Pump Shotguns - home defense

[phoglund]

Interesting discussion. I thought it instructive to ask myself the following question:
"If I were breaking into a home to steal what I could and heard the sound of a shotgun slide racking a shell into the chamber...what would I do?"

My answer:
"Find another home to steal from and proceed out the way I came in with all alacrity."

Granted, I'm not of a criminal bent of mind and so cannot with surety step into the mind of the criminal, but I think it does seem to indicate the possibility a lawless individual might react the same. The posters who state that you cannot rely on the distinctive sound in question to deter the intruder have an excellent point. Some will most certainly be foolish enough to proceed and risk the obvious penalty. But some I think will indeed be deterred. Racking the slide is kind of like the old "Gadsden" of the Revolution. The one with the rattlesnake in the middle and the words, "Don't Tread on Me" below it. Personally, I would not recommend the tactic, but neither would I strongly advise against it.

 

[Titan6]

I mention hunting intruders by lying in wait in the dark with a gun to you saying standing in plain sight with a shotgun.

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say.... Are you saying you should not shoot an intruder in your home after dark out of hand? But instead warn them you are there and give them a chance to surrender?

Seems crazy to me. But hey, to each his own.

The same as this one.

You don't give up your position by racking your slide, because you didn't want to give up your "tactical" advantage, the bad guy comes into your room, and then you blow him away before he even knows where you are there. In this case, you didn't give up your tactical advantage, but you probably pissed away your "legal" advantage and your 401k.

The police come to your home and investigate the scene and question you about the shooting. After you "impress" them with your knowledge of combat tactics, they immediately recognize that you probably used excessive force to defend your property, instead of your life.

You have the right to defend your life, but in most states, you do *NOT* have a right to defend your property. You would have to justify your actions in court and convince the jury that your life was in danger. That is a problem because of the "video game" mentality that led to the shooting in the first place. In this case, you go to jail, but not only that, you get sued by the bad guy's family because the guy didn't even have a weapon. Really smart. You would have just committed a far more heinous crime than the drug addict that was just shot.

Fishman... your argument is reasonable but it flat doesn't work with people who include "Texas" in their user name.

Well, that one is easy. In Texas all of that is perfectly legal as described. The chance of the bad guy's family (if any cared enough) winning a case in a civil trial is also very tiny. Same everywhere else I have ever lived (at least when I lived there) except for Germany. Strange how the laws and attiudes vary from state to state like that.

 

[Ed Ames]

Should you shoot an intruder out of hand? No, absolutely not. You should stop the crime using the lowest level of force possible and no more than the highest level of force justifiable.

What does minimum force mean? As a general rule it means you should start by telling the intruder to depart. That doesn't mean threatening them, it means asserting your rights to the property. "Leave now!" is good. "Leave or I'll shoot!" is not so good. "I'll shoot you!" is all wrong. From there you may need to resort to using force as required.

What does the no more than the highest level of justifiable force mean? Well, if you are in Texas, and it's daylight, and the person is stealing or vandalizing your property, it means you can hit them in the head with your fists but you cannot shoot them in the arm with your shotgun. If it is night, or they are raping someone, or attacking you, lethal force becomes justified. In another state the dividing line is based entirely on the type of crime. In California for example you may use lethal force to defend yourself or others against crimes of violence (rape, murder, muggings) but not against property crimes (vandalism, petty theft). In another state the use of lethal force may only be justified to protect yourself (not a third party) against an immediate physical threat. It just depends on where you are.

And yeah, Titan6, I know it's easy... that's why I said it. I don't know where you have lived but I'll assure you that in much of the USA things are not so cavalier as they are here in Texas.

 

[Threecard]

I posted the below in a similar thread some time back and still stand by it. I've used different fonts to delineate between what I wrote (in black) and one responder's comment (BTW, I wholheartedly agree that one shouldn't overestimate the effectiveness of the sound...it's just one more step up the use of force ladder, in my opinion, to be followed by others if necessarry). Of course, one answer doesn't cover every situation.
My mantra for home defense is have a weapon--and hole up.

What I mean is, if you hear the bump in the night, arm yourself, and go to your kids (assuming you have them). Take them into your room. Assuming you're convinced that someone in is the house, call 911.

They can take the TV

They can take the stereo.

If they step into your room, that's their choice.

That being said, the sound of the slide of a pump gun being racked and a loud "get the F out of my house"! can do wonders to change someone's perspective.

