To wheel gun only or not to wheel gun only

[VVelox]

Not to use a pistol in a gunfight with persons using longguns??

Reread up on it. The use of a revolver represented a very notable problem in it.

 

[X-Rap]

So now we have a test that proves you can shoot a pistol as slow as a revolver by loading it down to the same capacity???? And on top of that with less accuracy???
I guess there isn't much difference between the two if you neuter the autos capacity.

 

[tomrkba]

For me, there is still a large difference. I cannot shoot a centerfire revolver as nearly as fast as a semi-auto. I am generally happy with .25-.30 sec splits with a revolver and can normally expect .16-.18 splits with a semi-auto. My revolver reloads are slow too and I need to start practicing them daily. But, this does not mean I won't try to beat my semiauto performance with a revolver.

 

[HexHead]

Uhm. Yeah. You are completely forgetting the lessons learned from the 1986 FBI Miami shootout. Being out gunned when one has a revolver is a very real problem as that one and lots of others have shown.

The problem with the Miami shootout wasn't revolvers, but tactics. Don't leave the shot guns in the trunk.

 

[X-Rap]

So you really believe that had those agents been carrying pistols with 15+ capacity and a reload the outcome wouldn't have been better?

 

[David E]

And you would do better just shooting 25 rounds.

But not 50? If I'm winning at 25, why wouldn't I be winning at 50?

Not that I need to on an internet forum, but I give full permission for anyone to hijack my "test", or modify it, or copy it, or whatever...

Easy

Sure, they can hijack it and turn it into something completely different....which is fine as long as they understand they turned it into something completely different.

 

[X-Rap]

Proving who can make the gun go bang the fastest is as silly as seeing who can degrade the advantage of one platform to equal that of another.
Please explain the point of these tests.

 

[David E]

I am generally happy with .25-.30 sec splits with a revolver and can normally expect .16-.18 splits with a semi-auto.

You're not consistently hitting that 8" circle at 10 yds with .16 - .18 splits, so you're fooling yourself there.

If you're a Sharpshooter or better, you SHOULD be able to make those hits with a revolver if you're taking .25 - .30 for each trigger pull.

My revolver reloads are slow too.....

Whose fault is that?

 

[David E]

Proving who can make the gun go bang the fastest is as silly as seeing who can degrade the advantage of one platform to equal that of another.
Please explain the point of these tests.

In a previous post added a target at 5 yds, which is well beyond the distance of actual gunfights. My problem with the 10 yd target, aside from being arbitrary and unrealistic (its 3X further away than most real life encounters) is that it significantly shifts the focus to accuracy, especially if IDPA scoring is utilized. (Which over emphasizes accuracy already)

For the matches I run, anything C zone or better is "good," since in real life, a fast C zone hit beats the hell out of a sloooow A zone hit. BUT, hit the D zone, a penalty of 3 seconds is added to your time. It encourages speed, but severely punishes sloppiness....as it would in real life.

So, using that scoring mechanism on an IPSC target at five yards. Guns empty, revolver cylinder open, semi at slide lock with mag inserted, ammo in a factory box tray, lets see which platform can fire 50 rounds on target the fastest.

 

[David E]

So you really believe that had those agents been carrying pistols with 15+ capacity and a reload the outcome wouldn't have been better?

One of them was. Jerry Dove, iirc. He was the one that made the unsurvivable hit with the 9mm Winchester Silvertip.

He'd fired his three 15 rd mags empty.

Those agents screwed ups many different ways before the first shot was fired.

 

[X-Rap]

I still don't see any useful benefit to the exercise since the practical application in real life is non existent and does nothing to answer the OP.
Why not design a test based more on realistic skills?

 

[X-Rap]

It's been a while since I read the whole report but it seems that there were a few revolvers that were shot empty with difficulty reloading. My point was that there were only a few semi autos in use by the good guys and if all were armed with the pistols it would have made a difference, especially if there were guns not firing because they were empty.

