Pump Shotguns - home defense

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Texan

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2004
Messages
29
Location
The GREAT State of TEXAS
I'm pretty new to this forum but have been visiting since back in '04. Just kinda hanging around watching and listening. Have learned quite a bit. Am a Life Time member of NRA and even joined the TSRA as a result of this site.

I gave an opinion on something tonight and one of the old members felt it appropriate to jump in the middle of me about something I said. He basically challenged me about my Hollywood comments about the 'racking of a shell" the SOUND of a pump shotgun being a deterrent to home defense.

One thing I've remembered all my life was a comment made by Papa, a well known bounty-hunter. He once made a comment about the getting behind 100 men, women and children and all of 'em know what he did. I furthered this by saying I wouldn't want to be some place I wasn't suppose to be and hearing that sound.

I based my comments on couple years wading around in rice patties in the '60s, 8 years of law enforcement and 63 years of common experiences.

Plus:

Maritime Security " The visual psychological factor of a full size shotgun and the audible psychological factor of the distinct sound made when "racking" a shell in offers a powerful deterrent. There are numerous cases where vessel operators were prepared to engage attackers yet the attackers fled when they saw or "heard" the shotgun."

Wikipedia"It is popularly believed that the distinctive sound of a pump action being cycled carries an inherent deterrent effect".

Times Union"According to studies of career criminal the sound of a pump shot gun being cycled is universally recognized and feared. The sound alone may drive a bad guy from your home."

I've got maybe 15-20 other examples but thought these are enough but will post them if he feels necessary.

o~\o
 
Texan,

I haven't read the thread you reference, but I can say this........First, I personally agree with you. The sound of a pump shotgun is universal, and in my opinion it has a definite deterent effect.

However, one must never rely on sound effects and the fear of an unknown intruder to resolve a confrontation. Rather, one must be prepared to stop an attack by force if necessary. To do this, the shotgun must already have a round chambered.

If the intruder hears you chambering a round in the next room, and decides to run rather than fight, all the better, but one should not count on the intimidation factor of the sound rather than the resolve to use the weapon.
 
The only thing the sound of a pump will do is give away where you are. And heaven forbid someone see you first before the shotgun is racked.
 
In addition to what WayaX said, you also reduce the capacity of the shotgun by 1 by keeping it with the chamber empty.


In my estimation, a firearm kept for self defense should be loaded +1 and be ready to go use with the least amount of effort.

I wouldn't rely on the pumping sound to save me ... the loud boom is even more effective :D
 
Zundfolge,

I keep both Winchester and Mossberg shotguns at hand, in cruiser ready mode.

I choose cruiser ready mode (chamber empty, full magazine, safety off) because it allows the different brands of shotgun to be chambered and then fired in exactly the same manner, using gross motor movements up to the time of trigger pull.

At least that's my way of thinking. I solve the reduced capacity problem with another shotgun. It might not be right for everyone, but it works for me.
 
You know guys I couldn't agree more...my 1300 Defender has a round chambered right now and beside my bed...

I just made the statement because when it comes down to it a lot of people would not pull the trigger if given the chance. Home/self defense courses teach if you don't feel comfortable about shooting somebody use the "sound" first, then the trigger. Now I'm not talking about an experienced shooter here...

WoW....I feel I need body armor in here tonight.

o~\o
 
Texan, I don't know any reputable "Home/self defense courses" that will "teach if you don't feel comfortable about shooting somebody use the 'sound' first, then the trigger." All the reputable courses that I know teach people never to introduce a firearm into a situation unless there's no other way to defend against the likelihood of death or great bodily harm.

I can't imagine feeling "comfortable about shooting someone" even in such a dire situation. I also wouldn't like to teach anyone to use a deadly weapon to frighten anyone. If the idea is to alert an intruder that there are occupants in the house, turn on a radio or the lights. Or if there's some magical power in the sound of a racked shotgun, download this recording and play it back loudly when the door is kicked in and the home invasion starts: http://www.vionline.com/snd/shotgun.wav. Anyone who puts his faith in the sound of a racked shotgun can use that recording and doesn't need to own a shotgun.

