bannockburn
Member
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
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- 26,300
saaman
Very nice collection of single action revolvers, especially the conversion models!
Very nice collection of single action revolvers, especially the conversion models!
Single Action Revolvers
- Thread starter cal44mag
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J-Bar
Member
And now a before and after sequence.
This .44 Mag Bisley:
Became this:
Max, obviously there was some polishing going on, as well as grip replacement. Did you do the polishing or did you hire it out? In either case, well done!
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Jeeze those are big bullets. Is it still a 45 Colt?
robhof
Member
Jack Huntington did that one for me. It's still a .44 Mag but now has an oversized six-shot cylinder. It's struck, polished and rebelled, and that is an aftermarket barrel. The grips were also done by Huntington and I believe they are Claro walnut. Thanks!
Yes, it's a .45 Colt but with an oversized six-shot cylinder. That is a .45 Colt +P+ load by Garrett featuring a 405 grain bullet. Out of that gun they run right at 1,200 fps.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
I sure wouldn't want to stand in the way of one of those things.
The water buffalo in my avatar fell to that load. It worked well!
Speedo66
Member
Sounds like a slightly slow 45-70 out of a pistol. Nice, but I'd prefer you shoot it rather than me. lol
Speedo66
Member
I wondered where the name Schofield came from re: the S&W. I just returned from Oahu HI and passed by the active army Schofield Barracks on the north shore and wondered if there was a relation.
Turns out there was, but not directly. The barracks were named for an army general, John Schofield, who was involved in the Civil War, spent some military time in HI where he recommended establishing a naval base in Pearl Harbor, was a sup't. of West Point, was sec'y of war, and at one point was commanding general of the army.
But it was his younger brother George, a major at the time, who was credited with the name on the S&W. He improved the design by making the action opening/closing wear parts replaceable, and by doing so, received a royalty on each gun sold. His older brother at that time was in charge of army ordinance, so it's thought the army dropped the S&W contract they had for political reasons related to the royalties. Sadly, George also used one to take his own life.
Turns out there was, but not directly. The barracks were named for an army general, John Schofield, who was involved in the Civil War, spent some military time in HI where he recommended establishing a naval base in Pearl Harbor, was a sup't. of West Point, was sec'y of war, and at one point was commanding general of the army.
But it was his younger brother George, a major at the time, who was credited with the name on the S&W. He improved the design by making the action opening/closing wear parts replaceable, and by doing so, received a royalty on each gun sold. His older brother at that time was in charge of army ordinance, so it's thought the army dropped the S&W contract they had for political reasons related to the royalties. Sadly, George also used one to take his own life.
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J-Bar
Member
"... so it's thought the army dropped the S&W contract they had for political reasons related to the royalties."
Perhaps not; there is evidence the Colt SAA was simply more popular with soldiers in the field. From "The Peacemaker and Its Rivals," by John E. Parsons, William Morrow and Company, 1940:
The first top-break S&W submitted to the Army Ordnance Board was the Russian model which passed firing, sanding and rust tests, but was rejected in March, 1874 for
"...shape of the handle...shape of the comb of the hammer...presence of the safety-lip and notch...the extra finger brace (on the trigger guard)...heavier than the Colt's pistol now in use...multiplicity and delicacy of parts...difficulty of assembling them..." (pages 29 and 30)
The Schofield design was submitted and accepted for trial use in June, 1874. 3000 revolvers were initially ordered for trial use. Other design changes were subsequently made and a second model was submitted and tested by Captain J. P. Farley in January, 1876.
" (Captain Farley's) report of January 12, 1876, stated that the modifications were proposed by Mr. Wesson with Major Schofield's acquiescence. The interest of this officer, whose brother, Major General John M. Schofield, who had been Secretary of War in 1868, seems always to have commanded respectful attention from the Ordnance Department." (page 32)
From that statement, It sounds to me like there was no concern about political reasons or family connections. Indeed, the family connection may have been an advantage.
Some 5,019 Schofield revolvers were issued to Regular Army units between 1876 and 1893. An additional 3, 569 revolvers were issued to the militia. (table, page 33).
"Preference (for the Colt) among the military was reflected in the annual report for 1877 of the ordnance officer attached to the command most active against the Indians. Thus Captain Otho Ernest Michaelis, of the Department of Dakota, wrote: 'The experience of the past year has shown that the Colt's calibre .45 pistol is a reliable weapon. The Schofield Smith and Wesson Revolvers used in the field have not proved themselves to Cavalry officers.' " (page 33).
This reference leads me to believe that the troops were the ones who cast the final vote against the Schofield.
The next chapter in "The Peacemaker and Its Rivals" compares the Colt, Schofield, and the Remington 1875 revolvers. Basically, the Schofield and the Remington did not function as well after torture tests, including rusting, fouling with sand, and firing without cleaning. The standardized testing conducted in 1876 to compare these three revolvers is the basis for present-day tests for all US military small arms.
