1911Tuner
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That would be me. Been packin' one daily for about 6 months now.
SA for CCW?
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That would be me. Been packin' one daily for about 6 months now.
David E
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ANY gun with you beats any gun not, but show me someone that carries a 2-shot single action derringer/kel-tec .32/.380 for defense and "feels" comfortable with it for defense, and I'll show you someone that's never had to draw and fire it in a defensive situation.
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Or maybe someone who:
Knows that the odds of having to reach for a gun in self defense are very slim, and...
That the odds of becoming involved in an actual shootout are even slimmer, and...
That the odds of having to defend against a grappling and/or a knife or bludgeon are much higher than either of the previous two...and that 2 shots with the muzzle near or in contact with the attacker's body will probably shut him off...even if the cartridge is a lowly .32 caliber.
No, there are no guarantees of that. There are exceptions to every rule...but having to shoot someone on a given day is pretty much an exception, too.
By and large, most private citizens who carry a gun don't have an actual or well-defined need to carry one. They carry for that one in a million chance that today is their day to be attacked. They want to carry something that's light and unobtrusive. For many, a 5-shot snub .38 or even a two-shot derringer is comforting after the sun goes down and they have to walk through an alleyway to get to their car.
People who have a real need to carry a gun usually carry two...at least if they're smart.
Darkness
Member
I've carried my Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8ths in .45 Colt as a CCW for a while now. I carry 6 spare rounds for it in a snap-on belt carrier.
I have never felt under-gunned with it. For me, it feels right, and I am comfortable and confident in its use. That's good enough for me. After all, I am the one carrying it.
I have never felt under-gunned with it. For me, it feels right, and I am comfortable and confident in its use. That's good enough for me. After all, I am the one carrying it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Darkness sayeth:
Yes!
See...here's the thing.
If you're faced with a man intent on killing you, and that man has his gun
in his hand while yours is tucked away under your jacket...I don't care
what you have under there, and how many spare magazines you've got on board.
You've probably lost that fight.
If, on the other hand...you have your radar working to full capacity,
and you see the trouble coming before it gets to you, and you have your gun
in your hand when the flag flies...you've probably won that fight...even
if all you've got is a '73 SAA with the hammer down on an empty chamber.
So, placing your trust in your equipment won't cut it. It's the man and his mindset that prevails.
The weapon is incidental.
Yes!
See...here's the thing.
If you're faced with a man intent on killing you, and that man has his gun
in his hand while yours is tucked away under your jacket...I don't care
what you have under there, and how many spare magazines you've got on board.
You've probably lost that fight.
If, on the other hand...you have your radar working to full capacity,
and you see the trouble coming before it gets to you, and you have your gun
in your hand when the flag flies...you've probably won that fight...even
if all you've got is a '73 SAA with the hammer down on an empty chamber.
So, placing your trust in your equipment won't cut it. It's the man and his mindset that prevails.
The weapon is incidental.
David E
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How about because this is America and they simply want to exercise their right to Self Defense. They carry because cops can't be everywhere and would prefer to rely on themselves instead of relying on luck or the badguys whim? That seems to be an actual, well defined need to me.
Any gun "works" as long as you don't need it.
But when you really need a gun, then you need a REAL one, not some 2-shot derringer or a single action mini-revolver that the owner "felt comfortable with" mere seconds earlier.
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Works for me. Most of us carry:
A..Because we can, and:
B...Because it comforts us.
Still doesn't meet the criteria for an actual need. It still falls back to the reasons cited above. Need, as in "The cops can't be everywhere." isn't the same as a defined need. Firemen can't be everywhere, either...but we don't carry a fire extinguisher with us.
What you need is a rifle...not a pistol or a revolver. Again...most of us carry because it comforts us. In that sense, any gun is better than no gun, and about any gun will suffice in an emergency provided we can use it well. A Freedom Arms .22 caliber mini revolver could have provided for a much different outcome in "The Onion Field" or for any number of deadly attacks, rapes, murders, etc.
Just because some of us don't walk around prepared to do battle with an entire gang doesn't mean that we're not able to mount an effective defense against a personal attack.
One more time...It's not the equipment that prevails. It's the mindset...and the skill with the equipment that we happen to have with us that'll get us home alive.
JImbothefiveth
Member
According to that one person, who actually timed it, yes, SA is slower
The "various sources" were Marshal and Sanow. Of course, Buffalo Bore ammo might be different. I believe the problem is that .45 colt bullets are usually designed for hunting, while .45 ACP bullets are designed for self-defense.
Tell me when you've had to use it how well it worked. Until then, I still say I'd rather carry something better
Well that means if I need to use it, it's already a bad day. I wouldn't want to use a less effective tool if that happens.
Do you have a source for this?