I'm not clearing a house to see if there are bad guys there...nor to protect my possessions. I'll hole up and protect what is important.




dont overestimate the sound of a pump racking a shell either.
it is a very intimidating sound but it also gives the bad guy a chance to know where you are

Agreed that it does give away your position. However, If I'm in my room with my family and racking the gun and giving some rather rude and loud commands don't make them leave but instead cause them to advance on me, I think it's likely they had more on their minds than just burglarizing my home from the beginning

 

[Titan6]

Should you shoot an intruder out of hand? No, absolutely not. You should stop the crime using the lowest level of force possible and no more than the highest level of force justifiable.

What does minimum force mean? As a general rule it means you should start by telling the intruder to depart. That doesn't mean threatening them, it means asserting your rights to the property. "Leave now!" is good. "Leave or I'll shoot!" is not so good. "I'll shoot you!" is all wrong. From there you may need to resort to using force as required.

Well, I wish you luck with that. You'll need it. Something I have discovered is that in a certain circumstances, the end result is always the same. Therefore you may as well be as efficent about it as possible.

 

[Ed Ames]

Thank you Titan6 but I have no belief in luck.

So... sounds like you have some experience with intruders in your house at night? Tens or hundreds? I imagine that after the first dozen or so a night you know just what's going to happen next. When dealing with high turnover like that efficiency is a factor.

Me, I don't deal with intruders very often so I can afford to give each one personal treatment. Heck, I'll even aim at them... attention to detail is my middle phrase.

Seriously, though... a verbal order is just common sense. If the person replies with "Daddy what the hell are you talking about?" you may save yourself more than enough grief to pay for the cumulative inefficiency.

 

[Gary A]

I remember way back in school studying predator/prey relationships. Nearly universally, predators go for the easier prey over the more difficult prey. Clearly there can be exceptions and this doesn't take into account human socio or psychopathic behavior. But I believe it holds true in the vast majority of cases.

 

[Ford]

I just made the statement because when it comes down to it a lot of people would not pull the trigger if given the chance.

I tell these people not to buy a firearm. If you are not prepared to use it do not brandish it. Assuming by given the chance you mean defending your life or your loved ones lives.
Much better off with a taser or pepper spray. I guess you could also get non lethal rounds for the shotgun.

 

[Ed Ames]

Myself, I generally don't believe the people who say they wouldn't shoot. Until they've been in a real situation, with their life or a family member's life on the line, how are they going to know what they'll do? I certainly don't accept a third party's assumption of what someone else would do.

 

[Caipirinha]

What I mean is, if you hear the bump in the night, arm yourself, and go to your kids (assuming you have them). Take them into your room. Assuming you're convinced that someone in is the house, call 911.

Ok, you've gathered your family in your room but you're not convinced that there's an intruder in the house. So now what do you do?

 

[Gary A]

It's interesting that concurrent with this thread is a poll asking in what condition people keep their pump gun. Of 138 people so far, 79% keep their gun in some variation of an empty chamber. So, 79% are either going to make so much noise they give their position away, or so much noise they scare the BG away. Maybe they'll do both at the same time. For sure, they will all have to rack the slide in order to use the gun.

 

[wyocarp]

If any of you break into my house, do not expect a conversation with me. If you want to talk, knock on the door or call on the phone. If you are in my house, expect that I assume we are past the talking stage and the only noise you will hear is the report of my gun when I verify your position.

I hope those of you who plan on having conversations with your house guests are well versed in the art of persuasion.

 

[junyo]

Note to self:
Cancel suprise party for wyocarp...

 

[WayaX]

Let me make some clarifications on my previous post.

Just because you don't want your location known doesn't mean you're going to go out ninja style and hunt down intruders. Drywall makes for very poor cover so any indication of your location is a bad idea unless you have your sights on the intruder and ARE ready to shoot. Get to a safe room as quickly and quietly as possible, call the police, and stay put. Keep your gun ready to fire. If anything needs to be heard before a shot is fired it should be "get out of my house, I've called the police" or "get out of my house or I'll shoot"(less advisable). You can add as many profanities as you see fit. This holds up better in court in states that don't have a castle doctrine than "I racked my shotgun to scare him away". After the point where you have made a warning, if the intruder does anything other than show you his butt as he runs away, a non-vocal "bang" is in order. If he ignores your presence, and your threat, he obviously has a pair and is willing to stick it out and presumably, do harm to you.

