Those of you who feel a .380 is underpowered for ccw, would you carry a 9X18?

[oldfool]

Yo, let's start a new poll
(this one being a tad frayed)

me, I think Mcgunner's post #74 deserves a Wall-of-Fame award, or at least a sticky... what say you ?


PS
not that it matters, but... though tempted by the 9x18, I am sticking with my Colt gov't model 380 acp, because for me, it is a lot less about caliber than it is about the gun that fires it and the hand that holds it, and that is one of the very few in my own hand that consistently hits where I think I am pointing it
(the others for me being 6" k-frames which are a tad bulky for IWB in cargo shorts)
I load plain vanilla grade FMJ, and carry it tube empty
I find the penetration sufficient for my perceived needs (though some ladies may disagree)

because there ain't no grizz in south Georgia
because I am such a sweet old feller that the mob don't pay no attention to me, much less put out hit contracts out on me
because I don't wear a CCW badge
because I think the odds of my having a half-wit class ND/AD are a lot higher (especially if I ever actually attempted a "fast" draw) than being charged by drug crazed machete wielding gang bangers

and... just because

 

[sonier]

wow MCgunners post is funny #74

 

[Snowdog]

Of the past few posts I've read, I think this statement contained within one of them is just about all that is needed to be said:

So, you have to have a set of standards that you can go by to make a decision.

There you go, the brass tacks of the caliber wars. This statement contains the philosophy that I personally adhere to. We may independently choose what we wish based on our individual "standards" and there really isn't much point in searching for a consensus or approval once we discover these personal standards of ours.

My standards are fairly straightforward (though they've indeed evolved dramatically from when I was a bachelor to the present day husband and father that I am now):

1) Cartridge popular with LE and Gov't agencies.
Why? To ensure ample selection and continuous supply of quality JHPs

2) A 124gr JHP at at least 1100 FPS from a 3.5" barrel (Kahr K9, my EDC).
Why? The velocity standard to assist reliable expansion, facilitating a more rapid loss of blood.

The projectile weight standard in hopes of adequate penetration, further facilitating rapid blood loss.

Why the obsession with rapid blood loss? It is my understanding that outside a direct hit to the CNS, it is blood loss which ends an aggressor's ability to fight, as a determined or drugged assailant can still pose quite a threat with a broken bone but not while he's unconscious.

Round for round, will a .380acp or 9x18 fill this role just as effectively as the 9x19? Maybe.

Does Snowdog from THR have enough confidence in the .380acp/9x18 that he will trust not only his life but the life of his wife and daughter on the performance of these rounds, as originally asked by the author of this thread?
No...they fall short of Snowdog's personal standards for this particular role (as listed above).

I find my Kahr K9 in tandem with Winchester's RA124TP fulfills my personal standards.

 

[MCgunner]

because I don't wear a CCW badge

Bwaaa, ha, ha! That one made me spill my coffee.

BTW, caffeine is my drug of choice and I bought a machete at harbor freight yesterday. Be afraid....

 

[christcorp]

Snowdog: Excellent post. You have a set of standards that you consider important. That is all that matters. It doesn't matter if i agree with those standards or not. But i most definitely can appreciate and respect your parameters. My parameters, as mentioned in my last post, in mainly based on penetration. Yours is based mainly on expansion. I can respect that. At least your decision isn't based on imaginary threats. Based on my standards, I have a lot of confidence in my 9mm mak, my 380, and my 32. (Each under CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES). You made a very good decision and very good process for making that decision.

 

[mljdeckard]

It's not that I think smaller handguns are inferior. I think ALL handguns are inferior. I just think that it is disingenuous to assume that the smallest and most convenient gun will do whatever you need it to. If David's example seems outlandish, remember that you have absolutely no idea what kind of threat you will be facing when you have to draw. I would much rather have the most powerful possible option than the one that was the easiest to carry. If you KNEW what, where, and when, you wouldn't go there at all.

The real world difference between small and large handgun cartridges may well be minimal. But I don't want to assume that a small one will do the job any more than I want to assume that nothing bad will happen to me today when I leave my house, so I'll just leave the gun at home.

Yes, I think that the 9mm is a good place to start. Why? Because I think that smaller cartridges are meant to compromise for size. Not effectiveness. Having said that, I think I have arrived at the conclusion that I need to get a Beretta 86 for my mother. She has a poorly-healed wrist injury that makes it extremely difficult for her to rack the slide on any auto besides some .22s. The tip-up barrel will make it possible for her to practically use a gun, which is indeed better than no gun at all. BUT, I did not make this decision for CONVENIENCE. I made it for NECESSITY. A .380 that she can use and practice with is certainly better than a bigger gun she can't rack at all. But I still wish there was a good tip-up in 9mm. There are now .380 defensive loads that overlap into the 9mm range, but no matter what you can do to a .380 to make it effective, you can do it to a 9mm and make it more effective still.

