The Ultimate Combat Round

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I was thinking that, in addition to supporting a longer ogive, stub fins could be used as groove followers in small arms.

It's quite possible to get away with six or eight grooves in small arms, and if the barrel was polygonal, the stubs could be quite modest, triangular embossments used to fill up the barrel. As long as the stubs were pointed at the front and there was a bit of play in the extractor, they would tend to align themselves to the rifling as the round was chambered; provided that the barrel was rifled all the way to the throat without any freebore.
 
I'll admit I've only read about 1/3 of this thread (it's so long!) so forgive me if this has allready been mentioned. GunTech and Nolo were discussing the pressures of telescoping bullets on page 9 and GunTech mentioned that 90% of powder is burned up before a bullet leaved the cartrige.

Why not have a two part case. Have the fast burning powder surrounded by a thin plastic tube like a straw, with one end ofer the primer flash hole (I don't know what it's called) and the bulet seated so that it goes into the other end slightly. Have the slower burning powder inbetween the plastic and the case walls. if it works Like I think it would, the primer would ignite the fast burning primer, but the plastic tube would temporarily shield the slow burning powder, giving the expanding gasses from the fast powder enough time to push the bullet into the barrel. The expanding gasses would also destroy the tube, letting the slow burning powder be ignited. The tube would probobly burn up in the proscess. This way there is sufficient room for the gasses from the slow burning powder to expand from a smaller case. The trick would be getting the composition and construction of the plastic tube to be just right so it would break, but not too early, not untill pressures had reached high enough pressure to bush the bullet out of the case.

It probobly wouldn't work for some reason or another (I'm no engieneer and the only reloading I've ever done was helping my dad reload shotgun shells when I was little). But I had the idea so I figured I'd share it.

By the way this is an amazing thread.
 
Two-stage ignition is a normal way of getting telescoped ammo to work. You can see how it works in this picture of the sectioned Hughes Lockless (from the Ammunition Photo Gallery on my website):

HMGexp.jpg
 
Would there be any way to have chamber geometry such that the chamber is still sealed, but is much larger than the cartridge as a way to keep the pressure down?

Alas, I've forgotten too much geometry to calculate the improvements in geometrical efficiency that trounds would allow over conventional, circular cross sectioned rounds in a two-column magazine. The square cross sectioned caseless rounds the G11 used offered about a 30% increase though, and that's before accounting for the fact that they were caseless! A pity that it looked like such a pain to reload that silly thing. I'll have to do some figuring.

Mr. Williams, any ideas on using bullets with pre-engraved rifling or some such other trick to cut back chamber pressures? Are there significant gains to be had?
 
anything between the 6.5 and 7.62 range is what would be best.

I think they could also get away with making something smaller than 6.5 yet bigger than 5.56 and have it be more effective than both rounds, but of course that requires alot of physics and design power that I cannot do.
 
OK, I figured it out:

magazinegeometricefficiency.jpg

In a single-column magazine A, there is some wasted space around each cartridge; indicated in tactical pink. Since a square-cross sectioned cartridge would be occupying that space, it will be more geometrically efficient. Since the area of a circle is PiR^2, and that of a square with side length L equal to 2R is 4R^2, and Pi is about 3, we can say that cartridges with a circular cross section have about 75% the geometrical efficiency of square cartridges, or alternatively that square cartridges represent a 33% increase in geometric efficiency over circular-cross sectioned cartridges in a single-column magazine.

Since the G11's cartridges were not only square in cross section, but also caseless and telescoped, they represented an enormous improvement geometric efficiency versus round cartridges in a single column magazine. Since the G11's 4.7mm round was of somewhat questionable hitting power, modern assault rifles don't use single column magazines, and the entire G11 exercise had significant practical difficulties discussed earlier in this thread, the significance of this advantage is debatable. As it stood, the G11 had a magazine with 50% more capacity than typical assault rifles; not bad, but not going to set the world on fire.

In a double-column magazine, however, the wasted volume is much larger, as is illustrated in B. The exact percentage of volume that each magazine devotes to cartridge and to air depends on the inside width of the magazine and the case diameter of the cartridges. Calculate the area of each triangle, indicated in red:

magazinetroundgeometricefficiency.jpg

and divide that area by the incircle of that triangle, which approximates the shape of the rounds.

In the case of trounds (by which I mean any round with a triangular cross section, not just the ones that were historically developed), the rounds will approximate equilateral triangles in cross section. The height of an equilateral triangle is approximately .86 of its height, and the inradius is given by 1/6(square root of 3)*side length, as per this page. Thus, the apples-to-apples comparison is to a two-column magazine with an inside width to round radius ratio of .86/.288, or the case diameter is .67 of the inside width of the magazine, which corresponds roughly with 6.8SPC feeding from STANAG magazines.

