The Ultimate Combat Round

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Packing density in a double column magazine is dependent upon the ratio of the inner width to the round diameter, but aside from that, the rounds will never approximate hexagons to the same packing density as in the example you posted.

Excepting exotic magazine geometries, there will be two columns. Look at the outside of the hexagonal circle pack. See the big gaps? Magazine walls are straight, so you will have those spaces. Indeed, even if we expand the magazine width to the point that each round it touching the round immediately under and above it, those gaps will still exist.
 
I would like to introduce a few things I've been working on:
TalonRiflePrinterVersionBetterTrigg.jpg
This is the Talon rifle. It is designed for the 6.5 GunTech, and the 6.5 Diamondback, which is this cartridge:
65Diamondback.jpg
It has a base of 10mm, and a case length of 42mm. The case is exactly the .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO scaled down to 6.5mm (with a slightly shorter neck). It's designed around the 123-grain bullets, but would work fine with the 108-grain bullets. It should replicate the Grendel's performance pretty well in a 63.5 OAL package (the actual OAL for this cartridge is 60.6, but it will go just fine into a 63.5mm rifle). By the way, if you're wondering, the advantage is magazine capacity.
And here's a round also developed for the 60.6/63.5mm envelope, to .276 (6.8mm) Rhino:
276Rhinobmp.jpg
It is based heavily around the 6.8 SPC, but with more case taper and the Grendel/'x39 rim size (diameter accordingly shrunk to 10.7mm). The bullet it would shoot would be around 126-132 grains in weight, larger than the SPC's.
The last round is the most unconventional, the .216 Typhoon:
216Typhoon108-grainVLDbulletbmp.jpg
This round's case is the 5.56 NATO's shortened to 39mm. It sends a 108-grain, .224 caliber bullet at 2700-2800 f/s. This round is designed to be used with solid-fuel propellants with a channel in the center. It's OAL is 63.5mm.
I will elaborate on the Talon rifle. It is a direct-impingement system, with multiple modular systems incorporated, such as quick-change barrels, stocks, sights, calibers, etc. It's MOAL is 63.5mm, and it has an 18.5-inch barrel, as shown. It uses varied tolerances in the action to achieve both accuracy and reliability. It is fully ambidextrous, with cocking handles, mag releases, selector levers and bolt releases identical on each side. That's the jist of it.
 
I'm just out of high school (today was my last day, whooppeeee! :D), so I really couldn't tell you that. However, it wasn't I who suggested it, so I think the person that did (I wanna say it was PercyShelley) knew what they were doing.
 
This is a neat article, right out of 65Grendel.com:
The 6mm Optimum

March 17, 2004

By Stan Crist. Reprinted by permission.

During World War II, the Wehrmacht developed the first assault rifle to be issued on a large scale. The StG44 was chambered for the 7.92x33mm round, a cartridge of lesser power and more compact size than that fired by the standard infantry rifle. Because studies had shown that most infantry combat occurred at relatively short engagement distances, it was deemed needlessly wasteful to continue using the heavier, bulkier ammunition.

In contrast, when Germany’s paratroopers undertook the development of the FG42 — the world’s first practical, select-fire, battle rifle — they chose to use the full-power, 7.92x57mm service cartridge. Because they had been outranged by British riflemen and machine gunners during the early stages of the 1941 airborne assault on Crete, the paratroopers reasoned that it was decidedly better to have long-range capability and not need it, than to desperately need it and not have it!

After WWII, these opposing philosophies appeared again, during the effort by NATO countries to adopt a standard rifle cartridge. One faction advocated the .280 British assault rifle round, while the U.S. Army wanted to retain the range and power of the .30 caliber cartridge then in use. As the most influential member of NATO, the United States got its way, and the 7.62x51mm round became NATO-standard shortly after the end of the Korean War.

Another reason the U.S. preferred full-power ammunition was to simplify logistics. The Army had fought WWII and the Korean conflict with a wide variety of small arms, chambered for two different calibers. The standard .30 caliber cartridge was used in the M1 infantry rifle, M1D sniper rifle, M1918A2 Browning automatic rifle, M1917A1, M1919A4 and M1919A6 machine guns, while the .30 Carbine round was fired in the M1, M1A1, M2 and M3 carbines. The Army wanted to replace this menagerie with only two basic weapons — a rifle and a general purpose machine gun — and one caliber of ammunition.

Sadly, this very worthwhile objective was doomed to failure. The substantial recoil of the 7.62 NATO round caused the M14 rifle to have poor controllability in full-auto fire, even in the heavier, M14A1 automatic rifle version. And, by insisting on a full-power cartridge, the Army ensured that the M14 — which was originally intended to be a “light rifle” — would be nearly as heavy as its predecessor!