 

[benzy2]

There are now .380 defensive loads that overlap into the 9mm range, but no matter what you can do to a .380 to make it effective, you can do it to a 9mm and make it more effective still.

And anything 9mm can do, 40 can do better. And anything 40 can do 45 can do better. And anything 45 can do 50 can do better. I don't care where you draw your line, but to justify that round X performs better than round Y is an argument that leads to all of us holding hand cannons. We all must make our own choices as to what is enough and what isn't. But to be in the mind set that something else is a step better and we must prepare for the worst logically only leads to hand cannons or rifles.

 

[mljdeckard]

I think everyone should carry the biggest hand cannon they can shoot quickly and effectively. That might not be a .45 for everyone. But I ALSO think, that over time and training, people progress and can learn to shoot things they weren't previously able to.

 

[Stringfellow]

[deleted failed attempt at humor] I missed it the first time around, but MCGunner's post 74 is in fact a classic.

That said, I would rather have the most powerful round possible given finances, logistics, and practicality. But for me that might mean my 9x18 CZ82, and I am OK with that. [deleted attempt to make a point that came across way too snide]

 

[zxcvbob]

After reading this thread, the ONLY conclusion I can come to is that either MCGunner plagiarized some truly funny person, or that MCGunner is a heck of a writer and a truly funny person. I missed it the first time around, but MCGunner's post 74 is in fact a classic.

You noticed that he couldn't think of anything bad to say about .45 Colt?

 

[David E]

The question remains:

If you received a serious threat against your and/or your family, would you still choose a .32/.380/9x18 in your pocket as your primary gun?

If not, why not?

.

 

[mljdeckard]

No. If I had any advance warning of any kind, I would avoid the threat entirely. If this were not possible, I wouldn't grab a handgun at all. It's time to be in Rifle or Shotgunville. Deadly force should be as devastating as possible. The only reason I carry a handgun at all is that it's not feasible to carry a rifle everywhere. I do keep one in my vehicle and home whenever I am legally allowed to.

 

[benzy2]

It depends on the threat. If the threat said a gang/mob was coming to kill you/your family, I would want something with a larger capacity. I don't know of many pistols in .380 that hold 17 and if the threat sounded like it was going to be world war 3 I would want more bullets. I wouldn't fear the ability of the .380 as much as the lack or rounds. The double stack 9x18 pistols I have seen are as large as 9x19, which from the beginning, I have said if you can get 9x19 in the same package as 9x18, I would take 9x19. In this case though I wouldn't opt for .40 or .45 as round count sounds like the biggest factor if you have multiple bad guys coming for you. In the house, it would be multiple rifles/shotguns as well since I don't need to conceal in the home.

If it were a threat from a single person, say Joe Blow tells me he's going to kill me, I would carry the same .380 I do currently, though I wouldn't doubt I start carrying an extra spare mag to the one I already carry.

 

[mljdeckard]

I don't stack threats onto brackets according to what I think their level of competence is. They are either deadly threats or they aren't. And no, I will never respond to a deadly threat with 20 rounds of .380 OR .45 if I can get to 210 rounds of 5.56 or 9 rounds of 00 buck.

 

[christcorp]

I think everyone should carry the biggest hand cannon they can shoot quickly and effectively. That might not be a .45 for everyone. But I ALSO think, that over time and training, people progress and can learn to shoot things they weren't previously able to.

Well, that too is not practical. I can easily shoot a 460S&W. Should I carry it? What about a 44 magnum blackhawk. No problem shooting it. Should I carry it?

I think the problems than many, including Dave are having, is:
1) They believe that the threat potential against them is the most horrific thing imaginable. The problem with this, "You never know what could happen" paranoia, is that there will ALWAYS be a scenario with the gun of "YOUR CHOICE" will not be enough. So, just because other people aren't as "worried" about the threats, doesn't mean that you are any better prepared.

2) You believe that a gun can save your life. Sorry, but there isn't a gun on the planet that EVER saved a life. Just like guns don't kill people. PEOPLE kill PEOPLE. Well..... PEOPLE save PEOPLE. Once you realise that the gun is simply a tool, and not some magical "Dungeons and Dragons" charm that will save you, then you'll realize that it's you who will save your life.

To answer your unrealistic question David; YES, I would have no problem carrying a 9mm mak, 380, or 32. I do that now, MOST of the time. But your question is unrealistic because of the scenario. We're talking about "Self Defense", and you're talking that you're in some covert government agency and there are hit men with contracts against you and your family. (You watch way too much tv). But if I was Still in the government, and had such a viable threat against me and my family, there's a lot of other things I'd be doing to protect my family. And going to the mall or out to the Olive Garden with my pistol being the only think protecting my family, is NOT WHAT I'd BE DOING. Again, come back to reality. For the day to day REAL LIFE Situations that involve the potential of self defense, YES; I have no problem carrying a 32, 380, or 9mm. (Again, under certain circumstances). There are times when I carry a 45acp. There are times when it's just not practical, so I carry a 380 or 32. Just like I don't walk around town with my .223 or 12 gauge, because IT isn't always practical.

