"The Turner Diaries" hurts our cause....
- Thread starter StrikeFire83
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Public perception doesn't exist. Perception exists at an individual level, not a collective one. If you think "public perception" is a reality, you are not capable of individual, free thought. I suppose there are some people who think this.
The social engineers refer to them as "successful trials."
wingnutx
Member
Nobody suggested any such thing. This thread has been hijacked by hysterical strawmen. EOM.
mike101
Member
Strawmen Hijacking Thread
You're right, I never suggested any such thing. Thank you.
By the way, all of you feel free to type as quickly as you'd like.
I have seen alot of material about Turner Diaries. I've seen the author interviewed. I get it. I don't need to read it. I also don't believe that Nazis are evil because someone told me. I was being sarcastic. Next time, I'll include
for those of you who are slow on the up-take.
Nazis hate Jews, Blacks, Catholics, Hispanics, Swarthy Medditeranean Types, and Homosexuals. Now, explain to me the difference between white-supremacists and Nazis. While you're at it, you can also explain the Turner-Fonda connection. The only one I know of is that she was married to Ted Turner.
As I said earlier, we fought a war to rid the world of Nazis, the worst white supremacists who ever existed. Under these circumstances, why should they have the right to keep it up. People who would deprive so many groups of people of their rights, deserve no rights themselves. That isn't political correctness. It's just decency.
You're right, I never suggested any such thing. Thank you.By the way, all of you feel free to type as quickly as you'd like.
I have seen alot of material about Turner Diaries. I've seen the author interviewed. I get it. I don't need to read it. I also don't believe that Nazis are evil because someone told me. I was being sarcastic. Next time, I'll include
for those of you who are slow on the up-take.Nazis hate Jews, Blacks, Catholics, Hispanics, Swarthy Medditeranean Types, and Homosexuals. Now, explain to me the difference between white-supremacists and Nazis. While you're at it, you can also explain the Turner-Fonda connection. The only one I know of is that she was married to Ted Turner.
As I said earlier, we fought a war to rid the world of Nazis, the worst white supremacists who ever existed. Under these circumstances, why should they have the right to keep it up. People who would deprive so many groups of people of their rights, deserve no rights themselves. That isn't political correctness. It's just decency.
"This thread has been hijacked by hysterical strawmen"
In other words, if we don't agree with you, we are wrong.
I have seen the Turner Diaries for sale at gun shows. I once saw it being sold with other similar literature on a table that was obviously rented by a group of neo-nazis. That was all they had at their table was books, tapes, and pamphlets written about that one subject. I have also seen the Turner Diaries being sold by dealers in books of all kinds. They had books about everything (mostly gun related). I have bought a lot of books over the years from these gun show book dealers.
If we decide that we are going to ban certain books from the show, who decides what gets banned ? Then, are we going to have a censor go through the book dealer's inventory prior to him setting up so the censor can decide what books are going to be sold ?
I was at a show this past weekend. There was a T-Shirt dealer there. They had a bunch of real nice quality T-Shirts with humerous, mostly gun related stuff on them. BUT, they were selling a T-Shirt that said: "The Original Boys in the HOOD" with a picture that I think you can guess. I thought that was in very poor taste and I can't imagine anyone wearing such a thing. But, I also can't see throwing them out of the show. In fact, I bought four T-Shirts from them (Glock, GE Mini-Gun and such). I am a grown man. I can make decisions. I disagreed with them selling that blatantly racist shirt, but they didn't ask me what I thought about it. I was happy the T-Shirt dealer was there. I wish they wouldn't have that one shirt, but it is his table.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the show promoter is putting this show on to make money. I like gun shows and want to see them continue. It isn't going to continue if there isn't any money to be made. So, unfortunately, the promoter is going to sell a table to anyone that he can. Our local shows here arn't all that big, I am sure they arn't turning many people away. We have the guys cleaning glasses, we have the guys with the miracle shoe dressings, we have the benie babies, beef jerky and all that. That is the price we have to pay to keep someone interested in putting the show on in the first place.
FWIW A friend of mine asked the show promoter what was up with the table of nazis and he basically said that he didn't want to get hit with some kind of discrimination lawsuit. The next month my buddy asked him why they wern't back and he said he got too many complaints about them. I guess we could simply complain about certain books being offensive but that opens the door to someone complaining about them all. What if an anti realized you could get books banned for a gun show by complaining. So, they could start complaining about the homemade suppressor books and the conversion to full auto books. Then books about improvised explosives and bobby traps. Then any kind of military manual.................... Where does it end ?
You can't open that door.
In other words, if we don't agree with you, we are wrong.
I have seen the Turner Diaries for sale at gun shows. I once saw it being sold with other similar literature on a table that was obviously rented by a group of neo-nazis. That was all they had at their table was books, tapes, and pamphlets written about that one subject. I have also seen the Turner Diaries being sold by dealers in books of all kinds. They had books about everything (mostly gun related). I have bought a lot of books over the years from these gun show book dealers.