Since the triangle will have the same height as the inside width of the magazine, I get that BH/2 equals an area of .43, while the area of the cross section of the circular rounds is about .26. In other words, trounds represent a 65% increase in propellant volume, assuming that they are constructed in a similar manner to the circular rounds (which historical trounds have not). Alternatively, 65% more rounds could be packed into the same length magazine. 50 round magazine with the same length as a standard 30 rounder seems like a significant improvement to me.

And with all that icky math out of the way, I will now take a nap.
 
If you want to increase velocity without effecting peak chamber pressure, you can go to ET (electrothermal) or ETC (Electrothermal Chemical) rounds. This was covered in the book I sent you which tragically went MIA.

With current battery technology, ET and ATC guns are almost practical. Instead of a conventional propellant, and ET guns uses a plasma stimulated working fluid (like water) and an electric pulse which can match the pressure/time curve of the cartridge to that of the limit of the chamber, rather than the spike associated with chemical propellants. Hughes was demonstrating a modified M16 in the 1980s that fires an M193 projectile from a slightly modified 5.56 case with a velocity of almost 6,000 fps. Normally, the velocity of chemical weapons is limited to about 5,000 fps max due to the limit of how fast the gas can expand. Plasma stimulated working fluids don't suffer from this limit.

If that's too exotic, one might be able to modify the traveller change artillery design. The propellant is basically fixed to the base of the projectile, and functions as a rocket motor, accelerating the whole way down the barrel. This requires very specific propellant manufacture which is probably not cost effective in small arms.

If one uses self consuming cartridges (AKA caseless) you do gain some chamber volume, which will allow for more velocity for the same pressure, but that quickly becomes a case of diminishing returns.

Keep it simple.

Pick a true intermediate cartridge operating at reasonable pressure, and launch a decent bullet at reasonable velocity. You don't need anything else.

Keep in mind that 90% of all infantry rifle fire is at 300 yards or less, and the infantryman's ability to hit a target in combat drops to about zero at 500 yards.

Clearly, 308 is unnecessary, but 5.56 seem underpowered at anything over 150 yards from the stubby barrels now popular.

As noted previously, the 6.5 Grendel seems to be a move in the right direction, but with too much emphasis on 1000 yard performance vs the 7.62x51. It's own developers admit it was originally conceived as a target round.

The already mentioned 6.5x45 was meant as a compromise between 5.56x45 and 7.62x51.

6.5 is literally halfway between the tow other cartridges. Bullet weight would be about 108 gn, and velocity should be around 2750 fps - about the same as M80 ball, with a much lighter bullet. Recoil is on the upper end of manageable.

This performance is what marketing has said the 6.5 Grendel can do, but the Grendel is severely hampered by it's case - not enough taper, too short and too much shoulder angle. These problematical areas came about by relying on the 22 PPC case, which was designed to be a target cartridge.

In designing the 6.5x45, I tried to duplicate and slightly better the 6.5 Grendel performance-wise, while having a better case design - that is, one lending itself to automatic magazine and belt fed weapons and having desirable characteristics of a combat round - moderate body taper, a shallower shoulder angle, and reasonable diameter to length ratios (short rounds are note desirable in semi and auto weapons are the target user).

The AK has a well deserved reputation for reliability, and the characteristics of the M43 round certainly help that reliability. The fact the cartridge is almost conical and the chamber funnel-like help insure goo feeding, and excellent ejection after even models primary extraction. The taper does require extremely curved magazines, and is probably more than required. A little less taper makes for more manageable magazines and simpler disintegrating belt designs.

With the influx of 7.62 Czech rifles into the US, the excellent 7.62x45mm case is becoming available. It has the same head size as the Russian 7.62x39. Thanks to additional length, the case, when necked down to 6.5 still has more volume than the 6.5 Grendel, even when a fairly large case taper is used.

Because I like round numbers, I selected a case taper of 1 degree. The 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 have a taper of about 20 minutes of a degree, compared with the M43 7.62x39 with it's taper of 1.5 degrees.

Here's an image of the 6.5x45

6.5x45.jpg


I originally tried to make the round fit in the M16 magazine, but this severely limited bullet selection. OAL on 5.56x45 is 2.260. I increased the OAL to 2.500, which allowed for a very wide range of bullets. This also fits in with out 'average' concept, as this OAL is between the 2.260 OAL of the 5.56 and the 2.800 OAL of 7.62x51.

Here's a comparison of several cartridges including the 6.5x45

compare.jpg


Note the 6.5x42 is a variant of the 6.5x45 (based on the Czech 7.62x45) designed for the M16 magazine, but limited to lighter bullets only.

