oldfool
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the secret of true happiness is learning that you really don't have to know EVERYTHING 
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Those of you who feel a .380 is underpowered for ccw, would you carry a 9X18?
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christcorp
Member
No, I just can't go for this. As mentioned earlier by many other people, the most powerful and highest capacity handgun I can handle, definitely isn't practical for concealing. So, that weapon would be a terrible choice. Next, I never use magazine capacity in my decision making. I believe in practice and hitting what you aim at. As so many have said, what one person considers important, isn't so important to another. Saying to get the highest capacity gun you can, means you would discount every revolver, and the vast majority of 7-8 round semi-auto's. It implies that basically, you are suppose to be only looking at 40sw glocks/springfields, etc... No, that just doesn't work for me.Standards can really be boiled down a lot farther than most people bother.
Just get the most powerful and highest capacity gun that you can
1. Control the recoil of well enough to do accurate double-taps
2. Keep concealed on your person 24/7 if necessary
3. Afford the gun itself
4. Afford enough ammo to practice with regularly
5. Have confidence in
Most arguments in these things stem from failure to realize that all 5 arms of the scale will balance differently for every person.
Should a frail old granny choose a .44 magnum that she can barely lift, can't pull the trigger, and if she manages to cock the hammer for a single action shot, the recoil makes it fly out of her hand? Or should she prioritize more realistically and get something more like a PPK-sized .32 (but one with a light polymer or aluminum frame and the ability to be carried cocked-and-locked, if such a thing even exists)? We aren't all big tough internet commandos with bulging forearms.
Should a really poor person save up for 3 years to get a $650 Kahr, or are they fine saving for just 1 year to get a $150 PA-63? We aren't all rich, either.
In my case, I'm healthy and wealthy (and wise
For me, self defense guns need to fit my hands and shooting style very comfortably. I need to be able to conceal them extremely well, and be very comfortable carrying them. For me, they have to have either double action capability, or a means of manually decocking them. I don't carry any striker fired pistols for self defense, with one exception. (That's a totally different topic). And as I mentioned earlier, when it comes to ammunition, I want a caliber that penetrates on average of 10-12". I have hollow point and FMJ ammo for 32, 380, 9mm mak, 9mm, 357 mag, and 45acp that fit this criteria. These are also my main pistols. Which gun I choose, depends on the environment. If it's hot, summer, no coats/jackets, etc... then the 45acp is pretty much not an option. Too difficult to conceal. It will probably be on of the 9mm mak (I have more than one), or the 380 or 32acp. I have different requirements when I'm dress for a formal engagement. In the colder months, and a lot of clothing, I might not get that 10-12" penetration from the 32acp, so that's usually not my carry gun in the winter months. It's usually the 45acp or the 9mm mak with FMJ instead of HP.
So, for anyone to say one gun is a good choice and another gun is a bad choice, is a very ignorant person. It all depends on the situation and the capabilities of the person carrying that gun. And for some people, that might mean that they do in fact need or want that 15-18 round glock. For another, they may be just as proficient with a 7 round 1911A1 or 9mm makarov. And maybe I shouldn't have responded to this thread, because it was directed towards people who mistakenly believe that a 380 is under-powered. Then again, if only those people actually did the only posting, it would probably be a 3-4 post thread. I will be the first to admit that in certain environments, a 380 is probably underpowered. Like I mentioned; in the cold winter months, when people are wearing very heavy coats with sweaters and heavy shirts under that, etc... the 380 wouldn't be my first choice. But that doesn't mean that the 380 is always underpowered. But for the person who isn't fortunate to be able to own more than one gun (My opinion is you should own at least 3 pistols), then that person probably shouldn't own a 380 or 32; or possibly even a 9mm makarov (Although I believe that a CZ-82 is a great gun for carry if that's all you could afford). But the person who can only afford 1 pistol, should get a 357 magnum revolver. Then, they have the luxury of having the ballistics of every caliber discussed here; from the lowly 380, through the 9mm, through the 40sw/10mm, and through the 45acp. The 357 magnum is the BEST all around pistol for any occasion. But to say that a 380 or 32 is ALWAYS underpowered, and shouldn't be a carry caliber, is pure ignorance.
