Pump Shotguns - home defense

[Gary A]

Again, it doesn't matter what the sound evokes in anyone. The weapon either has a loaded chamber or it does not. If it does not, the slide is racked to chamber a round. That is the purpose of racking a slide and no other. Any real or imagined or hoped-for deterrence is simply a by-product, ancillary to the issue at hand which is to prepare the weapon to be used. It ain't complicated. One cannot fire a weapon that has no round in the chamber. It has to be there or get there.

Sorry to be redundant.

 

[CaptMac]

Shotgun

The sounds of a slide action shotgun being cycled announces your location to everyone within earshot.

 

[REOIV]

Well hell, REOIV, using your logic we should just lock up our guns or turn them in as we're not all that likely to need them. For that matter, most of us aren't going to die in a traffic accident so lets forget the seatbelts as well.

You have missed what I was saying and gone straight to the "If you don't think this way then you're no better than a gun grabber." approach to gun debate.

I'm saying that for the vast majority of gun owners we never ever have to use our guns. (We say this all the time pointing out after every gun shooting 300 million other guns weren't used in a crime spree today.)

Being prepared for the unlikely to happen is one thing but being prepared for the unlikely of the unlikely is just ridiculous. It is mall ninja silly. Wearing a seat belt is like owning a gun.

Having a 5 point harness seat belt and fire retardant cloths and helmet on in case of an explosive accident is a bit much but there is a chance it could happen.

The prudent measure is to be prepared for the .0001%, but don't let that outside possibility rule our lives.

I might have to take .308 rounds to my back when leaving my golf cart to goto the slushy stand. So I wear two ceramic plates in the back of my mall security vest just in case.

I still contend that relying on the sound of racking a shotgun to be enough of a deterrent is bad tactics (thats not to say that bad tactics don't ever work ).

See here is the problem with what you and others are saying.

We say having a shot gun and racking it to put a round in it is enough a deterrent for most any intruder.

You guys seem to think we are saying "Playing a cassette tape of a shotgun being racked" will make intruders stay away.

Two WHOLLY different aspects.

No one is seriously suggesting the sound is enough of a deterrent. It is the sound plus the implied threat of force. Which works fine for the majority of situations.

As for those that ask for proof of the sound working, isn't that the same silly approach the gun-grabbers use when they say show us proof having a gun saved your life.

Many times it goes unreported or under reported.

Who calls the cops to say I scared some kids off my porch by racking my shotgun.

Or who says I had some hooligans near my house and I racked my shotgun and asked them to leave. Who the hell files the report on that?

 

[TexasRifleman]

I can't say much about pump shotguns but I've seen people of criminal intent respond to the sound of a pistol slide being racked.

I'm sure it has happened, no doubt.

The problem with the sound deterrent is that it gives away your position. Dogs, alarms, all those sound deterrents still conceal your location while still providing a deterrent.

Once you rack the slide on whatever it is you're holding you have told anyone that cares to notice exactly where you are.

I would put forward the notion that it's a very bad idea to give away any information about your location or situation when someone does happen to be in your home uninvited.

If you get the guy that ISN'T frightened away, you've given up a lot of advantage tactically.

From a strategy point of view you have a HUGE advantage inside your home, you know every little corner, every lampshade, every loose rug.

The deterrents should be something like you mention, dogs or alarms. It should not be something that gives away your exact location, on the off chance that you are facing that one in a million criminal that is just not afraid of the fight.

 

[REOIV]

The sounds of a slide action shotgun being cycled announces your location to everyone within earshot.

Congratulations on stating the obvious. That would be the point of racking the gun with the bad guy in the house.

You non verbally clue them into the fact that you are armed, aware of their presence and now ready to kill them if they keep up their current activity.

Unless hunting intruders by sitting in the dark and being quiet is your plan, which isn't very high road. Especially if the intruder happened to be a friend or family member.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Unless hunting intruders by sitting in the dark and being quiet is your plan, which isn't very high road.

If someone has broken into my house, I intend to hunt them down in a VERY non-high road manner unless they decide to leave.

Why in the world would you do anything less? I am fairly certain a home invader will not show you the same courtesy.

Identifying the target is certainly critical, that's what lights are for.

 

[John G]

Unless hunting intruders by sitting in the dark and being quiet is your plan, which isn't very high road. Especially if the intruder happened to be a friend or family member.