Unless under stress, you miss the hammer. In addition, if I have to draw in the first scenario, I really would want to get that first shot off as quickly as I can. I'd probably pull the hammer even on a DA revolver, however, it's good to know I don't have to.
While lots of skill and poor equipment is better than good equipment and no skill, equipment does make a difference, and the police and military appear to agree with me
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SCBradley
Member
One guy on the interwebs said so? Well then, discussion over.
I know for a fact that I can make accurate hits with a SAA, or my derringer inside it's range limits, just as fast as I can with a G17 or PM9.
Reloading quickly or an injured arm (all too common in these discussions) would be the only limitation for me.
If I'm going to take on MS13 single handed, well that's not gonna happen.
Taking out the trash or stopping by Albertson's, which are infinitely more realistic activities, I'll take my Bond.
But then again, I'm not trained in ninjitsu, nor do I work in a mall.
cougar1717
Member
If a circumstance actually happened where I needed to draw a CCW, I wouldn't be worried if I was fast enough or the caliber big enough. I'd only be glad that I had it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
No argument there...but most of us aren't the police or the military, and we don't normally engage in gunfights in the course of a day, nor do we have reason to believe that we will. No...if the time comes for us to have need of a gun, it will be sudden...without warning...probably at powder burn distance...and the winner and loser will be decided within 3-5 seconds and with 3-5 shots fired from both sides...about 98% of the time.
Even if that worst-case scenario comes to pass...you're under no obligation to protect and serve...and going into a firefight headlong is not only a good way to get killed...it can land you in serious trouble as an active participant.
Your gun is there to get you out of a situation that you didn't plan for, didn't ask for, and would rather have avoided in the first place. Your goal is to survive. Period. That you took out a few bad guys before you died will be of little comfort to your widow and children, and if you survive...you could land in prison for several years, or be sued into destitution for wrongful death by the family of the "poor victim."
Let me see if I can define need and want a little more clearly.
Two hypothetical situations:
The thug that you fingered for an armed robbery has gotten an early parole, and he's put the word out that he plans to visit you very soon so that he can express his extreme displeasure for your insistence on doing your civic duty.
You now have a defined need to carry a gun.
It's almost midnight, and you just remembered that your kid asked you to pick up a bag of cookies and a 2 liter Coke for his class party tomorrow. The grocery store isn't in a particularly bad part of town...but it's still midnight, and you'd just feel better by dropping that little M37 Smith in your coat pocket when you go.
That's a "want to" because it comforts you...but there still isn't a defined need to carry it.
JImbothefiveth
Member
Yet the average gun fight lasts for 3 rounds. The derringer has 2.
I don't intend to go in to a firefight. If people start shooting at me, I would still like to have more than 5 rounds, even if it's a 5 shooter and a sppedloader.
In a grappling situation, I think the SA would have a very serious disadvantage. And average is not mode.
I know. I think that extra rounds and quicker rate of fire is more likely to get me out of a desperate situation.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
By that token, you also might miss the thumb safety on that cocked and locked 1911. That's why we practice.
Please note that I never said that a 2-shooter is an ideal carry weapon.
It's not...but it is a gun, and in the vast majority of cases, the mere presence of a gun is enough to calm the waters...and if you do have to fire...one or two shots delivered amidships can go a long way toward giving you time to make good your exit. That's what the gun is for. To extract you from trouble. If it does that...it's served its purpose.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Of course you do. So do I. I want an M-16 and 300 rounds in loaded magazines if I'm being fired on.
BUT...
The odds are very small that you'll need all that ordnance if the flag happens to fly in your personal space on a given day.
Consider the case of Bernard Goetz...aka "The Subway Vigilante" who faced 4 attackers at close range...with a 5-shot snub .38 revolver...and won. He won that fight because:
A...He had a gun.
B...He had the will and the determination to use it.
C...He gained an edge because he saw trouble brewing, and had his hand on the gun when it started, so that when he launched his counter attack, his adversaries were so taken by surprise, that they weren't able to neutralize him...even though they could have done so.
One...more...time. These diminutive hideout weapons aren't anything even approaching ideal for all situations...but they can be life-saving tools for many situations.
Consider all the women who were raped and/or murdered during the decade between 1990 and 2000. Imagine the number who could have or would have been spared had they only had a 2-shot derringer or a .25 automatic or a snub .38 in their possession. And, yes...even a single-action revolver would have made a lot of difference. A good many women would be home with their families today.
I generally carry a Sig P232 which some would criticize as being too low powered and low capacity to be an effective CCW weapon. I say BS. Its the one smallish pistol I can hit everything I am shooting at and I have tried plenty.
When I go fishing, I have been known to carry a Ruger Vaquero and I would have no problem carrying a SAA clone. The .45 colt, the round that I like to shoot out of single actions mostly, is no plinker round, and will get a bad guy thinking twice right away.