WILL THE REAL 9x18 PLEASE STAND UP
I have 2 pistols in 9x18 and they cannot interchange ammo. One is a CZ-82 in 9m.m. MAKAROV and the other is a SIG 230 in 9x18 ULTRA (aka: POLICE). I would love to see a CZ-83 or BERETTA 84 available in 9x18 ULTRA.
What this round needed was a good bullet. A REMINGTON Golden Sabre 102 grain brass hollow point at @ 1,000 feet per second would be perfect in my mind. More power than a .380ACP without the odd bullett diameter of the 9m.m. MAKAROV.
Jim
I have 2 pistols in 9x18 and they cannot interchange ammo. One is a CZ-82 in 9m.m. MAKAROV and the other is a SIG 230 in 9x18 ULTRA (aka: POLICE). I would love to see a CZ-83 or BERETTA 84 available in 9x18 ULTRA.
What this round needed was a good bullet. A REMINGTON Golden Sabre 102 grain brass hollow point at @ 1,000 feet per second would be perfect in my mind. More power than a .380ACP without the odd bullett diameter of the 9m.m. MAKAROV.
Jim
Jehzsa
Member
It's rather easy to do. Just have a gunsmith ream the chamber of those in .380. Not particularly difficult or expensive to ream an additional 1mm or less. Main problem might be to have the .380 mags work with the 9x18 Ultra cartridge. They might need adjustment. Could be major work.
Easier mod would be to convert a S&W 39, or almost any other 9mm Luger pistol, to a 9x18 Ultra. For those of us with weak wrists who can't shoot a darn with 9mm Luger and up, it's a welcome respite.
North Bender
Member
Jehzsa! The barrister returns!
Jehzsa
Member
North Bender! Hello, Sir!
How you doin'? Good to read about you again.
Not exactly a 'return', I just lurk every now and then. 99.9% of the time I have nothing to add or say to discussions. Btw, changed my e-mail address.
Take care always. Good, above-board people like you are hard to come by.
Very best to you and your loved ones...
How you doin'? Good to read about you again.
Not exactly a 'return', I just lurk every now and then. 99.9% of the time I have nothing to add or say to discussions. Btw, changed my e-mail address.
Take care always. Good, above-board people like you are hard to come by.
Very best to you and your loved ones...
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mljdeckard
Member
MC:
"Can't" and "Won't" are not the same thing.
"Can't" and "Won't" are not the same thing.
MCgunner
Member
Guess you mean putting an N frame in a pocket...never seen pockets that big and I wear carpenter's jeans. I don't belt carry in the 100 degree heat. If the gun shows, you can lose your CCW in Texas. So, I think "can't" is more appropriate than "won't" for a gun that big.
In the warmer months, I'm just not belt gun compatible. It just ain't happenin'. I reckon that's "can't" for me and "won't" for you, so be it.... I do carry a 9x19 in my pocket most times, 115 grain XTP/JHP at 1263 fps avg MV. I feel that is sufficient. I can hit well with it or I wouldn't carry it.
To me, accuracy is more important than horsepower. It is an accurate gun, though, as is any gun I will carry. That little P64 Mak is a tack driver, love that thing. If I can't hit with it, it's worthless to me. My .380 is like that, don't care for it much. But, I couldn't get anything for it f I sold it, so why not just stash it away? I ain't GIVIN' the thing away. But, it's probably accurate enough for self defense at realistic self defense ranges, just not as accurate and in a low power round to boot. At least it has firepower, 11+1 rounds on tap.
Too each his own, if you feel .45ACP is so much better, that you HAVE to find a way to carry the thing no matter what a PAIN it is to carry, knock yourself out. The one time I've EVER had to defend myself against another human, he had a knife and I had a .25 ACP in my pocket. He ran, I never had to even shoot. I feel a lot better about .380 or 9x18 than I do .25ACP. Now days, one doesn't really have to settle for a .25. Carrying was illegal in Texas back then and I didn't want to get caught armed by the law. That might not be too high road, but it did save my butt.
In the warmer months, I'm just not belt gun compatible. It just ain't happenin'. I reckon that's "can't" for me and "won't" for you, so be it....