What troubles me about a suggestion that the sound of a shotgun being racked will repel potential murderers is that people--especially those who are doubtful about what they're doing--might take the suggestion seriously. So they might rack that shotgun, expect the murderer to leave, and can't act if it doesn't happen, because they're uncomfortable with the need to defend their lives or those of people they have a duty to defend.

Don't mistake me. I am not in favor of killing anyone. If it's at all possible to prevent a home invasion or expel the invaders without any loss of life that's what I want. But I think that there are much better ways to try without brandishing a deadly weapon one can't use, won't use, or isn't absolutely and completely justified in using. Of course if the home invaders turn tail and run, that's the best possible outcome in my belief system. It's nothing on which to bet one's life though.

There's another very serious problem with advising anyone to expect that the sound of a shotgun being racked will scare away home invaders or anyone else. The very serious problem is that there's no way to predict the behavior of other people or even to know their situation.

Let me give a few examples.

First example. You can't know whether the home invader you heard has a friend in some other room you hadn't heard. So you rack the shotgun, wait for a moment to see whether the first invader leaves, and the friend shoots you from behind because you've telegraphed your presence, your position, and your firearm.

Second example. You're standing between the home invader and the only way he knows to get out of there. There might be an exit behind him but he doesn't necessarily know that. He, being a graduate of Mrs. Smith's Home Invasion University, has come armed. He knows of no way out and there's a guy who has just signalled that he has a shotgun. Now he is in fear of his life and is motivated to defend it with his own gun, but he is not kidding around.

Third example. Your home invader has heard the same story about how racking a shotgun is going to scare away intruders, or he has read that story in the Shotgun section of a gun forum or two. So he decides that you are not a serious person and he knows where to get a free shotgun.

Fourth example. Your home invader is jacked up on his favorite illegal substance and believes he is Ming the Merciless, Supreme Ruler of the Planet Mongo and Emperor of the Universe. You have just given him important information: your location, the fact that you have a shotgun, the fact that you have both hands occupied, the likelihood that you only have four rounds, and the presumption that you're fearful and have racked the shotgun to scare him away. You can't possibly predict what Ming the Merciless will do with that information. I wouldn't want to be there to find out.

By the way, I don't think it's a good idea to grab a shotgun or anything else and clear my own house.
 
I've read lots of "Don't let them know where you are" comments here on The High Road.

But let me shed some light on something.

Many of you appear to be suggesting that we should "Hunt" the bad guys. (Not just in this thread, but in many others I have read)

The Idea is to silently wait for the right shot, and then blast the burglar into hamburger before he even realizes you are there.

Kinda like sitting in a deer stand, right?

OK, fine. If you are all right with having the neighbor's kid spread all over your living room because he ran out of beer money and decided to pilfer your silver out of the kitchen, go for it.

I'm not wired that way.

I have no fantasies to chase, and no desire to kill somebody just because I can.

And I sure don't want the neighbor's kid splattered all over my living room.

If somebody is in my house, the thing I fear is that some harm will come to me or my family.

If this is the case, I will fire my weapon and make it count.

But how can I tell if it's the neighbor's kid looking for beer money or Hannibal The Cannibal looking to kill and eat my whole family?

I'm thinking I should confront the bad guy.

No, I don't think walking up and introducing my self with a handshake is a good idea.

No, I don't think asking him "Are you going to hurt me?" would work either.

How about this idea:

I'll arm myself, and THEN announce loudly that I am aware of intruders in the house. This announcement could be accompanied with the "Racking" sound if I so chose. (My shotgun is "Cruiser Ready", with a full mag, an empty chamber, and the safety off, so I might very well do that)

I will also offer some advice to the intruder concerning his options and why leaving would be a good idea.

This might serve more than one purpose.