Bottom line is this, if you feel comfortable with a certain platform and you regularly train with it, then there is no reason not to carry it with you.
When I go fishing, I have been known to carry a Ruger Vaquero and I would have no problem carrying a SAA clone. The .45 colt, the round that I like to shoot out of single actions mostly, is no plinker round, and will get a bad guy thinking twice right away.
Bottom line is this, if you feel comfortable with a certain platform and you regularly train with it, then there is no reason not to carry it with you.
SCBradley
Member
I don't believe I said anything about bringing it to a gunfight.
I was responding to you inferring that SA is always slower for everyone because David E timed himself shooting one.
If I was expecting a gunfight to break out where I was, I'd go somewhere else.
forgive my lack of education and experience in the area of ammunition, but I dont really understand what the difference in effectiveness would be in a round designed for hunting and one designed for self defense.... ? seems like the goal of them both is to bring the target down as quickly and humanelyas possible...
Humanely meaning FAST!!!!
"hunting" bullets/loads are designed for deep penetration to reach the vitals of largish, heavy-bodied game. If you know you're shooting thru shoulder bones, "controlled expansion" is iffy.
"defensive" bullets are designed for stopping power - killing is secondary. Hollowpoints create hydrostatic shock and a large temporary wound cavity which can result in rapid shock and drop in blood pressure with less than perfect placement. Also, over-penetration is often a concern in urban environments (but usually not when hunting).
those seem to be the predominant theories, anyway.
-Daizee
"defensive" bullets are designed for stopping power - killing is secondary. Hollowpoints create hydrostatic shock and a large temporary wound cavity which can result in rapid shock and drop in blood pressure with less than perfect placement. Also, over-penetration is often a concern in urban environments (but usually not when hunting).
those seem to be the predominant theories, anyway.
-Daizee
David E
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Anti-gunners use this same "argument." Who gets to define "need," anyway? They are wrong, so are you.
Totally different dynamic. The fire has zero interest in me or what I have. I can leave the area where a fire is. If I cannot, then a hand held fire extinguisher won't do me much good.
Conversely, a lone badguy may want my money/car/wife/daughter and could block my only exit with a rusty knife. He may just want to kill me for the thrill or to make it easier for him to take from me what he wants. This is a poor time to rely on a 2-shot derringer or single action mini-revolver.
You DO keep a fire extinguisher in your car, don't you?
A rifle IS a real gun ! Hard to carry routinely, tho. Lacking that, I want an effective handgun.
Well, the more I post on this forum, the more I realize that you're right. MOST people regard their gun as a talisman, not as a serious fighting tool.
As such, they hope or "trust" that their gun, or talisman, will act as a good luck charm that will avert evil, and/or be able to produce magical or miraculous effects, simply by being present. So, to these people, any gun works just as well as any other. The single action 2-shot derringer is "just as effective" as a Colt .45 1911/Glock 19/.38 snubby. Truthfully, sometimes, the gun works just that way, requiring no shots to be fired. But that doesn't mean it's "effective" in the true sense. Just because someone successfully drove cross country on bald tires doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I"ve said countless times that any gun with you beats any gun not. But, again, that does not mean that all guns are "equally effective."
To a point, sure. But I bet that most people can use even a DA snubby better than a single action 2-shot derringer, especially under stress.
Or maybe not. The Doctor and his wife who were assaulted by an escaped felon in Arkansas shot the felon with a NAA single action mini-revolver in .22 magnum. Didn't kill him or stop him, but it did make him mad! Do you think that Doctor upgraded his gun since then?
Why would you think that someone who wisely decides to carry something bigger/better than a 2-shot derringer must be so loaded down with guns and ammo that he could take on an entire gang? Even a .38 snubby is a quantum leap over the single shot 2-shot derringer and probably weighs less!
I agree that mindset is extremely important. Moreso than equipment, but that doesn't mean that equipment is meaningless or that anything will work just as well as something better.
To me, part of the mindset is choosing effective equipment in the first place.
David E
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No, one guy in this thread , me, took the time to actually do it using a timer and posted his results.
If YOUR results are different, please go out and do the same thing and post your findings.
And you know this "fact" how ? This was why I went out and used an actual shot timer to begin with; to give REAL time frames. This is far different than "it feels just as fast."
As far as being able to shoot your SA 2-shot derringer "just as fast" as your Glock, the laws of physics along with an electronic shot timer would disagree with you when it came to the second shot.
Did you even read those posts? I never said "always" or "everyone."
I allowed that using TWO hands, shooting a single action could be just as fast as a DA or semi-auto. My main point early on was that using ONE hand a single action is, in fact, slower than using one hand for a DA or semi-auto.
I never said I was the fastest or best at anything.
If anyone thinks my results are slow, that you can do better, or just want to see what YOU can do, then please go out and do the same thing and share your results. It'd be great if we had multiple results to compare.
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