Unintentional Discharge with 1911 in Public Bathroom

[MistWolf]

...And why would anyone purposely do that, given the option of a manual safety? That'd be a little like carryin' a cocked revolver. Doesn't make sense.

What I said was, Browning originally designed the 1911 to be carried that way. The original design did not have a thumb safety. The Army asked for it to be added later. Don't make the mistake I am advocating carrying a 1911 this way, for I am not.

While Browning did design weapons per customer request, he also designed many on his own initiative. Browning was not the only one to submit a handgun to the Army for consideration. His design had to beat out the others, so he did have to sell his design to his customer.

The half cock notch is to catch the hammer in case it slips while being thumb cocked, same as the half cock of the Colt SAA. It may have been originally added so the shooter had the option of carrying the 1911 safely the hammer down on a loaded chamber, but the half cock sear isn't enough to hold the hammer if it takes a hard blow such as if the pistol were dropped and landed on the hammer

 

[1911Tuner]

Browning originally designed the 1911 to be carried that way. The original design did not have a thumb safety. The half cock notch is to catch the hammer in case it slips while being thumb cocked.

Maybe you should go read the 1910 patents, where Browning refers to the half cock as the "Safety Position" and gives instruction on lowering the hammer to half cock with one hand, describing the modification to the grip safety tang that allowed for that...something that the 1907 and 1909 models didn't provide for.

All of Browning's other hammer guns utilized the captive half cock as a manual safety, by design and intent.

half cock sear isn't enough to hold the hammer if it takes a hard blow such as if the pistol were dropped and landed on the hammer

And that doesn't change the fact that the half-cock is a de facto safety. Read the patents.

While Browning did design weapons per customer request, he also designed many on his own initiative.

But the 1911 wasn't one of them.

Browning was not the only one to submit a handgun to the Army for consideration.

Yep. The Savage was the competition.

And for the record...Browning himself didn't submit anything. Colt did. He was working on the pistol under contract for Colt, and he had a team of their engineers and tool makers and designers at is disposal.

 

[1911Tuner]

I took the liberty of copying from the patent, filed at the US patent office in Ogden Utah, Feburary 15, 1910...page 7, lines 7-12...for your continuing education.

To wit:

"Heretofore, in the pistols of this class, when the hammer was cocked ready for firing and it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without allowing it to touch the firing pin, it required both hands of the user to accomplish this act."

If we understand that the only two positions that don't allow the hammer to touch the firing pin are cocked and half cocked, we can extrapolate from these lines that the half cock is the identified and intended safety position.

What is conspicuously missing is his identifying the hammer at full cock with the manual safety applied as a safety position. Perhaps we can speculate that cocked and locked was only intended to be a short-term condition.

If you want to argue the point further, you'll have to take it up with John Mose.

 

[Ryanxia]

I read through the whole original thread and it seemed like a case of inertia from being dropped driving the firing pin into the primer. This was due to a lack of firing pin block in that series of gun. Even if he had pulled the whole holster out with the gun and dropped them it would potentially still discharge.

Definitely not a series of gun worth carrying (I would and do still own guns with a similar flaw but I don't carry them).

 

[1911Tuner]

I read through the whole original thread and it seemed like a case of inertia from being dropped driving the firing pin into the primer. This was due to a lack of firing pin block in that series of gun. Even if he had pulled the whole holster out with the gun and dropped them it would potentially still discharge.

While it's entirely possible for the firing pin's momentum to drive it deep enough into a primer to light it off, the pistol pretty much has to be dropped dead straight onto the muzzle for it to happen...and from such a short distance...it would also require a pretty weak firing pin spring. Either that, or the firing pin is longer than spec...or both.

Unlikely that it would have fired in a holster that covers the muzzle due to the cushioning effect. It has to be dropped straight down onto a hard surface, like concrete or a solid hardwood floor.

I guess the lesson here is to take the necessary measures not to drop the pistol. Is gun. Gun is not safe.

 

[tipoc]

The fact that we can use that design over 100 years later as a defensive tool is a testament to his genius, and a testament to the U.S. Army's requirements for a cavalry pistol.

Since we're being accurate here:

The gun was not specifically designed for the cavalry. The Army wanted a replacement for their revolvers. An open competition was called for and several pistols were submitted. Which did better than the revolvers and fought it out.
Now the transition was years in the making and Colt and Browning went through a number of versions of the gun and tried 3 different calibers from 1900 till the finally adopted gun in 1911.

The biggest resistance to the change came from the cavalry. They viewed themselves as a elite section of the military and had particular demands. Their field testing resulted in three major changes, a shorter firing pin that did not touch the primer, the grip safety and the thumb safety. They wanted a gun that did not go off when dropped from horse back (at least no more so then their revolvers did and less so if possible) and wanted a safe way of re-holstering the gun between strings of fire and when two hands weren't available for de-cocking. So the thumb safety. They were happy with the changes because it got them what they wanted.