The advantage of the 6.5x45 is that it can accommodate lighter bullets for general infantry use, but still utilized the heavier, high BC bullets for long range DMR and sniper use. The cartridge does not generate excessive pressure, and in fact operates at a lower pressure but equal or more velocity than the 6.5 Grendel, while having a better shape for military small arms.

It does require a new platform, sitting between 223 and 308 caliber weapons. But by using a smaller diameter case, it is tilted towards the 5.56x45 family of weapons. Basically, and M16 sized weapon with an extra 0.240 inch is all that is required. Pressure is modest, at a max of 4050 barr.

The 6.5x45 is conceived as a general purpose round, replacing both 5.56x45 and 7.62x51. With heavier, modest BC bullets it will equal or even outperform 7.62x51 at long ranges. It has less power than 7.62x51 at short ranges, but outclasses 5.56x45 at all ranges. Lethality should be reasonable with a well designed bullet, and sectional density should make the 6.5 superior for barrier penetrations than the 5.56.

This is, of course, a reiteration of details already covered previously in this thread.

Basically, you can get something for nothing. More power (like the 7.62x51) means a heavier weapon and more recoil along with less ammo for the same basic load. 5.56 gives you a lighter weapon with more ammo and less recoil, but less power and a smaller lethality envelope.

6.5x45 merely splits the difference, attempting to be a good compromise all across the board.
 
Creedmore uses the 308 bolt face. You are saving zero in terms of weight since it is basically a modified 308 case. You get slightly less recoil and better BC bullets - only important if you are shooting loooong. With the 6.5x47 Lapua and the 260 Remington, I personally don't even see the point of the Creedmore. Do we need yet another 6.5 round with exactly the same performance of existing rounds?

Why bother?

The Grendel and 6.5x45 use the 0.45 bolt face. 5.56 is 0.38 and 6.8 SPC is 0.42. 308, 260, 243, etc all use the 0.47 bolt face.
 
.308 for mountain area where you need range, and .223 on flat field/close combat.

Second choise would be 7.62x39 and 5.45x39.
 
As a concession to pressure and other things, I would imagine that rounds with circular cross-sections are the most practical, but as my calculations show, there are considerable gains for deviating from it, and as the G11 shows, it is at least possible.

How much could you gain from eliminating engraving pressures and changing powder flake shape? Mr. Williams' suggestion of using a solid block of powder with an ignition channel in it, like a solid-fuel rocket, sounds workable, as does your idea of attaching the propellant block to the bullet, although that rather eliminates the possibility of bottlenecked cases, doesn't it?
 
I'm not quite sure of the practical benefits of adopting one cartridge in two different loadings (one for rifles, one for MGs), as opposed to using two different cartridges.
 
Percy, your diagram of bullet stacking only shows a semi-double stacked magazine, like a Glock 36 .45 mag or a Hi-Power .40 mag. In a true double stacked mag, there is much less wasted space.
 
308 for mountain area where you need range, and .223 on flat field/close combat.

Second choise would be 7.62x39 and 5.45x39.

I think we are postulating a single round for all apllications.

Tony, I am not sure the comment on multiple loadings was directed at me, but when I mentioned the ability to load a wide range of bullets in the same case, I was thinking more in terms of type. That is no different from having a tracer round, AP round or ball.

The advantage is that any weapon can fire any of the loadings. I would imagine that it would be more like having a single load shared between MG and rifle, but having the ability to load any round as the situation requires.

In the case of the previously mentioned 6.5x45, I was thinking in terms of 'universal' ball round in the 108gn range. You might issue a special ball for snipers using a heavier, high BC bullet (say 139gn Lapua Scenars).

Also, by designing to a longer bullet, you can alter ammunition to match the AO. If you are in built up areas with lots of automatic fire, it makes sense to stick with the standard round. If you are in open area with lots of long range shooting, then you can issue a LR round, but the weapons in use can still fire any of the ammunition. It only requires a change in sight-in to change the performance envelope of you small arms.
 
Percy, your diagram of bullet stacking only shows a semi-double stacked magazine, like a Glock 36 .45 mag or a Hi-Power .40 mag. In a true double stacked mag, there is much less wasted space.

You sure? I didn't bother doing any more icky, icky math, but I think that if you calculate the ratio of areas between a more acute isosceles triangle and its incircle, it's actually wasting more volume than the equilateral triangle I used.

It's somewhat misleading to calculate the wasted volume, however. A two-column magazine may waste more volume than a single-column magazine, but it is far, far shorter, which is usually a more important consideration.

I'm not quite sure of the practical benefits of adopting one cartridge in two different loadings (one for rifles, one for MGs), as opposed to using two different cartridges.