So once again. If you're going to keep a shotgun for home defense (or any gun), keep one in the chamber. If you're worried about the kids, keep it in the safe and a night, put the key in the safe or leave the dial on the last number (assuming the safe is in your room).

If you have kids but don't have a safe in your room, Gander Mt. has a cheap childproof safe for only $120 on sale. And it's small, I highly recommend it (it won't protect against thieves, but it will stop kids).

If you absolutely refuse to keep one in the chamber, then there is nothing I can say that will convince you otherwise. I will, however, hope that racking the pump will scare the intruder away.

 

[Gary A]

If anything needs to be heard before a shot is fired it should be "get out of my house, I've called the police" or "get out of my house or I'll shoot"

I dunno, it seems to me that if one has the time to yell "get out of my house" and is willing to make the noise that will cause, there should be enough time to rack the slide of a shotgun regardless of the noise that causes. In addition, I can't imagine interpreting the sound of racking a pump gun as saying anything other than "get out of my house".

I will, however, hope that racking the pump will scare the intruder away.

Again, racking the slide has nothing to do with scaring anyone away. (The stern "get out of my house" will probably do that.) It has everything to do with simply chambering a round. That's all. A solution might be to chamber the round while shouting "get out of my house".

Geez, if there is time to hunker down in a safe room and yell, there is plenty of time to rack a slide. And if one has to retreive the chamber-loaded shotgun from a safe, that would certainly consume much more time than merely racking a slide. This is all much ado about nothing. Keep a danged round chambered if that's your choice. If not, it's not a big deal. I don't.

 

[WayaX]

I mentioned nothing about "time". Racking a shotgun is very quick; that is undeniable. The idea of the safe is for purposes of child protection and has nothing to do with quick retrieval. The idea is to move as quickly and quietly to a safe room in the house, but a home invasion is a rare occasion. The safe will keep your kids out of danger all the time. The few seconds the safe adds are well worth your children's lives. If a child finds a shotgun with a loaded magazine and decide it's a toy, they WILL rack it. They see it on TV all the time.

Yelling at the intruder may not always be the best thing to do. If a guy comes into your house with a gun and an intent to kill you neither yelling or a racking may scare him off. Therefore having the gun immediately usable upon contact is a must, and the intruder not knowing your location is a big plus (heaven forbid that is the one time you short-stroke it because you're nervous). If the intruder is too close for you to get to your safe it's probably better off to have a pistol anyway. If it is just a bunch of dumb kids or dumber adults thinking the house empty then noise may be a better option. These are all a bunch of "If"s, but I feel the best solution for me is to keep a home defense shotgun loaded.

All that being said, the shotgun is not what I would likely go for in home defense and therefore don't have one with one in the chamber. Yeah, yeah, call me a hypocrite but I'm trying to explain things in the manner that would relate to me using a shotgun in home defense.

Assuming you use a shotgun for home defense you're going to have one shot (presumably) before your target has a chance to return fire. A shotgun also carries a greater risk of collateral damage, even if you do hit. Contrary to popular belief, a shotgun does not aim itself. It requires practice to aim just like any other type of weapon. The weapon I practice most with is a pistol and that is immediately what I would go for. Not only would I have one, but the woman also has one.

If for some chance there is a need to move around (say to get a child), the pistol offers greater mobility. Try checking windows, opening curtains, and turning off and on light switches all while keeping a shotgun ready to go. Worse yet, try holding a child and a shotgun. It can be done, but it is difficult. In times of stress people will often revert to old habits and take a hand off the gun and let it down to do something.

Thus I don't like shotguns for home defense.

 

[Titan6]

Seriously, though... a verbal order is just common sense. If the person replies with "Daddy what the hell are you talking about?" you may save yourself more than enough grief to pay for the cumulative inefficiency.

If you can't follow the four rules you shouldn't have a gun to begin with.

 

[Ed Ames]

Yes Titan6 I think that's our point.

 

[Bat22]

Whether or not a shotgun's "racking" sound is a universal deterrent or not is irrelevant IMO. That it can be a deterrent is enough for me. It's been heard more than a few times on movies and television, such that would-be thieves and gangsters should already be familiar with it. The sight of a shotgun staring you down should also do wonders. The wielder doesn't need precision aiming like with a pistol; they just need to point that barrel down your general direction.

My family's been robbed before and I damn sure didn't like the helpless and violated feeling. But I live in a good neighborhood so I've never been afraid for my life. I do wonder what I'd do if, armed with my pistol, I caught someone in my house. I wouldn't want to jeopardize my wellbeing with too much restraint but I wouldn't want to possibly kill someone over material goods, although those goods can represent time, effort, and emotion.

