Powders for 9mm Luger - utterly bizzare

[Howa 9700]

Seeds for this thought planted a year or so back when I was looking for rifle powders. Was talking to the guys that run Full Circle Reloading in St. Charles, MO. They were short of all types of powder and had grown frustrated with people calling for powders they didn't have. In particular, pistol guys were looking for the "Dots". Full Circle were not frustrated with guys calling, they were frustrated they didn't have anything for them when they did.

At time, I didn't realize how much crossover there is between shotgun and pistol powders. When I pulled out my old stash of shotgun supplies, I had Red Dot, Green Dot, 700X, IMR 4756, IMR 7625 and Herco. All of them specific to different shotgun loads, light to heavy, but was surprised to learn all could be used in loads with same case, primer and bullet in a 9mm. Just swap out the powder. Once I thought to look, my old 1970 Hercules reloading guide includes loads for 9mm using almost every powder they made.

I now have samples of Nitro 100, Competition, Clays, 700X, International, e3, Red Dot, Green Dot, Longshot, HS-6, IMR 4756 and 7625 and Herco, each of which has very specific uses in 12 gauge, but find it bizarre that there is load data for all of those in 9mm. Could add Blue Dot, 800X, Promo, American Select, IMR red and blue, Unique, Titegroup, Titewad, some of the specialty powders for 28 gauge and 410 loads and many more, and that is before you start adding the so called pistol powders, of which there must be a couple dozen.

The 9mm Luger has to be one of the most versatile rounds there is for reloaders to work with. If you have the cases and can find the primers and bullets, lots of powders will make it go BANG!

 

[jmorris]

You could pick rounds that have more case volume and they have even greater versatility, as they can utilize powders that are slow enough their volume would overflow a 9mm case.

 

[higgite]

..... I now have samples of Nitro 100, Competition, Clays, 700X, International, e3, Red Dot, Green Dot, Longshot, HS-6, IMR 4756 and 7625 and Herco.........

Not to sidetrack things, but where did you get samples of all those powders? I haven’t seen any quantities less than a pound available. Or is that what you’re calling a sample?

 

[Jim Watson]

In a Previous Political Panic shortage, a friend ran out of his usual powder. "Oh, what can I DO?" I went through those same references and listed 26 powders with published 9mm loads. We hit the stores and found two. He bought one and was back in action.

Considering .38 and .357 as one caliber, you can do the same thing for a revolver.
Or most anything, really. Ed Harris came up with The Load of 13 grains of Red Dot to get the use out of powder on hand in light practice loads for service rifles.

When I was shooting a lot of Trap, I loaded most of my 12 ga with 700X. It is a good burn rate for handguns and was the first powder advertised for clean burning. Its only fault is large flake size that does not meter well in small charges. I used it up with a vibrator on the Dillon measure to shake powder uniformly into the bar.

My neighbor preferred 452AA. After he passed away, I bought most of a keg from his estate and shot it in .45 ACP.
I once got most of a caddy of Green Dot from a guy who was dropping shot shell reloading. It is a fine 9mm powder.

 

[Howa 9700]

Not to sidetrack things, but where did you get samples of all those powders? I haven’t seen any quantities less than a pound available. Or is that what you’re calling a sample?

Most of mine are 1 pound samples, but in past 12 months, have seen many 8 pounders for many of those. The 4756 and 7625 are remnants in the stash......now probably 50 years old.

But in the aggregate, if all those work, I can load thousands and thousands of rounds. I had no idea how big of a stash I was sitting on. On balance, way short on primers and bullets.

 

[PO2Hammer]

4756 and 7625 were my favorites for many years in 9 mm Luger and 38 Super. Good stuff.
After they went away I switched to Bullseye and W231 with Power Pistol reserved for the hot stuff.

 

[Howa 9700]

Not to sidetrack things, but where did you get samples of all those powders? I haven’t seen any quantities less than a pound available. Or is that what you’re calling a sample?

BTW, this was posted several times last fall, but late last summer / early fall, was in Graf's retail store and found this.....along with dozens of other powders in one pounders in those two 4' x 8' cabinets just out of view to the right.



Wasn't loading for pistols then, so left all those where they were. Might act different today. Point being, it comes and goes. You just have to be looking and ready to pounce when it shows up.

 

[Charlie98]

In reality, 'shotgun' powders cover a lot of territory, including pistol, in many cartridges, not just 9mm. Powders like Unique, 2400, and RedDot cover the whole enchilada... shotgun, pistol, AND rifle powder (granted, we're talking lower-velocity rifle, but, hey, if it works, it works...)

It's funny... my favorite pistol powder, Unique, is a shotgun powder I've never used in reloading shotgun, simply because I could never find a recipe with it to duplicate the AA Trap load... I had to go to WST for that. After giving up on loading shotshell, I found WST made a dandy .45ACP powder... and the circle of life continues.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The truly startling reality is just how many tested and proven loads you can find for powders which are supposedly “specialty products”. IMR 4198 and 4227 check a lot of boxes, from small rifle to big boomers in handguns. IMR 4227 in particular started as a rifle powder but is now thought of almost exclusively as a magnum pistol powder. Solo 1000 is another “shotgun powder” with a good reputation as a pistol powder. And then there’s the obvious: Unique, which has volumes of loading data in shotgun, rifle and pistol.