It could give warning to the neighbor's kid that he's been found out, and should leave immediately.

It could also make any other family members in the house aware of the situation, and give them opportunity to take measures of their own... like taking cover and calling the police. It could also allow the teenage daughter to holler "Stop! It's my boyfriend!".

And finally, it could be used to separate the wheat from the chaff.

If a bad guy doesn't make tracks the instant he knows he's been found out, then I know for sure that it's not just a kid trying to score some beer money.

He's clearly dangerous. Maybe murderous dangerous. Maybe stupid dangerous. Regardless, he cannot be allowed to harm me or my family.

Now, things have stepped up a notch.

I will do whatever the situation requires of me to protect my family.

I will attempt to situate myself between the bad guy(or guys) and my family.

I will not advance, but I will not allow them to advance, either.

If the bad guy attempts to do ANYTHING aggressive, I will apply buckshot until I'm sure the threat is neutralized.

This is a tactic that has worked for me in the past.

This is a tactic that is within my morality, and one that will leave me knowing I did my best to avoid taking life unnecessarily while protecting my family to the best of my ability.

For you guys that want to hunt bad guys, when it stops being a fantasy and becomes reality I hope you can live with your choices.
 
Last edited:
Frank, I don't see any message in this thread that advocates hunting anyone down or shooting the neighbor's kid or anyone else. The message I posted certainly doesn't say any such thing.

I've tried, as clearly as I know how, to advocate just the opposite: don't try to clear your own house and don't shoot anyone--not a burglar, home invader, and most certainly not the neighbor's kid--if it's at all possible to avoid it.

Although your sermon is eloquent and its passion clear, you're preaching to the wrong congregation.
 
Are you saying that you have NEVER seen a post that advises to avoid letting the bad guys know you are there and armed?

Are you saying you have NEVER seen a 'Shoot first, ask questions later because they are in your house" post?

When these two ideas are combined, it feels like Hunting to me.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anybody.

I was merely answering a "Should I rack the shotgun" question.

(I thought I had made a good argument, too)

Feel free to ignore me if you wish.
 
I will say it right now.

I don't want anyone to know where I am. No slide racking.

If they are in my house when they know I am home (as I should be after dark) they are not there to steal my belongings. If they wanted the sack of gold that I store in the frig they would come during the day when I normally would be at work.

If they are there after dark they have come to do harm to me or the family or both. Sure, you follow the four rules, but this is not a question of a fair fight, because certainly they are not fighting fair by sneaking into your house in the middle of the night.
 
Man, this is a tired and weary subject. There is no definitive answer. There are many people who own firearms that simply do not have the mindset to use them for defensive purposes, and frankly those folks would probably be better off not using them for that.

Believe me there are those that will advance on you, and while you are racking and checking to see if it had the proper effect, they will take the weapon from you and kill you with it, or worse, beat you into submission with it so they can have fun with you.

I understand that many will find the attitude distasteful, but if someone is in my home without being granted entry by myself or someone in my family, their life is at risk, because I have to assume that mine is too.

I can't place the safety of myself or my family on a quaint urban myth type of notion that some sound might scare them away.

Each of us has to do what they must. Rack and wait if you must. My approach will be somewhat different.
 
Venice Ca, 1971 or so. I'm awakened at zero dark 30 by the sounds of someone attempting to open the window in my bathroom. There's a fire escape outside it and I'm in a small apt 20 feet off street level.

I grab my 870, open the window that's not in the bathroom, point the muzzle at the two "Socio-Economically Disadvantaged Youths" on the fire escape and racked a round. I believe I had their complete attention when I told them to leave or die. They didn't die.

Later, ca 1979 or so, I stopped an escape attempt at The MD House Of Correction by racking an 870. Inmate Bobby Miller, known as an extreme escape risk, skidded to a stop and screamed, " Don't let that M$%^*( McCracken kill me".

Despite all that, in an AS scenario now at home, the sound of the rack will be the next to last thing an intruder will hear.