If we decide that we are going to ban certain books from the show, who decides what gets banned ? Then, are we going to have a censor go through the book dealer's inventory prior to him setting up so the censor can decide what books are going to be sold ?
I was at a show this past weekend. There was a T-Shirt dealer there. They had a bunch of real nice quality T-Shirts with humerous, mostly gun related stuff on them. BUT, they were selling a T-Shirt that said: "The Original Boys in the HOOD" with a picture that I think you can guess. I thought that was in very poor taste and I can't imagine anyone wearing such a thing. But, I also can't see throwing them out of the show. In fact, I bought four T-Shirts from them (Glock, GE Mini-Gun and such). I am a grown man. I can make decisions. I disagreed with them selling that blatantly racist shirt, but they didn't ask me what I thought about it. I was happy the T-Shirt dealer was there. I wish they wouldn't have that one shirt, but it is his table.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the show promoter is putting this show on to make money. I like gun shows and want to see them continue. It isn't going to continue if there isn't any money to be made. So, unfortunately, the promoter is going to sell a table to anyone that he can. Our local shows here arn't all that big, I am sure they arn't turning many people away. We have the guys cleaning glasses, we have the guys with the miracle shoe dressings, we have the benie babies, beef jerky and all that. That is the price we have to pay to keep someone interested in putting the show on in the first place.
FWIW A friend of mine asked the show promoter what was up with the table of nazis and he basically said that he didn't want to get hit with some kind of discrimination lawsuit. The next month my buddy asked him why they wern't back and he said he got too many complaints about them. I guess we could simply complain about certain books being offensive but that opens the door to someone complaining about them all. What if an anti realized you could get books banned for a gun show by complaining. So, they could start complaining about the homemade suppressor books and the conversion to full auto books. Then books about improvised explosives and bobby traps. Then any kind of military manual.................... Where does it end ?
You can't open that door.
Well, for one thing, white supremacists have never really had it in for Gypsies. And their armbands look a little different.
I saw a really gangly-looking example of bad genetics with a White Power t-shirt on and Doc Martens with red laces, the other day. He was gone before I had a chance to say, "Dude, you're not the best example of the Master Race I've ever seen."
White-supremacists are the inbreds you see on A&E drinking cheap beer and dancing around pictures of Hitler to crappy music. Nazis on the other hand were a political party in control of a nation that conquered continental Europe. It's kinda like lite beer.... same taste with half the calories.
mike101
Member
I know what you mean. It's riot, some of the people who consider themselves Aryans.
Did you ever see the current head of the American Nazi Party? He's a nerdy looking little dude, (looks alot like Himmler), with a speech impediment. He pronounces R's as W's. Ubersturmfuhrer Elmer Fud.
Cwazy Wabbit.
Did you ever see the current head of the American Nazi Party? He's a nerdy looking little dude, (looks alot like Himmler), with a speech impediment. He pronounces R's as W's. Ubersturmfuhrer Elmer Fud.
Cwazy Wabbit.
Trying to appease the liberals/antis does not work. You give them gun registration, it ends up being gun confiscation - every time.
You give them handgun bans, pretty soon it is AWB, than anything remotely usable as a defensive weapon, next thing you know it is the UK where if you are real nice, and ask politely, you might be able to have a shotgun or a 22 rifle if you keep it unloaded and under lock and key. Oh, and by the way, you are subject to any kind of invasive unannounced search anytime the authorities deem it acceptable.
mike101
Member
It's real simple. Turner Diaries has nothing to do with guns. The other types of books mentioned do.
Again, gun owners do not need to be associated with hate groups. We are having a hard enough time as it is.
Again, gun owners do not need to be associated with hate groups. We are having a hard enough time as it is.
Deanimator
Member
Have you ever seen Frank Collin, the former head of the Chicago Nazis? He was played by Henry Gibson in "The Blues Brothers". There isn't enough colagen in the known universe to build him a chin. He had that whole Yasser Arafat "shave with a fork" thing going on too.
It turns out that he was Jewish. This seems to have come as quite the shock to his fellow "Aryans", who slammed their "bunker" door in reporters' faces when questioned about the revelation.
He's also been convicted of child molestation. Right after I got out of the Army in '84, I was driving to a job interview in Chicago, when I heard on the radio that he'd just been arrested for molesting a mentally handicapped man in the nursing home where Collin worked.
The last I heard of him, he was a "white witch" somewhere out in the Northwest, trying to burrow himself into the Kennewick Man debate, like a publicity hungry tick.
All neo-Nazis seem to have been cloned from him...