I do carry a 9x19 in my pocket most times, 115 grain XTP/JHP at 1263 fps avg MV. I feel that is sufficient. I can hit well with it or I wouldn't carry it. To me, accuracy is more important than horsepower. It is an accurate gun, though, as is any gun I will carry. That little P64 Mak is a tack driver, love that thing. If I can't hit with it, it's worthless to me. My .380 is like that, don't care for it much. But, I couldn't get anything for it f I sold it, so why not just stash it away? I ain't GIVIN' the thing away. But, it's probably accurate enough for self defense at realistic self defense ranges, just not as accurate and in a low power round to boot. At least it has firepower, 11+1 rounds on tap.
Too each his own, if you feel .45ACP is so much better, that you HAVE to find a way to carry the thing no matter what a PAIN it is to carry, knock yourself out. The one time I've EVER had to defend myself against another human, he had a knife and I had a .25 ACP in my pocket. He ran, I never had to even shoot. I feel a lot better about .380 or 9x18 than I do .25ACP. Now days, one doesn't really have to settle for a .25. Carrying was illegal in Texas back then and I didn't want to get caught armed by the law. That might not be too high road, but it did save my butt.
Cactus Jack Arizona
Member
I don't find the .380 to be uncapable, it's just another caliber that I'd have to buy, and I'm just not interested. I carry a Bulgarian Makarov and have never felt that I might be underpowered. The last stats I remember hearing is that more people are killed with the .22 (LR caliber I assume).
You read my thing wrong.
"Just get the most powerful and highest capacity gun that you can
1. Control the recoil of well enough to do accurate double-taps
2. Keep concealed on your person 24/7 if necessary
3. Afford the gun itself
4. Afford enough ammo to practice with regularly
5. Have confidence in"
Only after those 5 criteria are met, do stopping power and capacity come into play.
And some people value stopping power vs. capacity differently. A 6+1 shot pocket .380 is about the same size and weight as a 2 shot double action derringer in .357 magnum or .40 S&W. Which is better? Depends on the person and the circumstances.
christcorp
Member
I didn't read you wrong ryan. There are times when my SigSauer P220 45acp is the perfect gun to carry. Other times, it isn't. There are times when my CZ-82 9mm makarov chambered pistol is the better choice. Sometimes, it isn't. There are times when my 32acp or 380acp is the best choice to carry. Sometimes, it isn't.
The ONLY time that this discussion has ANY debate or usefulness is when:
1) The person who is buying a gun can NOT afford to have more than one gun. In this case, the best ALL AROUND pistol is the 357 magnum. It can be loaded as light or as hot as the individual can handle. But for the person who doesn't trust their capabilities, or has been convinced somehow that you need a LOT OF BULLETS, or if they simply really prefer a semi-auto over a revolver, then I'd recommend a 9mm. If you could only afford one pistol, the 9mm will do it for you for most all around use. Plus, if you can't afford more than one pistol, the cost of ammunition is probably going to be an issue. In which case, the 9mm is about the cheapest of the higher calibers.
2) The other time this discussion has any passion is when for whatever reason, people have to rationalize or justify the caliber and gun they own. People don't ever want to admit that they might be wrong. Especially if they spent a lot of money doing it. Throughout our modern history, people have bought many things because they were in vogue. Many people bought the 9mm pistols originally, because they were the new hottest thing. Same with buying glocks. "The mystique of a Plastic Gun". The truth is, many of these people bought the WRONG GUN. Am I saying that a glock is the wrong gun? Or that the 9mm is the WRONG gun. Not at all. Just that it could very well be the wrong gun for that individual person.
And that's where the problem lies. Whenever I read a person post that a particular caliber or gun is the best, I already know that that person knows very little about what they talk about. But that's ok. I have peers who are electronic engineers who don't know what they're talking about either. With the exception of the 357 magnum revolver, because it can be loaded as light as a 380 or as heavy as the 41 magnum, and EVERYTHING in between; caliber and gun is a totally personal thing. And any suggestion on what IS or ISN'T a good caliber is pure B.S.
