid if all carriers could conceal perfectly. That argument breaks down when human error is factored in. A clue to the feasibility of a concealed carry snatch could be answered by the question, 'how many concealed carriers have you made?'
You can assume that 100% of OC'ers are "made", since the gun is not concealed. Likewise, we can assume that
less than 100% of CC'ers are made, since they have at least made an attempt to conceal their guns. Some of these attempts will be successful, right? So
all OC'ers are potential targets for a snatch or snatch attempt while only
some CC'ers are.
Obviously it follows that more OC'ers will be at risk of a snatch.