FreedomKommando
Member
The property owners or the ones who leased the grounds and organized the gun show. They could write it into the contract. "As a condition of renting table space, I promise not to (1) fly any of the flags of the Third Reich; (2) sell copies of The Turner Diaries; (3) sell T-shirts, coffee cups of any other items which glorify the Third Reich, the National Socialist German Workers Party, or National Socialism."
I'm not talking about beef jerky. Do you think that Klansmen in white sheets should be allowed to operate a booth and recruit people at gun shows? What about some guy hawking T-shirts bearing the image of Osama bin Laden? What about a booth operated by the North American Man Boy Love Association where copies of Pedophilia: The Radical Case by Tom O'Carrol are sold?
I don't think that such walking filth should be allowed space at gun shows. I am not advocating that such people be indicted for peacefully expressing their views. I'm saying that the owners of convention centers and the organizers of gun shows should lower the boom on those people. "Sorry, this is a gun show and we don't rent booth space to Nazis, Klansmen, Al Qaeda, Holocaust-deniers, or child molesters. Go hawk your wares somewhere else."
Let those sick freaks go organize their own show far away from decent people.
gwalchmai
Member
So, "Mike", do you feel that
(a) nothing should be sold at gun shows that has nothing to do with guns,
and
(b) anything which concerns guns is OK to sell at gun shows?
(a) nothing should be sold at gun shows that has nothing to do with guns,
and
(b) anything which concerns guns is OK to sell at gun shows?
wingnutx
Member
Again, you are putting words into another's mouth.
mike101
Member
I think I saw him on the same show. It's been on the History Channel a few times.
I'm telling you, they all look alot like Himmler, Reich Minister of the SS, chicken farmer, and all around shining example of Aryan manhood.
I'm telling you, they all look alot like Himmler, Reich Minister of the SS, chicken farmer, and all around shining example of Aryan manhood.
OP
OP
StrikeFire83
Member
I have read The Turner Diaries, the whole thing. I started this thread because I think it is a pathetically written genocidal white supremacists wet dream that uses a gun-ban as the springboard/justification for its rhetoric.
1. No piece of media should be banned by the government, except for pornographic photographic/video representations of children.
2. When good men stay home and say nothing, only the evil is heard.
3. I’m the most critical of people who hold similar beliefs to my own. People have approached me at gun shows and given me Nazi literature because I have short blonde hair and wear mountain boots.
There is a bottom feeding white supremacist under current in the RTKABA movement that prays on young, poor, un-educated white men who feel insecure about themselves.
The Turner Diaries fosters this, and so I will speak out against it. And, for those who seem to have an eyesight problem, I will state one final time for the record:
I’m am NOT in favor of banning any piece of literature, The Turner Diaries included.
Oh, and one more thing. Although I’m not a Christian I’ve read the entire old testament. The bible does advocate genocide in certain places, but it never calls for men to kill homosexuals. Sorry, fella. God killed the homosexuals at Sodom and Gomorra, not men.
If you are going to try and rope people in with fallacious, red herring arguments, you can at the very least get your facts straight.
1. No piece of media should be banned by the government, except for pornographic photographic/video representations of children.
2. When good men stay home and say nothing, only the evil is heard.
3. I’m the most critical of people who hold similar beliefs to my own. People have approached me at gun shows and given me Nazi literature because I have short blonde hair and wear mountain boots.
There is a bottom feeding white supremacist under current in the RTKABA movement that prays on young, poor, un-educated white men who feel insecure about themselves.
The Turner Diaries fosters this, and so I will speak out against it. And, for those who seem to have an eyesight problem, I will state one final time for the record:
I’m am NOT in favor of banning any piece of literature, The Turner Diaries included.
Oh, and one more thing. Although I’m not a Christian I’ve read the entire old testament. The bible does advocate genocide in certain places, but it never calls for men to kill homosexuals. Sorry, fella. God killed the homosexuals at Sodom and Gomorra, not men.
If you are going to try and rope people in with fallacious, red herring arguments, you can at the very least get your facts straight.
"It's real simple. Turner Diaries has nothing to do with guns. The other types of books mentioned do."
Yeah, but we get into the slippery slope argument again. What about books on knives ? What about books on collecting Nazi stuff ? What about books on collecting any other non-gun subject ? What about WWII fighter plane books ? Can we then ban any book we don't agree with ? What about books people complain about ? What if the books they complain about are in fact about guns ? ................................... It never stops.
The show promoter certainly can decide if he wants to rent them a table but if he DOES rent them a table then where do you get off talking about banning them from the show ? It is his decision isn't it ? Again, he must not have a problem with it because he rented them a table in the first place.
Let's say you don't agree with him renting the space to them, so you protest. Now YOU are the one that is bringing this issue to the attention of the public. You are also attempting to interfere with the show and everyone in it. You are attempting to force your beliefs on other people. You consider your veiwpoint to be so important that if anyone doesn't want to listen to you, you will make them listen to you.