A lot of the data predating piezoelectric strain gauges has been abandoned and repudiated by the powder distributors but they are time tested and history approved. Approach with caution!

 

[n2omike]

4756 and 7625 were my favorites for many years in 9 mm Luger and 38 Super. Good stuff.
After they went away I switched to Bullseye and W231 with Power Pistol reserved for the hot stuff.

I have five cans of SR 7625. One says Dupont, the others IMR.
They are the traditional metal 1 lb cans, but only come with 8 oz (half pound) in them.
I picked them up at an old gun store for $15/each as soon as Biden got elected.

Haven't used any of it yet. Cans look brand new and are unopened.
Figured it might be a decent 9mm powder.

 

[AJC1]

The truly startling reality is just how many tested and proven loads you can find for powders which are supposedly “specialty products”. IMR 4198 and 4227 check a lot of boxes, from small rifle to big boomers in handguns. IMR 4227 in particular started as a rifle powder but is now thought of almost exclusively as a magnum pistol powder. Solo 1000 is another “shotgun powder” with a good reputation as a pistol powder. And then there’s the obvious: Unique, which has volumes of loading data in shotgun, rifle and pistol.

A lot of the data predating piezoelectric strain gauges has been abandoned and repudiated by the powder distributors but they are time tested and history approved. Approach with caution!

I like 4227 better in cast rifle than mag pistol and I've really tested it to find good loads. I don't know if it's case shape or pressure or both. I never went slower than true blue in 9mm, don't know the drop-off point. Probably go slower with a heavier bullet than the 115 I always used.

 

[n2omike]

I like 4227 better in cast rifle than mag pistol and I've really tested it to find good loads. I don't know if it's case shape or pressure or both. I never went slower than true blue in 9mm, don't know the drop-off point. Probably go slower with a heavier bullet than the 115 I always used.

Slight diversion, but I've found 4227 to be the best, most consistent powder for 220 grain 300 BO. Far better than H110. H110 needs to be loaded to Supersonic velocity to give consistent velocities.

As per 9mm... Very forgiving overall. I've used H110 successfully for full power loads and HP38/W231 for others.
Pet load is 3.8 grains of HP38/W231 under a RMR 147 grain round nose FMJ at 1.14 COAL. Works great in my pistol, and is still subsonic in my 10.5" AR9. Fun, affordable shooting.

 

[n2omike]

Okay, will give a little more detail. Was asked about pressures with the 3.8 grain HP38 behind the 147 grain FMJ.

I've loaded/fired a couple thousand rounds... and haven't seen any pressure signs. Some casings have been reloaded a few times. No issues. Pistol is a Canik METE SFX. European guns generally come with fairly stiff recoil springs well suited for hotter loads. I doubt the AR9 is even getting winded. 9mm AR's operate as blowback. No gas. Many use the AR10 buffer spring for a .308. Some makers just throw in a generic 5.56 spring (my PSA came with the lighter 5.56 spring) Even with lighter loads, the 5.56 buffer was bottoming out. AR10 spring made it run a lot smoother. Still feeds everything just fine. Highly recommended upgrade.

Buffer Spring from JP Enterprises.
JPS-OSC.308 TUNED AND POLISHED BUFFER SPRING, .308 CARBINE $22.95

As per 4227, it was a lot more accurate and had far more consistent velocities than H110 in 300BO at Subsonic velocities. I was at 10.5 grains behind a Berrys plated bullet. Around 1100 fps. Pistol length gas system with a 10.5" barrel.

 

[theotherwaldo]

In the last two years I have bought box lots of reloading supplies and tools from folks that have just given up because of one thing or another.
Some had lost their jobs, others had to move to smaller homes or other regions, a few had given up on finding primers or other critical supplies.
I wound up with enough various powders to keep me reloading for quite a while - as long as I am not dedicated to only use the "perfect" powder for each cartridge.
-And lots of reloading tools, books, brass and other stuff to sell... .

 

[rfwobbly]

You'd almost need to be a pro shooter to work through a full 8 lb jug of powder using a handgun. I have jugs of W231, 7625 and Red Dot I've been hitting on since 2001 and they're not about to be gone. (I remember paying $100 for that jug of W231 and thinking it was really expensive !)

One hint. In the middle of the Obama drought I spilled my jug of W231 trying to fill the powder measure. (That photo is listed under "How to make a grown man cry.") Now I use the 8 lb jug to fill a 1 lb can, and then use the smaller container to fill and empty the hopper. That works out much better.

 

[Howa 9700]

In the last two years I have bought box lots of reloading supplies and tools from folks that have just given up because of one thing or another.
Some had lost their jobs, others had to move to smaller homes or other regions, a few had given up on finding primers or other critical supplies.
I wound up with enough various powders to keep me reloading for quite a while - as long as I am not dedicated to only use the "perfect" powder for each cartridge.
-And lots of reloading tools, books, brass and other stuff to sell... .