 

[mljdeckard]

Can you shoot a .460 OR a Blackhawk quickly enough for defensive shooting? (I do know one guy who carries a Blackhawk .44 for defense, and yes, he CAN shoot it that fast.)

 

[David E]

To answer your unrealistic question David; YES, I would have no problem carrying a 9mm mak, 380, or 32.

I'm glad that your world is so peaceful and serene and free from even a malcontent butterfly that you find my question "unrealistic."

Myself and other family members, on the other hand, living in the real world, have received threats from violent felons capable of carrying it out.

Your world sounds nice.........and I sincerely hope nothing ever happens to you that changes your perception of it.

 

[North Bender]

If you received a serious threat against your and/or your family, would you still choose a .32/.380/9x18 in your pocket as your primary gun?

If not, why not?

David E ... give it a rest. It almost fell asleep but you keep on pushing the buttons. Your writing is antagonistic and you keep beating a dead horse. You keep writing you don't care what people carry, but what is this quote about? Take a nap.

 

[amd6547]

I carry whatever caliber handgun I own which seems appropriate....Might be a 9mm browning HiPower, might be a 357mag model 19, might be a 380 Browning 1910, or it might be a 9mm mak P64 or CZ82....or it might be a 25 Beretta. Depends on what I am doing at the particular time I am leaving the house.
As far as the 380/9mm mak question is concerned, I have no doubt that either makes a fine self defense choice when employed in an accurate reliable platform.

 

[CZguy]

I carry what ever handgun that I can conceal, depending on how I'm dressed at the time. To me the primary use of a handgun is to be able to fight your way to a long gun.

 

[christcorp]

AMD6547 and CZguy. VERY PRACTICAL and THOUGHT OUT decisions. The whole purpose of a handgun, is because a long gun/shotgun is not generally practical when out of the house. And within those handguns, we sometimes need to make other concessions and compromises. Then again, there are those that in the summer months will still wear clothing that allows for concealing their full size 1911 or similar. And they won't go to social events where they can't keep their cannon concealed. And they will become a slave to fear and barely ever leave their house. (I know people like this personally). I prefer to be able to walk into a business, wearing shorts and a t-shirt in the 90 degree summer; like today; and be able to have my AMT 380 backup in my shorts pocket. And I feel quite comfortable that at this time of the year, if I needed to use this tool, that I'd be productive with it. Same when I have my walther 32 in my boot. Or my CZ-82 on my belt. As you both said, it depends on where I'm going, how I'm dressed, and my environment. Good post guys.

And David, my "World" that you find so different than yours, includes the cities of Denver, Albuquerque, Tuscon, and El Paso. I was born and raised in New York City, Newark, Jersey City, etc... I've also live in Austin, San Antonio, Miami, and New Orleans. (As well as MANY other places. The military moves you a lot). I understand the risks you speak of. But I also understand the gun is a TOOL. I will protect me and my family. Not the gun. The gun is simply there to assist. Just like a hammer puts in a nail or a saw cuts the wood. Neither can do anything without my decisions and effort. Same with a gun. And except in the coldest months, when a lot of clothing will effect penetration, I have no problem with the 32, 380, or 9mm makarov. In the winter months, it's usually the 9mm makarov or 45acp. And at home, because of many obstacles in the house, that I might need to shoot through, I use a 357 magnum. (Or a shotgun if I can get to it). So please don't make your "World" sound so different than mine or anyone elses. It's just that how YOU handle your world is different than how I and others would/will handle it.

 

[MCgunner]

I think everyone should carry the biggest hand cannon they can shoot quickly and effectively. That might not be a .45 for everyone. But I ALSO think, that over time and training, people progress and can learn to shoot things they weren't previously able to.

I can shoot an N frame .44 mag quite fast and quick, but i cannot conceal one 9 months out of the year. It doesn't fit my pocket. There are other more important parameters to a carry weapon than caliber. These more important considerations are to insure that you obey rule number one of a gunfight.

After reading this thread, the ONLY conclusion I can come to is that either MCGunner plagiarized some truly funny person, or that MCGunner is a heck of a writer and a truly funny person. I missed it the first time around, but MCGunner's post 74 is in fact a classic.

As I explained previously, it's an e-m that's been going around for a while, but I felt was appropriate for this thread.

 

[RyanM]

Standards can really be boiled down a lot farther than most people bother.