 

[murf]

davides latest iteration of this contest wins the gold medal imo.

"lets see which platform can fire 50 rounds on target the fastest" is exactly what this contest is all about. concealing extra mags, or speedloaders is not practical sometimes. tossing extra rounds in your pocket is practical almost every time.

i believe the ruger ranch rifle was topgun in the miami shootout. penetration was not an issue with the 223.

murf

 

[X-Rap]

I throw loose 22 rounds in my pocket from time to time but can't remember carrying defensive ammo that way, can't see it as very practical at all unless your trying to drive an outcome that wouldn't happen under practical conditions.
Those rabbits come pretty fast but so far I have been able to sort my ammo from change and keys and keep them at bay, don't think I'd want that action with my carry ammo.

 

[David E]

Why not design a test based more on realistic skills?

By all means, please do!

We anxiously await to see what viable test you come up with.

 

[David E]

It's been a while since I read the whole report but it seems that there were a few revolvers that were shot empty with difficulty reloading.

That's because bits and pieces of body parts were occluding the chambers.

 

[HexHead]

It's been a while since I read the whole report but it seems that there were a few revolvers that were shot empty with difficulty reloading. My point was that there were only a few semi autos in use by the good guys and if all were armed with the pistols it would have made a difference, especially if there were guns not firing because they were empty.

IIRC, the revolver that was shot empty that had such a hard time reloading belonged to the agent that was already hit multiple times, including in his hand.

Also, didn't the BG that was the driver have some large revolver, like a Dan Wesson .357?

 

[X-Rap]

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Rap View Post
Why not design a test based more on realistic skills?

By all means, please do!

We anxiously await to see what viable test you come up with.

from page 2 post 47

A simple test would be to time multiple shots on multiple plates using a 15 shot auto and a 5-6 shot revolver. we know which will be faster after the first 5-6 rounds, incorporate some movement and stress and there will be missed or poor shots. If one cylinder is all you may ever need then the discussion need go no further, there are definitely a couple trains of thought on the matter with the truth being that most of us will never need a single round for defense.

 

[David E]

A simple test would be to time multiple shots on multiple plates using a 15 shot auto and a 5-6 shot revolver. we know which will be faster after the first 5-6 rounds, incorporate some movement and stress and there will be missed or poor shots.

This is much too vague.

Distance? How many plates? Plate size? How many shots? Incorporate what kind of movement? What kind of stress?

Are we running spare mags, speed loaders or what?

 

[Archaic Weapon]

You know, this kind of flew off topic a while ago. Perhaps we should move it over to posts spawned specific to the auto vs revolver speed argument.

 

[X-Rap]

David E you are indeed hilarious, post 64, 65, 88 now that is vague.
AW the OP was about which one to choose, if speed, capacity and accuracy can't be used as part of the criteria in choosing a defensive weapon what can.
I agree it has derailed into silliness with shooting loose ammo and such but it is certainly fair to compare what is practical and typical for EDC and expose the pros and cons.

 

[David E]

David E you are indeed hilarious, post 64, 65, 88 now that is vague.

You went back...........3 pages to cite........post numbers????

 

[Archaic Weapon]

Ha.

 

[David E]

My questions are how many here are strictly wheelie men and do you ever feel undergunned?

In an effort to get back on topic....

Tom Horn was strictly a "wheelie man" and it ultimately cost him his life. It's good to be proficient with both platforms.

Secondly in reality what is the likely hood of ever really being "undergunned" with a 6 round .357 with a speedload available in a civilian encounter?

It depends how well and how fast you can hit firing DA

Countless times folks have bragged about their prowess with a DA revolver, then we learn they only shoot it slow fire and only fire it single action.

 

[Archaic Weapon]

Tom Horn lived in a time when there where less than 20 models in existence, give or take, and spent his time on the range and drunk. I wouldn't blame him for not know what a safety was.