Unintentional Discharge with 1911 in Public Bathroom

[Neo-Luddite]

Holster off the belt (w/pistol enclosed therein) ~rests well in the cradle of the downed trousers while one is on the seat of excremeditation. AND--this procedure makes it unlikely to be left behind as well.

 

[guncheese]

there is no such thing as a accident!
all such occurrences are merely the result of not paying attention.
this applies to planes,trains,automobiles,weapons,chainsaws ect.....

 

[JRWhit]

Every pistol manual I've ever read states in Bold red letters Pistol may fire if dropped when loaded!!!!

 

[Deaf Smith]

True, but it's still the lesser of two evils when someone doesn't get the requisite training needed to prevent negligent discharges. It also gives the gun-happy amateur a choice.

The idea is to prevent accidents like this fool shooting his own wife:

http://cjonline.com/news/2013-01-08/man-accidentally-shoots-wife-concealed-carry-gun

Better option is to get a drop safe gun.

A series-80 Colt 1911, Glock, Sig, etc... or revolver like a S&W, Ruger, Colt, etc.. that is drop safe.

OR... just get an extra-power fining pin spring like those made by Wolf.

The fix is not hard. There are many test where such as Glocks were dropped from helicopters and didn't fire.

Deaf

 

[Potatohead]

delete

 

[Potatohead]

The problem I have is that there is no indication that the person was anything close to what you initially described him to be based on the information presented. In other words, it was an unwarranted assumption.

Yes, mistakes can get people killed. By the same token, there aren't any people alive who have not made mistakes in their lives, including with firearms, even if that mistake was something they did as a young novice just learning about firearms as they're growing up. That's what the older and (presumably) wiser amongst us are for...to guide people though these issues.


I would go so far as to say that it's a large indicator of maturity to be able to own up to one's mistakes in public so that others may learn from it as well...hopefully taking something valuable away that might prevent a similar occurance with someone else.

Im with Chief on this one.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

LOL

Yeah, I know. I hate it when mine does that...

M

Well I'm always in the market for those outdated antique's. I'm more then happy to take them of anyones hands for the price of shipping.

 

[Sam1911]

there is no such thing as a accident!
all such occurrences are merely the result of not paying attention.
this applies to planes,trains,automobiles,weapons,chainsaws ect.....

Yup! Of course it does help to keep firmly in mind that every one of us are human with all the lapses of judgment, failures of proper attention, and sheer dumb bad luck that comes with being so.

Fortunately, not all accidents involve grave harm and we have social protocols to address the matter if they do.

 

[Charles S]

Does Gun Site offer toilet training?

No they do not, but the esteemed Mr. Ayoob does cover this in his concealed carry teaching.

 

[tipoc]

Not the first nor last. With a variety of guns.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/...-off-walmart-bathroom-brk.html?nclick_check=1

Another...

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/gun-goes-off-inside-auraria-campus-bathroom-stall

and another...

http://yellowtape.blogs.starnewsonl...d-after-gun-goes-off-in-cracker-barrel/?tc=ar

One more, that's a little different...

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20121228/NEWS/121229791

That's after about a 5 minute search. If I'd gone another 5 likely I'da found more.

Kinda makes you suspicious of public bathrooms.

tipoc

 

[Black Butte]

If one cannot carry a firearm safely ... then one should not be carrying a firearm .....

*Red lights flash*

We have a winner, folks!

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

It is Swartz, not Schwartz.

But...what if it's anodized?

Oh wait...that's be schwarz...

 

[scaatylobo]

Guess I am just lucky ?

Been carrying for a 'few' decades and had to use the mens room more than a few hundred times during those decades.

I have carried a S&W model 10

S&W model 36,442,340,360,640,581,27,28,29 to name the S&W's I still recall.

Colts = commander,combat commander,full sized, and kimbers and other models of 1911's.

Glocks = 27,23,19,17,35,30,30SF,

S&W Sigma,in 9MM & .40 S&W.

And I have not had a ND or any variation with any of the above named and MANY others during the aforementioned DECADES of carry.

I do see that there is always the possibility of a ND,so be as cautious as humanly possible and remind yourself "THIS IS A LOADED GUN".

That might sound silly,but its saved me from damage and embarrassment ---- so far into my 66 th year.

 

[Old Dog]

Lot o' righteousness on this thread, I must observe.

Predictably, most seem of the opinion that the "stuff happens" explanation is not acceptable.