The weight factor, perhaps more than any other, sealed the M14’s fate. In the early 1960s, the Air Force — which had previously refused to adopt the M14 — purchased the AR15, a rifle that was almost as delightfully lightweight as the obsolescent carbines then in its inventory. Not long after that, the Secretary of Defense directed the Army to also buy the AR15 (subsequently dubbed the M16A1), and discontinue acquisition of M14 rifles, thereby forcing the Army back into a two-caliber system.

Could the Army have taken a course that would have avoided a two-caliber system? Clearly, not by sticking to the demand for a full-power 7.62mm round. As the British had correctly noted, the power of the ammunition determines the size and weight of both the cartridge and the weapon. Nor could it have been avoided by adopting the .280 British caliber. Every nation that has issued assault rifles to its armed forces has found it necessary to also retain a full-power cartridge in the inventory for use in machine guns and sniper rifles.

Considering the difficulties involved, is a one-caliber family of small arms any longer an achievable goal? To answer that question requires a look at the desired characteristics of the infantry rifle, the machine gun, and the sniper rifle:

Infantry rifle: The weapon and ammunition should weigh as little as possible, consistent with a maximum effective range of at least 500 meters.

Machine gun: Same weight considerations as for the infantry rifle, but with maximum effective range of 1100-1200 meters. Ball ammunition should be able to defeat “hard” targets at least as well as 7.62 NATO rounds. Tracers should be visible to over 800 meters during daylight.

Sniper rifle: Weight of weapon and ammunition is not as important as accuracy and effective range, which should be greater than 800 meters, with a flat trajectory.

Of the above characteristics, the sniper’s need for a flat trajectory and short time-of-flight to the target would seem to be the most critical, so that is the logical start point in designing the optimum small arms cartridge. In order to achieve a flat trajectory, the bullet must have a very streamlined shape and be propelled at fairly high velocity.

A bullet’s shape can be judged by its “ballistic coefficient” (BC) — the larger the BC, the more streamlined the projectile. For instance, the Navy .300 Winchester Magnum load has a 190-grain bullet with a BC of 0.54, whereas the projectile of the 7.62mm M80 Ball round is only about 0.42. The .300 Win Mag’s high BC, combined with a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps, produces a very flat trajectory and short flight time. To incorporate these characteristics into the optimum cartridge will mandate the use of a bullet with a similarly high BC.

In order to achieve the penetration capability needed by the machine gun, projectile weight will have to be substantially heavier than the 62 grains of 5.56mm M855 Ball. At the same time, it must also weigh less than the 147 grains of 7.62mm M80 Ball in order to minimize the infantryman’s load. A bullet weight of about 100 grains seems like a reasonable, if intuitive, compromise.

Without resorting to exotic, expensive materials like tungsten or depleted-uranium, a 100-grain bullet with a BC of 0.54 will have to be made in 6mm caliber. 6.5mm and 7mm projectiles of this weight have inadequate BCs, while technical factors prohibit the use of such heavy, lead-core bullets in 5.56mm. A 100-grain, 6mm projectile that is launched at close to 3000 fps would have not only the flat trajectory of the .300 Win Mag, but it should also have penetration capability on a par with 7.62 NATO. The photo below shows the 6mm Optimum projectile flanked by 5.56mm NATO and 7.62mm NATO, then the three with cartridges.

6mmopt323x263.jpg

Another benefit of 6mm ammunition is improved tracer performance. The 6mm XM734 round, developed in the 1970s at Frankford Arsenal, reportedly produced a trace that was visible in daylight to 1000 meters. That is better than either 5.56mm or 7.62mm tracer performance!

The cartridge case for the 6mm Optimum would naturally have to be larger than that of 5.56 NATO, but it would also be significantly smaller than 7.62 NATO. To minimize cartridge case volume, muzzle velocity might have to be limited to perhaps 2900-2950 fps, but this should still produce exceptional performance. In essence, it would be a magnum version of the 6mm XM732 Ball round made for the squad automatic weapon program in the 1970s.

The Army had a logistically sound idea in trying to create a one-caliber, two-weapon, small arms system. Unfortunately, the wrong caliber was chosen, and a golden opportunity was lost. By insisting on developing the best 7.62mm cartridge, rather than the best possible cartridge, the logistical situation of today is at least as complex as it was in the 1940s, with the 5.56x45mm cartridge for use in the M16A2 rifle, M4 and M4A1 carbines, and M249 light machine gun, while the 7.62x51mm round is fired in the M21 and M24 sniper rifles, and the M60, M240B, and M240G medium machine guns.