Now Ryan, you actually weren't advocating a certain caliber. And that's good. Unfortunately, your post was implying to some that you should get the most powerful and largest capacity that you can. Sorry, but capacity means absolutely nothing to me. I have no problem at all carrying a 5 shot pistol. Yes, I can carry and handle a 19 round 40sw or 9mm. But I don't WANT TO. So why should I.
ALL pistols are a compromise. On the other hand, ALL PISTOLS are simply a tool. When people realize that, and stop putting faith in the gun as the thing that's going to save their life, people will get the gun and caliber that is best for them. And it doesn't have to be the most powerful and highest capacity that they can handle, afford, and conceal. There is literally no gun or caliber that I know of that I can't afford or handle. (Yes, there are some BAR (Big A$s Revolvers) that can't be concealed. But just because I can afford and handle them, doesn't mean I should have one. I pick the guns and calibers I like. And I have a very large range of both. From 22LR to 460S&W. And for me, I have different guns and different calibers for different situations.
I've already laid out a number of times certain guns and calibers for different uses. And when those guns calibers aren't appropriate for certain uses, I have others. Unfortunately, the people who like to slam the caliber and gun topics, are the ones who believe that there are some overall MINIMUM CALIBER that you should never go below. These people are ignorant. They do not know what they are talking about. And it's really funny when some say they've been shooting for 30 years or that they use to be a police officer or in the military. Sorry, but that doesn't mean they are correct. They aren't. Even if we use the 357 magnum revolver as an example, being it can emulate every caliber from 380 to 41 magnum, that doesn't mean that you simply load it with 200 grain LFN Buffalo Bore ammo 24/7 for self defense. At the same time, you can't simply load it with 110 grain 38spl NON-+p all the time either. You have to find what works BEST for you. BEST doesn't mean the MOST you can handle. And it doesn't mean it has to handle 15 rounds either. A 5 shot revolver even in 44 magnum might be the best. On the other hand, that same 6 foot 250 lb guy might really only WANT a 32acp.
If the person becomes proficient with their gun and ammo; and they have MENTALLY prepared themselves the best they can; and they've trained themselves to use muscle memory so their fear and conscience doesn't get in the way; and they train themselves to rapid fire 3 shots while assessing the situation and NOT shooting 1 time and deciding whether to continue or not; then that person can and will be just as efficient with the 32acp (In the right situation) as they would have been with a 9mm or 40sw. Remember, the objective is to stop the threat. Death of the assailant is a secondary issue. But as I mentioned numerous times, there are times when the 32acp is NOT the right choice. There are times when the 45acp is not Practical. I don't adapt ME to the gun. I adapt my guns to ME. The only difficult answer to the "What gun/caliber should get" type questions, is when the person can only have 1 gun. If they can afford more than one, then get different guns/calibers for different uses. Then you don't have to "MISS OUT ON LIFE" because you can't find a way to conceal your 45acp or your 40SW. Or, you aren't under-gunned in the middle of winter when everyone is wearing 3 layers of clothers and a heavy coat. Recommending a gun for a person when it's their only one is tough. Trying to recommend a caliber and gun for a person who HAS or WILL HAVE more than one gun is ignorant.
The ONLY time that this discussion has ANY debate or usefulness is when:
1) The person who is buying a gun can NOT afford to have more than one gun. In this case, the best ALL AROUND pistol is the 357 magnum. It can be loaded as light or as hot as the individual can handle. But for the person who doesn't trust their capabilities, or has been convinced somehow that you need a LOT OF BULLETS, or if they simply really prefer a semi-auto over a revolver, then I'd recommend a 9mm. If you could only afford one pistol, the 9mm will do it for you for most all around use. Plus, if you can't afford more than one pistol, the cost of ammunition is probably going to be an issue. In which case, the 9mm is about the cheapest of the higher calibers.
2) The other time this discussion has any passion is when for whatever reason, people have to rationalize or justify the caliber and gun they own. People don't ever want to admit that they might be wrong. Especially if they spent a lot of money doing it. Throughout our modern history, people have bought many things because they were in vogue. Many people bought the 9mm pistols originally, because they were the new hottest thing. Same with buying glocks. "The mystique of a Plastic Gun". The truth is, many of these people bought the WRONG GUN. Am I saying that a glock is the wrong gun? Or that the 9mm is the WRONG gun. Not at all. Just that it could very well be the wrong gun for that individual person.