I have seen NDs (I'd actually consider a dropped Series 70 an AD) by the most seasoned gun guys -- in the military and law enforcement -- folks that I couldn't believe would ever place themselves in a situation where the bad thing happened ... I long ago concluded that those who are the most familiar with firearms and have used and carried them the longest ...may be at risk for the complacency bug to bite. Those who would carry a Series 70 would presumably know of the drop risk. I cannot judge the man. However from some of the comments, it seems that some believe this could never happen to them ...

Most of us seem to be in the habit of leaving the handgun in the holster while conducting our business (clearly the optimum solution) ... Apparently, there are out there some others who've always been in the habit of taking their handguns out of the holster when using public facilities.

As a side note, my pre-Series 80 LW and Combat Commanders, sans FPBS, are preferred carry pieces ...

 

[Tirod]

It was asked if Gunsite still teaches toilet training. In fact, just who does? I'd like a by name list and the name of the course offering this enlightened view.

I'm reading some apparent graduates of said training who are certified by their instructors to some apparent standard. Is this something secret written in the IPDA rule book where you have to slip the handshake with the credentialling committee in order to be recognized by them as a "good" shooter? And, if you aren't, is it justified to suggest those who haven't had the training are no better than the byproducts they are eliminating?

Jiminy, let's write the acknowledged experts and ask them to chime in with their views on it. I'm sure we can come up with some interesting debates over the Hammock Technique vs. Leave It In the Holster. What technique do you experts recommend for those evenings when your stomach suddenly suggests worshipping the porcelain god face to face is the task of the moment?

I'll take a moment to discuss Use of the Tactical Toilet in Full Battle Rattle. You are aware you have to be very careful not to lose your M16 in one, right? You can't just prop it up on the ledge next to the seat, and if you do lose it, you can't ask your SO to find you another, and he can't swipe it from a customer truck, in for maintenance. Nope, S4's like me unleash evil Master Sergeants who require the unit to stand down for a serial number inventory, return the stolen M16, make you retrieve yours, and then publicly clean it.

I'd have to say if you haven't spent at least two weeks in the field in full web gear, you aren't sufficiently trained to carry a weapon into any toilet.

Anybody have access to the Secret Service course materials? What does the FBI teach? Special Forces? Rangers? Spetsnaz? German Border Patrol? A comprehensive view of the subject should require a wide ranging view of the subject.

What is important is that some are likely speaking up about something they aren't credentialed to speak about. Seems we need to flush out these imposters, by requiring them to provide copies of their certificates. Then we'll know who's best qualified - they stayed the course and completed it.

We all know that this thread isn't finished until the paperwork is done.

 

[MistWolf]

Yep.

At this point, it might be good to note that the 1911 pistol was not designed, nor was it intended to be a CCW weapon. It was designed and intended to be primarily a cavalryman's weapon...maintained in Condition Three until the Baker flag was hoisted...

The Army had Browning add the manual thumb safety. It was not part of the original design. Browning intended the 1911 to be carried with a round chambered with no thumb safety, relying on the grip safety to prevent UDs. He designed the 1911 to be drawn and fired in a single motion.

 

[1911Tuner]

The Army had Browning add the manual thumb safety. It was not part of the original design.

Yes. I know...and it was specifically the cavalry that requested the thumb safety.

He designed the 1911 to be drawn and fired in a single motion.

Browning wasn't a tactician. He was a designer. He designed what was requested by the people who paid his salary and left the "intent" on how the gun was to be deployed and used up to those same people.

US Army protocol mandated that it be maintained with the hammer down on an empty chamber until action was imminent...at which point, it could be readied and the safety engaged. (Line of departure! Lock and load!)

Or...the safety applied and the pistol reholstered if the mounted cavarlyman found himself trying to hang onto a terrified horse, which was the reason that the US Cavarly asked for it in the first place. They understood then, that a man under stress and in a hurry might forget to take his finger off the trigger before jamming it in the holster.

Faster and simpler than lowering the hammer to half cock, which was Browning's "intended" safety. (Yes, it is. It's mentioned in the patents.)

Finally, they wanted the safety to lock the slide in battery so that jamming it into the holster wouldn't push it out of battery, possibly not immediately returning when it was redrawn...which was entirely possible in a battlefield environment.


Once the emergency had passed, it was to be returned to Condition 3...the same as it was, and always has been for every weapon from rifle to howitzer.