One caliber can do it all. By sending a 100-grain, very low drag bullet downrange at over 2900 feet per second, the 6mm Optimum would provide snipers with the flat trajectory of the .300 Winchester Magnum. It would give machine gunners the penetration potential and tracer capability of 7.62 NATO, thereby permitting the development of an infantry machine gun that is light enough to replace both the 7.62mm medium machine gun and the 5.56mm squad automatic weapon. And, by virtue of being a compact, lightweight cartridge, with low recoil impulse, it should also allow the creation of a combat rifle that is little or no heavier than the M16A2.

The 6mm Optimum combines the best features of several existing cartridges into a compact, lightweight round that should be capable of all around performance unequaled by any other caliber. If the future brings about another quest for a single caliber common to the infantry rifle and machine gun, let the 6mm Optimum be the one for all!
I'd like to hear your comments on this, especially those of GunTech, Tony Williams, PercyShelley and EvilMonkey.
 
Toss up between the .260 Remmington( yeah , I know others have mentioned it)....and the 6.5 Creedmore appears to have some interesting potential.
Any thoughts here to a wildcat;maybe a short cased 8mm,like that old project the Marine Corps had involving a 7.62 NATO necked up to 8mm??
 
You can play caliber talk all you want, at the end of the day, the .308 wins.
Not after you have to lug 400-600 rounds of it around on your back plus a 26-pound M60 all day, it doesn't.
 
Okay the here is a picture of the magazine lying at a odd angle.
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If one takes a slice one round high, then we need to figure out the width of the magazine. We know the triangle in the middle is a equilateral triangle. So we can a a radius of R for to get to the center of each bullet, and a square root of 3 for the height of the triangle for a magazine width of 3.73 and a height of 2 and a area 7.46
There are 2 circle in this space having a area of 2 pi R squared. this gives me a percentage 84% covered.
 

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For a Battle Rifle:
-The round must have an effective range of at least 700 meters.
-The round must be able to pierce CRISAT body armor at 400 meters.
For a Battle Rifle:
-The round must have an effective range of at least 700 meters.
-The round must be able to pierce CRISAT body armor at 400 meters.
-20 rounds of this type must weigh no more than 20 rounds of .30-06 (.06 pounds per round).
-The round must have recoil no greater than that of a .30-06.
-The round must be able to produce no less than 2500 ft-lbs of energy from an 18-inch barrel.

a necked down 30-06 to shoot a 6.5 bullet with fast burning powder will do the trick
 
Or there's the 6.5x55, which was introduced as a military calibre over a century ago.

Can we really do no better than this?
 
I am just chiming into this thread for the first time here, but I agree:

7.62 x 51 NATO is the best combat round.


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Something like the 6.5 grendel or the conceptual 6.5x47.....

....-ish.

Someone said .250-3000 Savage - that's a good choice as well.

The sweet spot of calibers starts at 6.0mm and goes to 6.5mm. In between those two are the .25 calibers. The round should utilize one of those 3 calibers to maximize the velocity/size/BC tradeoffs (.243, .257, or .264). Arguably, .25 cal is THE sweet spot.
 
There's a lot of people who read the title and go ahead and post, I really hate that. I understand that it's a long read, but the past three or four pages are all that you really need to read, and I would appreciate it a lot. Posting that your pet cartridge is the best combat round is just annoying. I'd appreciate more constructive comments and criticism, so if you have anything interesting or neat to add, then read a bit and post, but if you're just going to post that 7.62 NATO is the best combat cartridge, then save your energy.
Respectfully,
-Nolo
 
Now, another weapon I've been turning my eye towards is the light carbine. For a weapon such as this, the rim shouldn't be any bigger than 10mm, and this 9.6mm rim of the .223 is ideal. But I wanted to replicate 7.62x51 ballistics. Lo and behold, while doing research in my archives on my computer, I remembered the forgotten 5.56 replacement, the 6.5 MPC. This cartridge, according to SSK, will do 2750 f/s out of a 20-inch barrel with a 108-grain SMK (Or is it Scenar..?). The 108 has as as good or better BC than the 147-grain NATO bullet, and this cartridge pushes it out at the same speed from the same barrel. So it seems to be the perfect cartridge for a handy, fast carbine, should one want to go down that route.
 
If you are interested in long range potential, 6mm, 6.5 and 7mm all tend to have better BC for weight than 308 bullets. There is a reason that 6.5 has come to dominate LR shooting, with a mix of 6mm and a smatter in of 7mm.

The problem is that whatever you are going to do is going to be a compromise. Everyone wants a long range, powerful, low recoiling light cartridge, but you only get to pick a couple of those attributes.

You really need to define what role of the cartridge is going to be.

If the cartridge is going to weigh the same as the 30-06 why bother with a new cartridge that is only going to have an incremental advantage over the existing cartridge.

If you are looking at a military round, here are some thing to consider, along with other basic criteria for general cartridge design.

The round should have a moderate body taper and shoulder angle to facilitate feeding reliability.

Neck length should be around bullet diameter.