Perhaps not; there is evidence the Colt SAA was simply more popular with soldiers in the field. From "The Peacemaker and Its Rivals," by John E. Parsons, William Morrow and Company, 1940:
The first top-break S&W submitted to the Army Ordnance Board was the Russian model which passed firing, sanding and rust tests, but was rejected in March, 1874 for
"...shape of the handle...shape of the comb of the hammer...presence of the safety-lip and notch...the extra finger brace (on the trigger guard)...heavier than the Colt's pistol now in use...multiplicity and delicacy of parts...difficulty of assembling them..." (pages 29 and 30)
The Schofield design was submitted and accepted for trial use in June, 1874. 3000 revolvers were initially ordered for trial use. Other design changes were subsequently made and a second model was submitted and tested by Captain J. P. Farley in January, 1876.
" (Captain Farley's) report of January 12, 1876, stated that the modifications were proposed by Mr. Wesson with Major Schofield's acquiescence. The interest of this officer, whose brother, Major General John M. Schofield, who had been Secretary of War in 1868, seems always to have commanded respectful attention from the Ordnance Department." (page 32)
From that statement, It sounds to me like there was no concern about political reasons or family connections. Indeed, the family connection may have been an advantage.
Some 5,019 Schofield revolvers were issued to Regular Army units between 1876 and 1893. An additional 3, 569 revolvers were issued to the militia. (table, page 33).
"Preference (for the Colt) among the military was reflected in the annual report for 1877 of the ordnance officer attached to the command most active against the Indians. Thus Captain Otho Ernest Michaelis, of the Department of Dakota, wrote: 'The experience of the past year has shown that the Colt's calibre .45 pistol is a reliable weapon. The Schofield Smith and Wesson Revolvers used in the field have not proved themselves to Cavalry officers.' " (page 33).
This reference leads me to believe that the troops were the ones who cast the final vote against the Schofield.
The next chapter in "The Peacemaker and Its Rivals" compares the Colt, Schofield, and the Remington 1875 revolvers. Basically, the Schofield and the Remington did not function as well after torture tests, including rusting, fouling with sand, and firing without cleaning. The standardized testing conducted in 1876 to compare these three revolvers is the basis for present-day tests for all US military small arms.
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Armybrat
Member
captain awesome
Member
Awe man. Y'all have me wanting more single actions. Threads like these point out the gaping holes in my collection. I love them so.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
The latch parts of all the Smith and Wesson Top Break revolvers could be replaced. That was not the reason Schofield was able to obtain a patent on his redesign of the latch.
Schofield liked the early 44 caliber Smith & Wesson American design, the first Top Break revolver S&W made, but he thought the latch could be improved. The barrel latch was mounted to the barrel extension. In order to open the gun for reloading it required two hands. The shooter would reach over the top of the gun with the left hand while holding onto the gun with the right hand and lift the latch. With the latch lifted, the barrel could then be rotated down for loading.
Schofield was a cavalry officer. His idea was to mount the latch on the frame, so that the thumb of the right hand could pull it back. Then a mounted trooper could brush the barrel across his leg to open the gun. It only took one hand. He had a working model made up, then applied for and recieved a patent for his latch design.
Schofield then approached Smith and Wesson with his idea and the Schofield model was born. Because he owned a patent on the latch design, S&W had to pay him a royalty for every revolver they made using this type of latch. But Daniel Wesson, always the crafty old New Englander, set his engineers to work to try and find a way around Schofield's patent. But he didn't have to bother. The Schofield was only manufactured for a short time, from 1875 until 1877. Only about 9,000 were manufactured. After that, S&W went back to their older design for all the latches for all the Top Break revolvers they made, right up until the early years of the 20th Century.
Here is a close up of the latch of the Schofield. It is mounted to the frame by the pin near its bottom. Pulling the latch back with the thumb freed the barrel to be rotated down.
Here is a view of the gun partially open to show the two parts of the latch. The part on the frame is the part that gets pulled back by the thumb, the part above is the mating part, screwed to the barrel extension. Notice the rear sight is incorporated into the latch, and there is a matching groove on the other part to provide a clear sight line to the front sight.
This is the latch on a New Model #3. This is similar to the latch on the American and Russian models. It is mounted to the barrel extension. The knurled part is what rotates up to free the latch. Notice there is a cutout on the hammer. This clears a ledge on the latch. Unless the hammer is pulled back slightly to the 'half cock' position, the latch cannot be opened.
Pulling the latch up clears the two lugs on the frame, allowing the barrel to be rotated down for loading. Smith and Wesson went on to use this basic latch design for all their Top Break revolvers, including the smaller pocket models. It is actually possible to open the latch by pushing up with the thumb of the hand holding the gun, but it is awkward and difficult. Two hands are required to open the gun easily.
It is often speculated that Schofield used one of his revolvers to take his own life, but there is no proof of that.