And that's where the problem lies. Whenever I read a person post that a particular caliber or gun is the best, I already know that that person knows very little about what they talk about. But that's ok. I have peers who are electronic engineers who don't know what they're talking about either. With the exception of the 357 magnum revolver, because it can be loaded as light as a 380 or as heavy as the 41 magnum, and EVERYTHING in between; caliber and gun is a totally personal thing. And any suggestion on what IS or ISN'T a good caliber is pure B.S.
Now Ryan, you actually weren't advocating a certain caliber. And that's good. Unfortunately, your post was implying to some that you should get the most powerful and largest capacity that you can. Sorry, but capacity means absolutely nothing to me. I have no problem at all carrying a 5 shot pistol. Yes, I can carry and handle a 19 round 40sw or 9mm. But I don't WANT TO. So why should I.
ALL pistols are a compromise. On the other hand, ALL PISTOLS are simply a tool. When people realize that, and stop putting faith in the gun as the thing that's going to save their life, people will get the gun and caliber that is best for them. And it doesn't have to be the most powerful and highest capacity that they can handle, afford, and conceal. There is literally no gun or caliber that I know of that I can't afford or handle. (Yes, there are some BAR (Big A$s Revolvers) that can't be concealed. But just because I can afford and handle them, doesn't mean I should have one. I pick the guns and calibers I like. And I have a very large range of both. From 22LR to 460S&W. And for me, I have different guns and different calibers for different situations.
I've already laid out a number of times certain guns and calibers for different uses. And when those guns calibers aren't appropriate for certain uses, I have others. Unfortunately, the people who like to slam the caliber and gun topics, are the ones who believe that there are some overall MINIMUM CALIBER that you should never go below. These people are ignorant. They do not know what they are talking about. And it's really funny when some say they've been shooting for 30 years or that they use to be a police officer or in the military. Sorry, but that doesn't mean they are correct. They aren't. Even if we use the 357 magnum revolver as an example, being it can emulate every caliber from 380 to 41 magnum, that doesn't mean that you simply load it with 200 grain LFN Buffalo Bore ammo 24/7 for self defense. At the same time, you can't simply load it with 110 grain 38spl NON-+p all the time either. You have to find what works BEST for you. BEST doesn't mean the MOST you can handle. And it doesn't mean it has to handle 15 rounds either. A 5 shot revolver even in 44 magnum might be the best. On the other hand, that same 6 foot 250 lb guy might really only WANT a 32acp.
If the person becomes proficient with their gun and ammo; and they have MENTALLY prepared themselves the best they can; and they've trained themselves to use muscle memory so their fear and conscience doesn't get in the way; and they train themselves to rapid fire 3 shots while assessing the situation and NOT shooting 1 time and deciding whether to continue or not; then that person can and will be just as efficient with the 32acp (In the right situation) as they would have been with a 9mm or 40sw. Remember, the objective is to stop the threat. Death of the assailant is a secondary issue. But as I mentioned numerous times, there are times when the 32acp is NOT the right choice. There are times when the 45acp is not Practical. I don't adapt ME to the gun. I adapt my guns to ME. The only difficult answer to the "What gun/caliber should get" type questions, is when the person can only have 1 gun. If they can afford more than one, then get different guns/calibers for different uses. Then you don't have to "MISS OUT ON LIFE" because you can't find a way to conceal your 45acp or your 40SW. Or, you aren't under-gunned in the middle of winter when everyone is wearing 3 layers of clothers and a heavy coat. Recommending a gun for a person when it's their only one is tough. Trying to recommend a caliber and gun for a person who HAS or WILL HAVE more than one gun is ignorant.
Ryan advocates going with the biggest caliber and capacity that is practical. You are putting words into his mouth to further interpret that as saying 5-shot revolvers are not sufficient for carry. Perhaps you should give him the benefit of doubt and take his words to mean "larger caliber is better than smaller caliber, ALL ELSE EQUAL." And "more bullets are better than less bullets, ALL ELSE EQUAL."
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