Back to the original subject

The op says that he placed his gun inside the plastic container for the "sanitary toilet seat covers" in the stall. Not on top of it but inside it, he jammed it in there. Now these things are attached to the wall. The seat covers are held inside a paper cartridge that is inserted through the wide bottom of the plastic holder. You can then pull the individual seat covers through the front opening one at a time. He jammed the gun in that front opening. When the thing is full that might work to hold a gun. When the paper is not full a gun can slip down and that's what happened here.

The gun didn't just fall on the floor and go off it slipped through the plastic container and then hit the ground. So what angle it hit the ground at we don't know. What happened to it as it slipped through plastic holder we also don't know. We also don't know what shape the piece was in before it fell. So the main lesson here seems to be...don't drop your gun.

I linked to stories of a Ruger single action firing in a bathroom stall, of a 9mm something, firing as well. So it is not about 1911s. It's about not dropping the gun.

tipoc

 

[Old Dog]

What happened to it as it slipped through plastic holder we also don't know. We also don't know what shape the piece was in before it fell

Anyone take a look at the photos that the OP on the other forum posted? Slide was partially retracted, thumb safety still on ...

And yeah, the pistol is a $2900 Nighthawk, which looks to have been in very good shape.

At any rate, it's not as though the risk of discharge from a Series 70-system dropped dead-on the muzzle from a hard surface from three or more feet is an unknown phenomenon ... that's why we have the Series 80, right?

Tirod noted in an earlier post:

I'm sure we can come up with some interesting debates over the Hammock Technique vs. Leave It In the Holster.

I use a modified technique myself, a combination of the "Leave it in the Holster" with the "Hammock." I try very hard to never have to do my business in public restrooms, anyway, but sometimes the call of nature just has to be answered.

 

[taliv]

what i find interesting about this is that nighthawk has a whole page of their pistols that have passed california's drop tests.

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/safeguns_resp.asp (search by mfg for nighthawk)

Effective January 1, 2001, no handgun may be manufactured within California, imported into California for sale, lent, given, kept for sale, or offered/exposed for sale unless that handgun model has passed firing, safety, and drop tests and is certified for sale in California by the Department of Justice.

i'm kinda curious if this model was one of them


(i love how the URL for that is "safeguns...")

 

[herrwalther]

If you want to argue the point further, you'll have to take it up with John Mose.

Deal. Find me a Delorean, Doc Brown, and some plutonium. I am sure JMB would be very tickled that one of his contracted projects is more popular than his other designs such as the Hi-Power.

Firearms are inherently unsafe, all taking minute actions to send a junk of metal toward something. The only purely safe firearm is one that is filled with concrete. Anyone who carries on a regular or daily basis must know that safety is a relative term. We can argue all day what is the safest pistol among Glocks, 1911s etc but the bottom line is safeties can fail. Although rarely they do. Keep practicing and carry on.

 

[tipoc]

From OldDog,

Anyone take a look at the photos that the OP on the other forum posted? Slide was partially retracted, thumb safety still on ...

Yeah I did look at the pics and odd that and good that others noted it. It means that when the slide retracted it pushed the thumb safety out and away from the frame from where it usually rests. Normally with the thumb safety engaged it's impossible to retract the slide. With the thumb safety disengaged it's possible to hold the slide by hand and prevent it from moving when the hammer drops and the gun is fired. So the force must have been significant to dislodge the safety in this case. Or something wasn't fit right, something else happened.

From Tally:

what i find interesting about this is that nighthawk has a whole page of their pistols that have passed california's drop tests.

Series 70 guns with lighter weight firing pins and extra power firing pin springs have safely passed California's drop test. This involves a 10 foot drop onto a concrete slab muzzle first and hammer first. But! Not every gun has to do this test, only one sample of a type and as with any gun some things may vary. There is a reason Colt came up with the series 80 safety (the best of the lot IMHO). It makes the gun more drop safe.

Expect that if you drop your piece, no matter what it is, it will go off. Expect it.

Bottom line...Don't drop your gun!

tipoc

 

[1911Tuner]

I am sure JMB would be very tickled that one of his contracted projects is more popular than his other designs such as the Hi-Power.

John Browning didn't design the High Power. He never saw one. Dieudonne Saive waited for the patents to expire so that he could incorporate some of Browning's ideas into the P35...but Browning died nearly 9 years before it made its debut while working on a stack barrel double shotgun. The pistol that he worked on...a contract for the French army...was the Grande Rendement, which the French determined was unacceptable, and was shelved not long before his death.

The gun was not specifically designed for the cavalry. The Army wanted a replacement for their revolvers.

The US Army got that with the 1907 contract pistols, which Browning also had a hand in. Those were the first ones to have the grip safety...a drop safety for horse-mounted troops...that was an integral part of the design.

So, it may not have been specifically for the cavalry, but that branch had a lot of input on the finalized particulars...like the thumb and grip safeties.