The bullet should not intrude into the case by a large percentage

Going on from that, look at case weight and keep in mind the Hall report: A smaller caliber bullet can be as lethal as a heavier bullet at combat ranged if driven at sufficient velocity, while weighing much less, allowing the soldier to carry more ammunition for the same combat load.

Will this be a universal round? If not, what is wrong with the existing two-tiered system (5.56x45 and 7.72x51). Keep in mind that the decision about things like ammo selection are made by bean counters, so there needs to be a strong rationale for change. Think about the fate of the 276 Pedersen.

If you are considering a universal round, to cover both the rifle/carbine and LMG/GPMG, there is already a lot of research to call on. The ideal all purpose round seems to be something that will launch a 6-7mm projectile at about 2700 fps. This gives adequate combat range , good lethality and controllability under automatic fire in a relatively compact and efficient package.

I'm not sure why you are designing a new cartridge and looking at design specs from 20 year ago. The ability to penetrate CRISAT armor is meaningless, since modern body armors can defeat 30-06 AP rounds at near contact distances. If you are really concerned about defeating armor, you need to set you requirements for what's in the field now, and what's likely to appear in the next 10-20 years. There's no sense having an armor piercing capability that is obsolete from the get-go. And you probably want something that can penetrate armor and still have some lethality. The 5.7 can penetrate armor, but has so little energy left, it's highly questionable if it even effective.

On the other hand, given the likelihood of increased counter-insurgency operations is 3rd world nations, the armor piercing capability is probably overstated. Barrier penetration is probably much more of a concern - whether that be thick mud walls, vehicles, etc.

Lastly, it should be understood that in the grand scheme of battle, small arms play a rather insignificant role. Casualties caused by small arms are generally 1-2 percent of all casualties (artillery and air power are the real killers) even if you double the effectiveness of the rifle, it will have little effect on the 'bottom line'. Buying more HE shells for you big guns probably gives you better value for you money, and wars are won on logistics.

The 6.8 and 6.5 Grendel went exactly nowhere when it came to military adoption, and both were clearly superior in many respects to the 5.56.

Any change in cartridge is going to be due to radical technology shifts like caseless cartridges, and not a minor and incremental improvement in some conventional round.

If you want to find some success in cartridge design, there's really only the civilian market, and only a fraction of new rounds succeed. Those need either a big advertising campaign are some compelling feature that separates them from the pack.
 
The 25 calibers have their proponents, but there is a lack of good high BC bullets, and the quarterbore seems not to have that mystical combination of sectional density and shape that favors the 6, 6.5 and 7mm bullets.

The trick here is efficiency. 6.5 Grendel and 6mmAR are very efficient rounds, hampered by a poor case - poor only in the sense of select fire weapons. The very characteristics that make them good match rounds - short, fat and with a steep shoulder angle, make them less than idea for select fire weapons.

For a select fire weapon, you are looking for a moderate shoulder, good case taper and a higher length to diameter ratio. The 6.8x43 comes close, although the selection of light 0.277 bullets restricts this round to shorter ranges.
 
6.5 MPC seems to be really good for something like an M4. I'm really looking into a small carbine in the spirit of the M1 Carbine.
 
Auburn, the problem is that 7mm-08 and 243 still require a full sized rifle, and have similar, though lesser recoil issues as 308. The problem is that most shooter thing in terms of the range, with their bolt or semi rifles. They don't consider the controllability under full automatic fire because they thing combat is the target range.

When folks are shooting at you, it's a very different proposition, and the vast majority of fire is in the direction of where you thing someone might bee, just to fix their position and keep them from shooting you and your buddies. I even read a lot of talk about precision US marksmanship, when the reality is that hundreds of thousands of rounds are expended for a few enemy casualties.

Ultimately, that means that you need to be able to carry lots and lots of ammo, and you need to be able to at least pretend to direct it at where the bad guys are, even under rapid or automatic fire.

243 and even 7mm-08 are note even really efficient cases. You can get more than 90% of the performance in a case that is almost half the size - and do it with pressures that are appropriate for light automatic weapons.
 
243 and even 7mm-08 are note even really efficient cases. You can get more than 90% of the performance in a case that is almost half the size - and do it with pressures that are appropriate for light automatic weapons.


Whoah! What now?

I didn't think that cartridge dimensions could have nearly that magnitude of change on efficiency!
 
There's a lot of people who read the title and go ahead and post, I really hate that. I understand that it's a long read, but the past three or four pages are all that you really need to read, and I would appreciate it a lot

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. A question is asked, and yes people on THR can respond to the original post. Not everyone is going to sit on the edge of their seat for 17 or 18 pages and read through the thread... and follow every development and twist.

*It actually is back on you to skip over posts you don't want to read, and I'm sure they would be easy to spot. So... save your energy and skip over them. ;)
 
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