I don't know about "hunting" intruders, but standing in plain sight and announcing your location seems tactically incorrect.

 

[REOIV]

Once you rack the slide on whatever it is you're holding you have told anyone that cares to notice exactly where you are.

Come on.

I suppose having a creaky bed is a liability too.

Don't use your flashlight to determine who the bad guy the light will give you away. You should have remote lights and cameras to watch the bad guy/s.

Make sure any noisy floor boards are replaced don't want a squeaky floor giving you away.

Don't have any clocks,night lights, dvd players or anything that could give off ambient light which would aid the burglar in seeing easily in the darkness of your house.

Hopefully you keep pretending to snore or what ever noises you make while sleeping so the intruder doesn't realize you've woken up either.

It is just silly bull**** at this point. I have yet to see any house dark enough that you can't get around it at night when your eyes are adjusted to the dark.

The odds that you need to be a total silent ninja just in case is crazy. It is enough that you have a gun there, loaded and ready to use it.

 

[REOIV]

I don't know about "hunting" intruders, but standing in plain sight and announcing your location seems tactically incorrect.

So you have to be in plain sight to rack a shotgun?

Sound requires line of sight?

This is new to me and most everyone else.

Besides what does it matter at that point. If your racking the shotgun it better be aimed at the person.

 

[REOIV]

Identifying the target is certainly critical, that's what lights are for.

Wait wait, light is ok even though it gives away your position even more than sound does.

That and you now lose your night vision by using it.

What if is more than one guy and now your light gave you away!

You should stay totally silent and in the dark don't ever give away your position you'll lose the upper hand in hunting the intruders!

 

[md7]

hello texan,

i do agree that the sound a pump shotgun makes is probably a deterent in most cases.

that said, i would never depend on the sound alone to cause an attacker/intruder to cease or leave the inside of the house.

as for giving away my position. by the time i rack the slide, 911 has been called and my wife and i are behind some cover with said shotgun pointed at the bedroom door. i am willing to bet my chances are better than his if said intruder is curious enough to see what made that racket behind the closed door.

welcome to THR texan.

 

[Ed Ames]

TR.... you are right that it gives up your location. That may or may not be a big deal.

Scenario 1: You have a fenced yard all the way around the house with locked gates. Outside the house you have one or more dogs. The doors of the house are locked. Inside the house you have other security systems. The house has many rooms with hallways and other interconnections.

Scenario 2: You have a path from the street to the front door. The apartment has one big living/cooking/sleeping room directly behind the front door and a bathroom off to the side. There are no animals or other security systems in place.

You are asleep in bed.

In scenario 1 you have many advantages. You would not want to give up those advantages by indicating your location.

In scenario 2 you have no advantages. Anyone who busts down your door will surprise you and will figure out where you are very quickly whether you pump your shotgun or not.

Your statements are very wise for people living closer to scenario 1. They make no sense for the many people living out something like scenario 2.

 

[John G]

So you have to be in plain sight to rack a shotgun?

Sound requires line of sight?

This is new to me and most everyone else.

Besides what does it matter at that point. If your racking the shotgun it better be aimed at the person.

Of course not. If you read what I originally quoted, that refers to the "sitting in the dark" portion. I chose the quoted line carefully. Please read with equal care.

 

[REOIV]

i do agree that the sound a pump shotgun makes is probably a deterent in most cases.

that said, i would never depend on the sound alone to cause an attacker/intruder to cease or leave the inside of the house.

as for giving away my position. by the time i rack the slide, 911 has been called and my wife and i are behind some cover with said shotgun pointed at the bedroom door. i am willing to bet my chances are better than his if said intruder is curious enough to see what made that racket behind the closed door.

welcome to THR texan.

THIS ^^^ Right here

It doesn't matter if they hear you rack the gun or not. Unless they are in the same room as you, you've given away nothing other than there is now someone with a racked gun in that room.

And if you're in the same room you've racked and loaded a gun you're pointing at them.

At no time did racking the shotgun = playing a cassette tape of a shotgun being racked.

 

[REOIV]

Of course not. If you read what I originally quoted, that refers to the "sitting in the dark" portion. I chose the quoted line carefully. Please read with equal care.

I can't follow you on that one.

I mention hunting intruders by lying in wait in the dark with a gun to you saying standing in plain sight with a shotgun.