Without divulging any security info best left unsaid in a public forum, if I need to use a shotgun it's a last chance defensive move.

There's handguns posted through Caca McC, for use by all adults here and we're all adults. We're not all shotgunners. The shotguns are located where they are for reasons I prefer not to share.

And, while I can ready said 870s in an instant, they're kept mag loaded down one, chamber empty, action locked closed and safety on. IOW, very hard for dufi or those ignorant to make fire.

And for an intruder to reach a point where making them assume ambient temperature is desireable, they have to penetrate more defensive measures than usual. Keeping them out is better than being able to repel them once inside.
 
Fast Frank:

Are you saying that you have NEVER seen a post that advises to avoid letting the bad guys know you are there and armed?

Are you saying you have NEVER seen a 'Shoot first, ask questions later because they are in your house" post?

When these two ideas are combined, it feels like Hunting to me.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anybody.

I was merely answering a "Should I rack the shotgun" question.

(I thought I had made a good argument, too)

Feel free to ignore me if you wish.
Click to expand...

Yup, Frank, I've seen all kinds of posts before including some advocating those approaches. They seem contradictory to me so it's interesting to see you combine them as if they're the same.

The idea behind advising people uncomfortable with shooting to rack the shotgun in the original post was for the purpose of scaring away intruders. That's what the rest of us were talking about. Scaring intruders away would seem to be counterproductive for anyone who wanted to hunt them down or shoot the neighbor kid.

I don't see that anyone in this thread advocated hunting down intruders or that arguments against the sound effect as a tactic could be taken to mean any such thing. But of course it's likely that I just don't feel the same way you do.

You did make an excellent argument. It was just odd to see it in this thread instead of in one that talked for what you argued against. Perhaps I'm easily confused. I didn't intend to hurt your feelings and if I've done so I would apologize.

Dave's point that "Keeping them out is better than being able to repel them once inside" is something I tried to suggest. The examples from his life experiences were tactically direct and went in a different direction from advice to rack the slide and let intruders figure out that they need to leave.
 
Not add fuel to the fire or drift to the thread, but........ what I find "scary" about the whole rack the slide thing is the distinct "THUNK" of the round as it leaves the magazine on the way to the chamber. No hollow "THUNK" no buckshot.
 
People love to say the tacticool response to situations. Like always keeping it loaded safety off & ready to shoot anyone.

Thing is 99.9999% of the time you never have to use your gun.

And the times you do 99% of the time it would be against someone that most likely knows MUCH less about guns than you do. Just by being on this board you probably know more gun information than the average person out there.

Hell if you can identify most guns by looking at them and know the caliber and manufacturers on sight you're better than the average public by a WIDE swath.

If a criminal knows you have a dog they are much less likely to break in just because of the barking. Does that mean it will stop all criminals, no but it is nice to have a dog to warn you.

The whole bit about racking a shotgun and it scares criminals is a generalization. Like fire extinguishers can put out fires, doesn't mean that since it won't put out any fire at your home you should only keep a halon sprinkler system in your house with a pump truck nearby to stop any possible fires from happening.

There is this crazy mentality in gun culture that you have to have the biggest baddest set up for the 1% of 1% of 1% of situations. And that if you aren't ready for that you're screwed. That is plain false. Same mentality that anything under a .308 rifle round is for killing poodles and any handgun caliber not starting with 4 isn't worth a damn. Plenty of people die to .38s and 9mm but you listen to gun culture people and every assailant is an ex military pcp crack fiend high on drugs that can shrug off 9mms and .38s as if they were from a super soaker and will not stop until you're dead or raped or both.

Its like saying you should only have 4 wheel drive cars in case the roads can't be used for some reason.

You should have a pair of shock paddles in your house in case someone keels over dead and you have to shock them back to life!! Those precious seconds you don't want to have to resort to plain old CPR!

You should have fire walls in every door and wall of your house just in case a fire happens it only takes out one room instead of the whole place. If you don't you're asking for a fire to destroy everything.