Turns out I'm in the same boat. About a year ago, ran across a guy wanting to sell his deceased father's shotgun setup. I was interested in the Mec Grabber, all those bags of shot and several thousand once fired Win AAcf and Fed paper hulls. Then when I got it home and started going thru the boxes, found the better part of a full can of 700X, plus these:



That is some Unique, Win 540 (which internet seems to think is same as HS-6) and what looks to be an unopened can of Alcan #7. Apparently all of it (including the 700X) can be used in 9mm loads. With enough modern stuff to last me, this will likely never be used by me, but will be kept in case we ever get to that SHTF condition and anything that burns is valuable.

The 9mm stash just keeps growing.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I like WSF in 124 grain 9mm loads but started to run low during the Sandy Hook panic. A neighbor had given me 4 pounds of Red Dot a couple years earlier and I put it to good use.

Velocity was down a little but the ammo still cleaned the plate rack just as well as my WSF loads.

 

[Jim Watson]

You'd almost need to be a pro shooter to work through a full 8 lb jug of powder using a handgun.

Lessee, now; 9mm 147 subsonic and .45 200 midrange take about 3.5 gr Bullseye, so 2000 rounds per pound, 16000 per keg.
I am not as active as I was, but not too long ago I was shooting neighborhood of 800 a month in matches, plus practice.
So a year and a half supply.

 

[lordpaxman]

You'd almost need to be a pro shooter to work through a full 8 lb jug of powder using a handgun.

Many Many Many Thanks!!!! Although my scores don’t quite reflect that…

I’d add, either a pro, or, a couple of sons: “hey Dad, ya got any more _________”.

As for the OP, in the quest to find the one powder to rule them all, my spreadsheet for 9mm is close to 700 rows with the various combinations of bullets, weights, powders, primers, COLs and others. I’m waiting for Win to add pistol data to their new shotgun powders. I should be able to get to 1000 rows…

 

[AJC1]

Turns out I'm in the same boat. About a year ago, ran across a guy wanting to sell his deceased father's shotgun setup. I was interested in the Mec Grabber, all those bags of shot and several thousand once fired Win AAcf and Fed paper hulls. Then when I got it home and started going thru the boxes, found the better part of a full can of 700X, plus these:

View attachment 1163349

That is some Unique, Win 540 (which internet seems to think is same as HS-6) and what looks to be an unopened can of Alcan #7. Apparently all of it (including the 700X) can be used in 9mm loads. With enough modern stuff to last me, this will likely never be used by me, but will be kept in case we ever get to that SHTF condition and anything that burns is valuable.

The 9mm stash just keeps growing.

Getting to use the powder adds value, and gets the old stock off the shelf.... I can sell or trade new powder. In the intended use senerio I'd want the biggest can of a single powder I could get, so once I got the powder drop set I'd be good till it's gone...I don't have a scale that doesn't use power so I need to fix that....

 

[Howa 9700]

As someone who started out reloading shotshells and later rifles, both of those seem to have very specific uses for the various powders. You don't stray far from a narrow range on the burn chart. There is some crossover between Red Dot and Green Dot, but not much crossover between Red Dot or Titewad and Herco. Yet all of those can be dropped into a 9mm case under same bullet and they go BANG and work all day long.

Compared to everything else in the reloading world, just find that a strange concept to wrap my head around.

 

[mstreddy]

Another shotgun powder that works great in handguns, including 9MM, is Promo. I'm in my second 8# jug of it.

 

[Jim Watson]

Shotshell loading is recipe driven, I don't stray from the book combination of powder, primer, wad, shot, and hull.
Pressures are low relative to bulleted rounds but you need full charges to get the velocity and pattern.
I have had uses for rifle bullets at anything from 1100 to 3500 fps, but I want that shot load at 1150 fps so my lead on a clay pigeon is consistent.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I think mostly the manufacturers decided they could sell more powder if they labeled powder for a specific purpose. It works that way with a lot of marketing schemes. If you can convince someone that this particular powder works better because it's specifically designed for pistols then the consumer will want that one.

If I buy 8 lbs. of American Select to reload shotguns shells I'm not likely going to buy a pound of Power Pistol for my 9x19 if I know AS works just as well. Which it does.

It wasn't until the shortage around 2007 that most of us loaders caught on to the versatility of shotgun powder. That's when I found out by experimenting with a shotgun powder for 45 ACP loads. There just wasn't any published load data out there. The load that I worked up matches what's been published since.

All of this has caused some powders to practically cease to exist. Those powders are still listed on the websites but haven't been available for a very long time.

 

[Jim Watson]

There was a gunsmith who said "Don't load target pistol ammo with shotshell powder, it is gritty and will wear the barrel faster than real pistol powder." Sounds pretty hokey to me.

Cease to exist? I don't know why DuPont discontinued No 5, No 6, and P5066. Good powders but maybe they could not compete well with Bullseye and Unique.