At no time did I say you have to rack your gun in plain sight. The sound is a deterrent. If you are in a hall and you hear someone rack a shotgun in room off to the side, does it really matter now that they gave away their position?

 

[John G]

I can't follow you on that one.

Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Caipirinha]

So am I "hunting criminals" when I hear a noise in the night and investigate? Or should I barricade myself and call the cops every time that happens?

 

[TexasRifleman]

So am I "hunting criminals" when I hear a noise in the night and investigate?

If you don't have that mindset then yes, you should stay in your room and call 911, sure.

If you didn't think it might be something bad then why bother to investigate?

Going to check on noises that might be an intruder, without having a thought about it actually being one, is called condition white and it's a good way to get killed.

 

[Library Guy]

So, what if, as a homeowner, I hear the burglar rack his shotgun? Do I run away at the chiling sound or do I rack my shotgun twice to show him I'm twice as bad as he is?

When did self defense get so complicated?

 

[Caipirinha]

If I didn't think it could be a criminal, I wouldn't bother to investigate nor would I be armed. You may think a random noise at night is worthy of a 911 call, I'm not sure your responders will agree.

 

[chas08]

I know that no one is immune to crime. The worst possible things can happen in the best places. I'm in favor of giving as little warning as possible to a bad guy. But you have to be sure he is a bad guy and not a loved one. At some point you're going to have to give yourself away. You just have to stack the deck in your favor. But if I did live in an area where I had to live in fear or had to be on constant guard of criminals 24/7..."I'd Move"

 

[Ed Ames]

Many things go bump, bang, splash, thud and similar in the night and can cause immediate harm to your home or family. Criminals are just one possible source of those sounds.

Pipes break. Trees fall. Pets knock things over. Wild animals hole up in crawlspaces. Family members trip and fall.

It can be very expensive to ignore bumps in the night even if you don't expect criminal behavior. That's why shotguns are sub-par home defense weapons. It's prudent to have a handgun in your pocket when you check to see what caused a noise. If the noise was not criminal in origin you can pocket the gun and deal with or ignore the problem. That's harder with a shotgun.

 

[MrCleanOK]

Texan,

I will agree that the sound of a pump gun racking is very distinctive, and probably does have a deterrent effect. That said, I will never rack one into the tube of my home defense gun with the intention of scaring the boogey man away. If I'm putting a shell in the tube, it will be because I feel I may have to empty it into somebody.

Consider this- if somebody has the motivation to break into your home, they'll just do it to somebody else if you send them on their way unharmed. Sure, people will make the argument that people (even criminals) deserve a chance to reform, but that's a judgement call that will be the last thing from my mind when something goes bump in the middle of the night in my house.

 

[Fishman777]

I've got another scenario...

You don't give up your position by racking your slide, because you didn't want to give up your "tactical" advantage, the bad guy comes into your room, and then you blow him away before he even knows where you are there. In this case, you didn't give up your tactical advantage, but you probably pissed away your "legal" advantage and your 401k.

The police come to your home and investigate the scene and question you about the shooting. After you "impress" them with your knowledge of combat tactics, they immediately recognize that you probably used excessive force to defend your property, instead of your life.

You have the right to defend your life, but in most states, you do *NOT* have a right to defend your property. You would have to justify your actions in court and convince the jury that your life was in danger. That is a problem because of the "video game" mentality that led to the shooting in the first place. In this case, you go to jail, but not only that, you get sued by the bad guy's family because the guy didn't even have a weapon. Really smart. You would have just committed a far more heinous crime than the drug addict that was just shot.

I'm not suggesting that anyone that participated in this thread would do this sort of thing, but I'm sure that there are some people that frequent gun forums that would. I've seen some really paranoid stuff posted on gun forums, so I'm certain that this scenario could and probably has happened. There was a real-world incident where a wife shot a burglar that was beating the heck out of her husband. 15 minutes after the shooting, the family calmed down and called 911. The bad guy died on the way to the emergency room, and the wife was charged with murder, because they didn't immediately call 911. I'm sure that most forum members are smart enough not to make these type of mistakes, but I just wanted to post this as a warning for those that don't know any better.

 

[Ed Ames]

Fishman... your argument is reasonable but it flat doesn't work with people who include "Texas" in their user name.