Just get the most powerful and highest capacity gun that you can

1. Control the recoil of well enough to do accurate double-taps
2. Keep concealed on your person 24/7 if necessary
3. Afford the gun itself
4. Afford enough ammo to practice with regularly
5. Have confidence in

Most arguments in these things stem from failure to realize that all 5 arms of the scale will balance differently for every person.

Should a frail old granny choose a .44 magnum that she can barely lift, can't pull the trigger, and if she manages to cock the hammer for a single action shot, the recoil makes it fly out of her hand? Or should she prioritize more realistically and get something more like a PPK-sized .32 (but one with a light polymer or aluminum frame and the ability to be carried cocked-and-locked, if such a thing even exists)? We aren't all big tough internet commandos with bulging forearms.

Should a really poor person save up for 3 years to get a $650 Kahr, or are they fine saving for just 1 year to get a $150 PA-63? We aren't all rich, either.

In my case, I'm healthy and wealthy (and wise ) enough that a Kahr MK40 is a practical carry piece for me. If my situation changed, and I had the feeling it was going to stay that way? I'd sell it for something more appropriate (lower power, if need be) in a heartbeat.

 

[oldfool]

threat assessment

nobody can make yours for you, nobody else should really try to
friendly advice should always be appreciated, but no one should bow to other's dictates, because no matter their lifestyle, their threat assessment is not yours, nor should it be

much as I admired Jeff Cooper, he never did sleep with my wife, hug my kids, nor pet my dawg
me, being me, I have no greater respect for any caliber/handgun than a soft shooting 45 acp, or a nice loud 357 mag (which never was the harsh recoil thing some think it is, not when shot out of 6" of steel)

but the problem with all "scenario constructs" -
for some, they are real enough, and possibly so with good cause
for others, they are not, nor should they be defining choices about their own chosen lifestyle

no, I should not make fun of folks who pose scenarios
but they should not make fun of me because I choose to not "prepare" myself for their choice of scenarios

I make no big secret of that fact that I enjoy firearms, because it's FUN
it is pretty much the only thing I currently do on a weekly basis for 'just me' time
that doesn't mean I don't take wearing a deadly weapon seriously
it doesn't mean I take my choice lightly
it absolutely does not mean my choice should be your choice

there are only about six thousand ways I could die in the next 6 years (hopefully not in the next 16 years, but quite possibly in the next six minutes)
Life doesn't come with but one guarantee (and even "taxes" do not count); on the day you are born, it is certain you will die.. tempting as it may be to think you will decide how, it is gosh awful unlikely that you will, "scenario" or no scenario. The one and only thing you really get to do is choose how you spend your in-between time; made a lot more difficult by people who insist on making your choices for you in matters 99.9% not gun related. I am very reluctantly obliged to "put up with" a whole lot of that. I do not feel obliged to be near as polite as a fair and reasonable person ought to be when belittled by others who disapprove of my personal choice for "casual wear".

Some folks are ONE issue voters. I envy them. I am not. Caliber and terminal ballistics matter to me, but my personal decisions abut what/how/where/when/why I carry what I choose to carry are about a combination of deliberate compromises that suit my threat assessment, not yours.

Which in no way is meant to suggest that you should not take prudent precautions in preparing for your own threat assessment.

Scenario Constructs, ask away...
my answer is, I don't have a clue, except that I personally believe that mental/physical rehearsals of most such things in my tiny mundane slice of life have little meaning, because (no matter how wrong headed), I am pretty sure that if/when it happens, it will not follow the script (leastways not my script).

friend David doesn't know or believe that I greatly admire his skill set, and respect his personal experience and hard won knowledge; all done the "old fashioned way" I suspect.

What irreconcilable differences we have are more likely based on hot button phrases suspiciously laden with implications suggesting to me something less than mutual respect for my choice (no matter how oft 'tis said "I don't care")
spitball
knitting needle
those who cannot handle
half-wit

but you can only be just so peevish, and just so pompous, for just so long, before you have to admit you are part of the problem, not part of the solution
turn-about may be fair "play", but high road it ain't

so me and uncle jack have made a pact (at least until midnight) to swear off the cutesy insult trading game.. and nothing good ever happens in public after midnight

but I really, really would like to give a 9x18 mak a shot sometime, if don't have to buy to try... and I will buy-to-try a Sig 232 if my once a week lotto $1 number ever hits... but I ain't ever giving up my S&W 357s, nor my Colt 380 for nothin' or nobody, except to feed my family, including my dawg..


(what's not to love about a 105# working breed female GSD who would give her life without pause to protect anything that looks small and helpless, and loves to chase malcontent butterflies, but looks really sad and guilty when she happens catch one ?)
whoops.. not gun related

 

[zxcvbob]

much as I admired Jeff Cooper, he never did sleep with my wife, hug my kids, nor pet my dawg

...that you know of.