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Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
The first Smith and Wesson Top Break revolver submitted to the Army was the American Model. This model was made from 1870 until 1872, so it is logical the first one was sent to the Army sometime around 1870. This first one, Serial Number 1, was chambered for the 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge. After evaluating the revolver, the Army ordered 1000 of them, however the cartridge they were chambered for was changed to the centerfire 44 S&W cartridge that used a heeled bullet. The Army took possession of 800 blued Americans and 200 nickel plated Americans. Sorry, I don't have the year handy, but it was before the Army tested the Colt Single Action Army in 1872. Thus, the American model was the first large frame, centerfire revolver that the Army procured. There is evidence that some were used in the Indian wars.
SN 1 is currently in the Springfield Armory National Historical Site, in Springfield Mass.
This is what the American model looked like. Notice how much straighter the grip is and how much longer the extractor housing under the barrel is than on the Schofield model.
Regarding why the Army ordered so few Schofields, it must be remembered that S&W did not want to be left out of Army contracts after Colt contracted with the Army for an order of 3000 Single Action Army revolvers in 1873. More Colt contacts followed. S&W was hamstrung by the fact that up to that time all of their cartridge revolvers were chambered for 44 caliber cartridges and the Army specified that a 45 caliber cartridge would be required. It was no problem to chamber a S&W revolver for a 45 caliber cartridge, however the cylinders were two short to accept the 45 Colt cartridge. Rather than retool for a longer cylinder, S&W got the Army to agree to a shorter 45 caliber cartridge, which eventually became known as the 45 Schofield cartridge. The Army placed an order for 3000 Schofield revolvers in 1875, and a second order for almost 6,000 revolvers was placed in 1876.
The Colt could fire the shorter S&W cartridge. It has often been theorized that supply problems might have resulted in the longer 45 Colt cartridge being supplied to units equipped with the S&W revolvers, but no historical evidence of this happening has surfaced. In the long run, the Army felt the Colt design was simply more rugged than the S&W design. By sometime in the 1880s all the Schofield revolvers had been surplussed out of the Army and sold to civilian outfits. Wells Fargo bought many of them and cut the barrels down to 5".
Smith and Wesson in the meantime was up to their eyeballs with work, eventually producing about 150,000 Russian models for the Russian, Japanese, and Turkish governments, so they did not attempt to sell anymore revolvers to the Army.
P.S. I always get a kick out of the statement about how delicate the parts were in the S&W revolvers. Anybody who has ever taken a Colt and a S&W Top Break apart can attest that the parts inside a Colt are just as delicate as those inside a S&W. However, there are more moving parts in the Smith because of the automatic ejection feature, and so that was a strike against the S&W design. However, it is a heck of a lot faster to reload a S&W Top Break than it is to reload a Colt.
You pays your money, you takes your choice.
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Arkansas Paul
Member
Forgive me father for I have sinned.
I have coveted Driftwood Johnson, CraigC and Max Prasacs revolvers.
How may I absolve myself?
I have coveted Driftwood Johnson, CraigC and Max Prasacs revolvers.
How may I absolve myself?
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J-Bar
Member
Driftwood;
The statements I quoted in post 87 were directly from Parson's book, which is the only decent Schofield reference I have on my shelf. It does not surprise me that you can provide additional details, and I'm glad you did so! I have never owned an original or reproduction Schofield, and I appreciate your experience in that regard.
The main reason for post #87 was that I could find no evidence that the government was concerned about the relationship between the two Schofield brothers in the book referenced. The preference for the Colt SAA over the Smith and Wesson and Remington revolvers, according to the reference I have available, was simply due to the Colt's ability to continue functioning after extreme abuse in both formal tests and field use.
The statements I quoted in post 87 were directly from Parson's book, which is the only decent Schofield reference I have on my shelf. It does not surprise me that you can provide additional details, and I'm glad you did so! I have never owned an original or reproduction Schofield, and I appreciate your experience in that regard.
The main reason for post #87 was that I could find no evidence that the government was concerned about the relationship between the two Schofield brothers in the book referenced. The preference for the Colt SAA over the Smith and Wesson and Remington revolvers, according to the reference I have available, was simply due to the Colt's ability to continue functioning after extreme abuse in both formal tests and field use.
tuckerdog1
Member
I only have two ( sorry, these are old pics I've posted before )
saaman
Member
CraigC the Pocket Navy conversion started as a kit gun by Palmetto that I finished and used in its percussion version. Later I sent it to John Gren of Spokane, Washington and he converted it to .22 rimfire. The grips I made from Micarta.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
That's awesome! I've seen a few of John Gren's conversions but have yet to lay hands on one. Let me know if you decide to part with it. 
Clayguy
Member
Don't own a Ruger (pretty hard core Smith guy), but borrowed a Super in .44 Mag at the range. One of the most accurate handguns I've shot. Impressive.
Yes, they are impressive. My first shot with mine is practically always dead center on the X (before I am reminded of the recoil), then I have to work back to that to get comfortable with it again!
Taroman
Member
My only (for now) is a.44 Richards Mason.
I shoot .44 Russian in it.
I shoot .44 Russian in it.
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