Everyone should have racing and defensive driving instructions in case they are attacked on the highway precious seconds to react and by not doing so they are really asking for it by not having all that driving skill they should!

Think of the precious seconds!

It is just ridiculous. The racking of any gun is enough to make the MAJORITY of people stupid enough to break into an occupied house think twice about what they are doing. Which is the whole point behind that time worn saying.
 
You should have a pair of shock paddles in your house in case someone keels over dead and you have to shock them back to life!! Those precious seconds you don't want to have to resort to plain old CPR!
Click to expand...

Strange you should mention that now that AEDs are showing up everywhere. The Red Cross basic CPR course now includes AED.
 
This discussion pops a lot on this forum and others. In my own situation I keep a pump gun magazine loaded, chamber empty, safety off, with the hammer down. As has been stated, this leaves only the gross motor action of racking the slide to prepare the weapon to fire. That's my choice as I don't wish to leave a round in the chamber for reasons of safety - my choice. The other day I went to set the shotgun against a wall and somehow it slipped, I grabbed, missed, it clattered against the wall and fell on the floor. It did not and could not go off. I hate being a bonehead but sometimes I am. My home is not large as I have lived alone for a number of years and my location is not a big issue. If someone has broken into my home in the middle of the night, both of us are in a very dangerous situation, no getting around that. Someone or both is about to have a very bad day. Racking the slide is for the purpose of preparing the weapon to fire, not for any deterrent effect. The sound is incidental to the purpose. If it frightens someone away, that's great but not the purpose of racking the slide. Frankly, in my area it is hard to conceive of anyone being willing to risk death or maiming to acquire my possessions but it's possible, I guess.
 
Well hell, REOIV, using your logic we should just lock up our guns or turn them in as we're not all that likely to need them. For that matter, most of us aren't going to die in a traffic accident so lets forget the seatbelts as well.

The prudent measure is to be prepared for the .0001%, but don't let that outside possibility rule our lives.


I still contend that relying on the sound of racking a shotgun to be enough of a deterrent is bad tactics (thats not to say that bad tactics don't ever work :p ).

If there's someone in my house at 0-dark-30 when they're not supposed to be, my plan is to hunker down in the bedroom with a weapon and wait ... if they leave on their own than fine, the cops get to deal with them later. However if they come in to the bedroom they die. Period. But I'm not going to announce my presence, I'm not going to yell at them, and I'm not going to try to scare them away with foley work, I'm going to wait them out and resort to lethal force only as a last resort (keep in mind that this tactic is within the law where I live ... YMMV).

The only two sounds a home defense shotgun should make are the soft click of a safety being flipped off and the loud boom.


Side note: I don't really have a dog in this fight as the only shotgun in my house is my wife's Winchester 1200 16ga bird/clay gun, and its unloaded and cased in the closet ... my HD weapon is my CCW weapon on my side of the bead and another .40 handgun on the wife's side. Also note there aren't/won't be any munchkins in our house, so all self defense guns are loaded and chambered at all times ... if you got little ones you should probably consider something easier to secure than a shottie.
 
This really isn't that complicated.

Firearms have both a deterrent and corrective roll in self defense.

The deterrent roll is filled in several ways... the knowledge that a large percentage of homeowners own guns serves as a general deterrent (identical to the knowledge that there are prisons and people to put you in prison deters crime in general). Visual and aural verification that an individual victim is armed provides a more localized deterrent effect. You, seeing that someone has a shotgun, or hearing an action work, realize that there are specific dangers involved in continuing to engage with the victim.

Those deterrent effects are fundemental to why gun ownership is important. They are also fundemental to many of our pro-gun and pro-ccw arguments. If we dismiss the deterrent effects we are in essence saying that more guns means more shootouts and more dead people and that starts sounding like the nightmare scenarios of the antis.