The Chinese seem to think it's worthwhile. While it probably only confuses logistics, it probably simplifies production.
 
The Chinese seem to think it's worthwhile.

Not really. Last I heard they are bringing back that type "xx" 7.62x54R mg back into Platoon support and taking the 5.8x42mm QJY88 down to squad support.
 
The Chinese 5.8mm light loading is for their rifles and LMGs, the heavy load for their sniper and GPMGs. In an emergency, the heavy load can be used in the rifles/LMGs, but it does stress the mechanism I believe.
 
The heavy load apparently wasn't heavy enough. Troops were said to be dissatisfied with long range performance. Therefore, qjy88 GPMG is becoming a squad weapon instead of a platoon weapon.

I never understood that decision. It's like taking an M249 using 77gr ammo and fielding it as a GPMG for up to 800 meter work. Doesn't make sense.
 
Ah. Thank you Evilmonkey.

Does anyone know why they don't just design all their weapons around the heavy load? The standard stuff seems downright underloaded; not significantly more powerful than 5.56x45, and certainly no match for 6.8 SPC.

For the Chinese, a quick and dirty fix that seems appealing would be to take the 7.62x54R, lop off the rim and about 5mm, and neck it down to 7mm. Then you'd have what M43 should have been all along.
 
You sure? I didn't bother doing any more icky, icky math, but I think that if you calculate the ratio of areas between a more acute isosceles triangle and its incircle, it's actually wasting more volume than the equilateral triangle I used.
Yeah, with a full DS mag, the rounds are touching each other far more closely than you show. widen your magazine, and scrunch those rounds up as much as you can, and then you have a true double stack magazine.
 
Yeah, with a full DS mag, the rounds are touching each other far more closely than you show. widen your magazine, and scrunch those rounds up as much as you can, and then you have a true double stack magazine.

You realize that this otherwise reasonable-sounding request is forcing me to do math, don't you?

OK, here goes:

magazinegeometrictwocolumnefficienc.jpg


A two-column magazine works as long as W<2D, otherwise there is no order the rounds will feed in, and they will feed two at a time. For a generous reliability margin, it's probably advisable to keep W significantly less than 2D.

Each round approximates an irregular pentagon (THANKS A LOT! NOW LOOK AT THE SORT OF COMPUTATIONS I WILL HAVE TO DO!), indicated in tactical pink.

Here's a close up:

magazinegeometrictwocolumneffici-1.jpg

Alright, let's define some points.

Point "A" shall be the center of an arbitrarily chosen round. Point "B" shall be the intersection of the circumference of the arbitrarily chosen round and another round. Point "C" shall be vertex of the smallest angle of the irregular pentagon approximated by each round.

Triangle ABC shall be formed by the lines connecting those points. Sides A B and C shall be those sides opposite each of the so named vertex.

W shall be the inside width of the magazine, as above.

Angle A is determined by the ratio between W and R. Again, for a functional magazine, W<4R and W>2R otherwise you have two independent single columns of rounds or you don't have a big enough magazine, respectively.

If W=4R then angle A=0 degrees. If W=2R then A=90 degrees and the magazine is single-column.

We know that Angle B is a right angle because it is formed by the tangent line of a circle and the radius therefrom at the intersection of the circumference. Thus, the cosine of angle A equals R/B, or C/B if you like. Cosine of A at zero equals 1, which is corresponds to W=4R. Cosine of 90 equals zero, which is corresponds to W=2R.

So, [(W/R)/2]-1=cosine A, although we are interested primarily in W/R ratios or ~3.4 and up, because at less than that value (a 45 degree angle for A) the pentagonal stacking is not exhibited and my earlier triangular approximation is appropriate.

Equivalently, then, cos^-1 (W/2R-1)=A

For simplicity, assume R is one and replace actual width W with W/R ratio W*.

In that case cos^-1 (W*/2-1)=A

And length A=tangent A.

I'll bother with a general formula later, but let's take W*=3.8. A=25.8 degrees and length A= .48. I get an area for the pink triangle of .359 plus an area for the green rectangle of 5.8.

Since R is 1, I get an overall geometric efficiency of about 50%. I'll check the number later when I do a general formula later. If anyone asks me to account for cartridge shoulder and neck I swear that I can't be held accountable for my actions.

Gotta scoot now though.
 
I appreciate your work, Percy.
I suppose we can all agree that shaped cartridges will, of course, be more space-efficient. However, they are less efficient in other ways, like (classic) production costs and pressure.
However, new materials technology could make both of those points moot.
Also, having a cartridge with a non-symmetrical (over all axes, i.e., it's not a cylinder) shape can make loading and extraction difficult. Of course, if you're talking caseless, then there is no extraction.
 
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