 

[itsa pain]

there is no reason in the world to carry a 1911 with a round in the chamber since you will mostly never need the gun anyway. people act like they are in combat at all times and have to fast draw like Wild Bill Hitchcock. I can rack the slide as fast as take off the safety and I do not even carry a gun. if a guy cannot do that citing the slide is to hard to rack carry a revolver which is the safest anyway

 

[TRX]

I normally use an ankle holster or a pocket holster.that has good retention; I don't have to juggle the gun if I need to drop my pants and sit. I've never used my shoulder rig for CCW, but that wouldn't cause any bathroom adventures either.

 

[MistWolf]

..Browning wasn't a tactician. He was a designer...

What's that got to do with it? He still had to explain to his customers why he designed something the way he did. While the 1911 may have been designed primarily with use by the cavalry in mind, they knew it would see use in other units and by civilians as well.

In case you're interested, it was Jeff Cooper who wrote about Browning designing the 1911 to be carried cocked and loaded, using just the grip safety.

Personally, I carry mine cocked and locked

 

[Pilot]

What's that got to do with it? He still had to explain to his customers why he designed something the way he did. While the 1911 may have been designed primarily with use by the cavalry in mind, they knew it would see use in other units and by civilians as well.

In case you're interested, it was Jeff Cooper who wrote about Browning designing the 1911 to be carried cocked and loaded, using just the grip safety.

Personally, I carry mine cocked and locked

Browning designed guns to his CUSTOMERS specifications. As you say, the 1911 was designed for the U.S. Army. Browning's only thought was to meet their specs, and get the contract. Period. The fact that we can use that design over 100 years later as a defensive tool is a testament to his genius, and a testament to the U.S. Army's requirements for a cavalry pistol.

 

[1911Tuner]

He still had to explain to his customers why he designed something the way he did.

No. They told him what they wanted, and he gave'em what they asked for.

In case you're interested, it was Jeff Cooper who wrote about Browning designing the 1911 to be carried cocked and loaded, using just the grip safety.

The good colonel has been a little wide of the mark on a few occasions. This is one of'em.

The first 8 pistols that Browning submitted for testing didn't even have manual safeties. They were returned with the request for a manual slide locking safety...and he complied.

So...

How could Browning have meant for the pistol to be carried cocked and locked if it didn't even have a thumb safety until the Cavalry asked for one?

While the 1911 may have been designed primarily with use by the cavalry in mind, they knew it would see use in other units and by civilians as well.

And "other units" were still subject to the same protocol as the cavalry.

And "they" weren't concerned with what civilians did with the pistol. Until Cooper came along, most people who carried the big Colt carried it in Condition 2 or 3 or at half cock, which is likely Browning's true intent if he had one at all. That's how he designed all his other exposed hammer guns. The Model 92 and 94 Winchester are examples, with the half cock being the only safety on them.

The 1911 was designed to allow carry in any mode that the end-user chooses. It CAN be carried cocked and locked...but it wasn't meant specifically TO be carried that way.

Beyond that, I doubt if Browning gave a rotund rodent's rump how anybody carried it. It was an assignment. A job. No more and no less.

Personally, I carry mine cocked and locked.

So do I, unless conditions dictate Condition 2.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

He didn't say cocked and locked, he said cocked and loaded. While I do not think that is entirely safe, or safe at all, even a cocked and locked gun can (and did) go off. To each their own. We have some "perfect" people who never have "accidents", or whatever we might call those lapses of attention, but it is still a matter of choice, not law. There are times, and in some locales, that I switch the safety to "off" and reholster. I just don't want to fumble at all in the moment, and that gives me an edge of confidence for that moment. I have tried to go too fast in some training actions, and missed the safety during the draw. Whgen I get to safer surroundings, I go back to C&L.

 

[ilbob]

And folks wonder why we repeat over and over, DON'T MESS WITH YOUR GUN IN PUBLIC. LEAVE IT IN THE HOLSTER. A HOLSTERED GUN IS A SAFE GUN.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've got a GREAT reason you need to draw it just because...and you're all professional and stuff. Uh huh.

DON'T.

Cops and security guards get bored and think their guns are toys and end up with unintentional discharges on a pretty regular basis.

Leave the thing in the holster and stop playing with it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Leave the thing in the holster and stop playing with it.

This. I see people unlimbering their CCW pistols in gun stores and the like to clear'em for inspection because somebody asked to see it. Gives me the willies. Leave the thing alone unless you need to draw it.

He didn't say cocked and locked, he said cocked and loaded.

And why would anyone purposely do that, given the option of a manual safety? That'd be a little like carryin' a cocked revolver. Doesn't make sense.