The deterrent effects are crucial and powerful. It is argued that well over 95% of specific defensive firearms uses are in a deterrent capacity and that's not counting the general deterrent effect. It would not be out of line to assert that 99% of defensive firearms uses are as deterrents.

However, it's important to remember that a particular attacker may not be deterred. You may be dealing with a determined attacker (e.g., a jilted lover) or the deterrent effects may be cancelled by the attacker's perceptions (e.g., "nobody owns guns in this area", or, "She's just a girl and girls won't actually pull the trigger."), or the attacker may find themselves in a no-retreat situation and think their only escape is to successfully finish the attack.

As such you should USE any deterrent effects you can but you must not count on them to actually protect you. Racking the slide on a 1911, pumping a shotgun, etc. are well known cues with recognizable deterrent effects. Use them when apropriate. Don't count on them. Simple.

I'm sure someone will prove me wrong but I don't see much room for argument there.
 
The racking of any gun is enough to make the MAJORITY of people stupid enough to break into an occupied house think twice about what they are doing. Which is the whole point behind that time worn saying.
Click to expand...

Racking the slide on a 1911, pumping a shotgun, etc. are well known cues with recognizable deterrent effects.
Click to expand...

I cannot believe so many people continue to talk about this in a serious manner. Show some documented break ins where the sound of a shotgun slide being moved ended the break in. I read all the time how this is a "well known deterrent" but not once have I seen it proven.

It's only a "well known deterrent" in the movies.

Life isn't a movie. This Hollywood idea that the SOUND of a shotgun being loaded is part of real life self defense has to be one of the silliest things ever posted on gun boards.

Certainly there is a deterrent role for firearms, it generally involves POINTING one at someone and telling them that if they don't stop whatever it is they are doing bad things will happen.

We as gunnies love the sound of the pump shotgun, it evokes all kinds of feelings of power and reminds us of great movie scenes.

Tell me what you think this sound will evoke to the average crackhead breaking into your house at 2am?
Will he even recognize it?
 
Gary A has it right:

Racking the slide is for the purpose of preparing the weapon to fire, not for any deterrent effect. The sound is incidental to the purpose. If it frightens someone away, that's great but not the purpose of racking the slide.
Click to expand...

Since my shotguns are maintained "cruiser ready" in the house, I gotta rack the slide if I want fire the weapon. Simple as that.
 
TR... you have a sound (heh) basic point but you take it too far. Knowledge, sounds, sights, and other forms of awareness (e.g., touch/contact) all play a roll in deterring aggressive action by would-be criminals.

Many people overstate the effect. They act as though the sound alone will cause people to wet their pants and run away. That is clearly not to be counted on. Others understate the effect. They act as though criminals are deaf and/or blind. Both extremes are incorrect.

You can choose whether you want to use the sound of a deadly weapon as a primary deterrent. It's not ideal. Dogs are better. Alarm systems are better. Automatic lights are good too. Dogs, alarm systems, and automatic lights together form an excellent set of deterrents. If you have all of that you may choose to skip the deterrent use of a shotgun and go straight to the, "They's knew they's shouldn'a been here so I stopped 'em with my double-ought." In that case you are giving up a layer of security because other layers are more effective. Fair trade, probably. Other people, because they have thinner security in general, can and should use every tool at their disposal.

As for studies... don't know, doesn't matter. I can't say much about pump shotguns but I've seen people of criminal intent respond to the sound of a pistol slide being racked.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
  • Locked
What about folks using break open guns for defense ?
Replies
24
Views
889
Jack2427
J
M
  • Locked
Shotgun for Home Defense. Pump vs. Auto - your opinion.
2 3 4
Replies
93
Views
9K
DHart
D
andrewdl007
  • Locked
Shotgun for trap/home defense
2
Replies
45
Views
2K
Jack Ryan
Jack Ryan
T
  • Locked
Pardner Pump for home defense.
2 3 4
Replies
81
Views
5K
jmortimer
J
J
  • Locked
Home Defense Shotgun
Replies
21
Views
2K
MADDOG
M
Back
Top