 

[PJR]

Not being a criminal or knowing many I don't know whether the sound of a pump shotgun deters them or not. What I do know however is that more than once the sound of a racking shotgun was very reassuring to me.

My PC shotgun isn't kept with a loaded chamber. So racking is required if I intend to fire. If it scares the bad guys that's a welcome bonus for both of us. If not then we'll see what comes next.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Ok, you've gathered your family in your room but you're not convinced that there's an intruder in the house. So now what do you do?

Good question. Perhaps you could ask someone in the room why you're all gathered there. It could be someone's birthday, or maybe a songfest, or something like that. If, however, it's you who gathered your family in the room maybe you ought to know why you did it, unless you forgot why. I don't think I'd forget why I gathered my family in my room, but I suppose anything is possible, and I don't think I'd gather everyone there unless I was convinced there was reason to do so.

But I've spent quality time in my house and I'm pretty darned sure I could distinguish between the sounds of someone accidently breaking a plate and someone kicking down a door or breaking a window. I bet I could even tell the difference between my wife saying "I just dropped a plate" and an unrecognized set of voices screaming obscenities. I spent years studying such things and I've become fairly good at it. Maybe you should give it a try.

In the end neither Remington nor Mossberg make a mechanical substitute for ordinary good sense. Benelli might, but the manual would be in so many languages that if you could follow it you wouldn't need it.

 

[inkhead]

I'll mention this, but probably won't completely answer the question. The firm I consult with for research did a study of about 400 people from diverse backgrounds, in this test situation, clinical style, designed to simulate actual events. The study happened before I started, but the results were pretty stunning in favor of sound being one of the primary fear senses. No don't ask, I can't get you a copy.

The one thing that was taken away is that only a VERY few people, would be willing to continue on when told to stop. Even "suicidal" or ready to die for a cause people would stop. The only people who seemed determined to get shot were people who had decided only a FEW minutes in advance that this "was their last stand". The sound woke up some people who were fine with to ending their lives, that sound changed things though.

Also if you're holding the weapon baring down on somebody who doesn't have a firearm in their hand to do a search, your domination of the situation often serves as a big deterrent even to somebody who 10 seconds ago wanted to kill you.

It's different in high stress combat, especially for all out no flinch battle, you don't use discrimination as much. I've never heard of a civilian shooting where the person didn't take even 1/100 of a second pause before shooting somebody. It's just built in until you've been in combat for a while I think.

Anyway, bottom line affect every sense you can. The goal is to not kill anyone, that's the best goal. So nothing is answered. Don't throw out sound.

Think about swat kicking in your door yelling, vs. swat knocking asking you to open the door and searching.

 

[Caipirinha]

But I've spent quality time in my house and I'm pretty darned sure I could distinguish between the sounds of someone accidently breaking a plate and someone kicking down a door or breaking a window. I bet I could even tell the difference between my wife saying "I just dropped a plate" and an unrecognized set of voices screaming obscenities. I spent years studying such things and I've become fairly good at it. Maybe you should give it a try.

LOL, it took you years of study to tell that you've got an intruder if someone is kicking down your door, breaking your windows, or screaming obscenities?

 

[ElToro]

personally under adrenaline i have a tendency to short stroke my pumps. im fine at the regular range shootnig paper, it has never happened. the few times ive taken my 870 bird hunting or skeet shooting, especilly on doubles. i short stroke and F it all up. my friends tell me to slam that slide back for positive ejection but about 1/2 the time i get excited i will miss the bird. thats just me... YMMV

thats why i go with my old cut down A-5.

 

[Ed Ames]

What I find interesting is that kicking down your door, breaking your windows, and/or screaming obscenities is what it takes to be categorized as an intruder.

To me, that's an attacker... and frankly I haven't pissed anyone off enough (recently) to go into attack mode like that so I figure if I have an attacker they've probably got the wrong address. All I've got to do is explain their error to them or avoid harm long enough for them to realize their mistake and the problem goes away. I still want a weapon in case they don't quite figure things out in time but the main goal is education.

The intruders I'm likely to have trouble with are the quiet ones... the guys and gals who come in the night to steal. They don't want a confrontation, they want stuff. Confrontations are just part of getting stuff. They won't be busting down the door or screaming obscenities. They may break things of course but that's incidental.