This is just beating a dead horse at this point, but I don't understand why you can't disagree with people and just go on about your business ? Why does our opposition have to be made into a big issue ? Why do you feel that you are so important that everyone MUST do as you say or you are going to see that they do ? Can't you just pass that table by and go on about your business. Why can't everyone else leave everyone else alone ?
Yeah, but we get into the slippery slope argument again. What about books on knives ? What about books on collecting Nazi stuff ? What about books on collecting any other non-gun subject ? What about WWII fighter plane books ? Can we then ban any book we don't agree with ? What about books people complain about ? What if the books they complain about are in fact about guns ? ................................... It never stops.
The show promoter certainly can decide if he wants to rent them a table but if he DOES rent them a table then where do you get off talking about banning them from the show ? It is his decision isn't it ? Again, he must not have a problem with it because he rented them a table in the first place.
Let's say you don't agree with him renting the space to them, so you protest. Now YOU are the one that is bringing this issue to the attention of the public. You are also attempting to interfere with the show and everyone in it. You are attempting to force your beliefs on other people. You consider your veiwpoint to be so important that if anyone doesn't want to listen to you, you will make them listen to you.
This is just beating a dead horse at this point, but I don't understand why you can't disagree with people and just go on about your business ? Why does our opposition have to be made into a big issue ? Why do you feel that you are so important that everyone MUST do as you say or you are going to see that they do ? Can't you just pass that table by and go on about your business. Why can't everyone else leave everyone else alone ?
OP
OP
StrikeFire83
Member
444
When you've met folks with barcodes on their forearms, who still bear the psychological and physical scars of concentration camps, then you MIGHT begin to understand why there are those of us who would appose Nazism and its latter day evolution at every turn.
Forcing people to keep quiet it not one of my goals. But if a person uses his 1st Amendment rights to spew vile, genocidal, hate-filled invective, then you’re a fool if you think I'm just going to stand there and take it.
gwalchmai
Member
Fair enough. What IS your goal? What would you like to see accomplished if you could wave your hand and have your wish?
ETA: Sorry, I went back to your OP.
OK. I agree. Who are these people who are making these accusations?
If he wants. Pass him by if you don't like it. Laugh at him for good measure.Yep. Along with the idiots who sell shirts with the commie Che Guevara on them. Pass them by too if you don't like it. Come on: we all resist the urge to hit them--you can too.
Yuck!
But yes again. And um...pass them by if you don't like it.There, that was easy! We didn't give any of the people we don't agree with our attention or our money, and yet liberty still reigns supreme! Aren't we great?
...oh, wait. You mean you don't want liberty to reign? Sorry, bub. This is America: where even the rights of idiots and hate mongers are protected.
Oh, please. He never said he doesn't oppose it. "Straw man" is a huge understatement here.
He never said anything about anyone keeping quiet. You're missing the point. He--like other liberty-minded people--want the right to free speech and commerce preserved for everyone, not just people who are generally accepted by the mainstream as "normal."
gwalchmai
Member
Aslo, there are a LOT of publications out there I disagree with. If I have to decry them all I won't have time to do much else.
HankB
Member
Had a brief conversation with him once. I was walking down a street in Chicago around 25 or 30 years ago - probably somewhere around 67th & Kedzie - when I encountered a couple of guys (being carefully watched by police) on a street corner who were trying to pass out Nazi literature.Deanimator said:
Frank Collin himself - an unimpressive little dude with a pimply complexion - approached me and said words to the effect of "DO you know how the N*****s and Jews are ruining this country?"
MY response was "F*** you, Nazi!" and I kept walking.
He didn't even blink - I guess he was getting a lot of the same reaction - and moved on to the next passerby.
" But if a person uses his 1st Amendment rights to spew vile, genocidal, hate-filled invective, then you’re a fool if you think I'm just going to stand there and take it."
Well, I am a fool for even being in this discussion, so humor me.
If you arn't going to stand there and take it, what exactly are you going to do about it ?
Well, I am a fool for even being in this discussion, so humor me.
If you arn't going to stand there and take it, what exactly are you going to do about it ?
mike101
Member
.444
We didn't fight and win a war against people who collect knives. They can sell their books at gunshows. Are we clear, now?
I'd love some WWII vets to chime in on this one.
We didn't fight and win a war against people who collect knives. They can sell their books at gunshows. Are we clear, now?
I'd love some WWII vets to chime in on this one.
Autolycus
Member
One thing to remember is that Nazi memorabilia DOES NOT EQUAL the Turner Diaries. The book is one thing and the memorabilia is another. If you want to sell the books do it at a book show or a White Power show. Not at my gunshow. The memorabilia should be at a memorabilia convention. If your going to sell authentic WW2 guns then sell them as guns and not memorabilia.
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