 

[Paul7]

So what's the worst that can happen, a round goes into the floor?

 

[wally]

So what's the worst that can happen, a round goes into the floor?

Frags can do weird things, you could end up on the receiving end of a nasty lawsuit. So lots bad could happen with only a minor injury to a third party.

 

[hardluk1]

Something that a series 70 can do.

 

[splithoof]

The worst that can happen?????
How about some idiot negligently loosing control of his weapon, and my kid getting shot! All this chatter about what "caused" this weapon to discharge, but very little said about the consequences that this person brings by his foolery.
And we expect the non-gun owning public to support us? C'mon guys, get your act together!

 

[1911Tuner]

So what's the worst that can happen, a round goes into the floor?

Wood floor? Yep. Concrete could get interesting.

Or not. The solid concrete would stop the bullet, then the force would drive the gun upward. Any bullet fragments would probably be mostly contained by the barrel before they could escape, and the barrel would likely bulge or even split.

Concrete fragments might do some damage at shoe level. How much is open to speculation unless...

unless...

Hmmm

I've got a couple junkers around here. When I get a little time, I might be persuaded to conduct an experiment. I'll have to rig up a fixture that'll guide the gun straight down onto its muzzle and use an old tire to contain any fragments...maybe with some heavy cardboard in the inside circumference to determine the potential damage from the fragments.

Hmmm

It can be done, but first I gotta get a round tuit. Hard to come by these days.

 

[tipoc]

S&W Shield Safety Alertfrom August 22, 2013.

ALL M&P Shield™ firearms manufactured before August 19, 2013.

DESCRIPTION OF THE HAZARD:


Smith & Wesson has identified a condition where the trigger bar pin could damage the lower trigger in certain M&P Shields in a way that may affect the functionality of the drop safety feature of the firearm, potentially allowing the pistol to discharge if it is dropped.

Any unintended discharge of a firearm has the potential to cause injury, and we ask that you STOP USING YOUR PISTOL IMMEDIATELY UNTIL IT HAS BEEN INSPECTED AND, IF THE CONDITION IS FOUND, REPAIRED.

https://secure05.lwcdirect.com/fron...inType=skipWelcome&clientID=742&campaignID=63

So it ain't just 1911s.

How about some idiot negligently loosing control of his weapon, and my kid getting shot!

One reason I had three kids.

tipoc

 

[MistWolf]

Maybe you should go read the 1910 patents, where Browning refers to the half cock as the "Safety Position" and gives instruction on lowering the hammer to half cock with one hand, describing the modification to the grip safety tang that allowed for that...something that the 1907 and 1909 models didn't provide for.

All of Browning's other hammer guns utilized the captive half cock as a manual safety, by design and intent.

And that doesn't change the fact that the half-cock is a de facto safety. Read the patents.

Oh, good grief! What I said was the following. In bold is the part you snipped out-

The half cock notch is to catch the hammer in case it slips while being thumb cocked, same as the half cock of the Colt SAA. It may have been originally added so the shooter had the option of carrying the 1911 safely the hammer down on a loaded chamber, but the half cock sear isn't enough to hold the hammer if it takes a hard blow such as if the pistol were dropped and landed on the hammer

I never claimed the half cock is not a safety.

If Browning didn't have a method of carry in mind when he designed the 1911, he wouldn't have been able to design it to be carried that way.

I'm sure the cavalrymen were happy to need two hands, while mounted, to bring their new handgun into action. That feature alone would make the 1911 superior to the SAA it was to replace

 

[herrwalther]

John Browning didn't design the High Power. He never saw one. Dieudonne Saive waited for the patents to expire so that he could incorporate some of Browning's ideas into the P35...but Browning died nearly 9 years before it made its debut while working on a stack barrel double shotgun. The pistol that he worked on...a contract for the French army...was the Grande Rendement, which the French determined was unacceptable, and was shelved not long before his death.

Guess my firearm history is a little rusty for that time period.

but very little said about the consequences that this person brings by his foolery.

I am sure most people on this forum knows the effect of a .45 on a person. Legally, if the accidental round did hit someone I am sure there would be plenty of criminal or civil charges for negligence and perhaps unintentional death. Understanding how something happened and how to prevent it is how firearms get better, as well as our handling of them. Before that LEO hung up his 1911 on the coat rack in his bathroom stall, I am sure he thought that was a safe practice. Now because of that AD, you don't do that. Now because of the AD discussed in this thread, you don't shove a 1911 in a sanitation cover dispenser. Lesson learned.

 

[splithoof]

^^^It is no "AD"; it is a "ND". When you loose control of your firearm and it discharges, it is negligence. That is not to be tolerated in my book. That person should loose the legal ability to carry a firearm for some time.

 

[1911Tuner]

Oh, good grief! What I said was the following. In bold is the part you snipped out-

I didn't snip anything out. I copied the lines that addressed the question. The being that the half cock was his intended safety mode, the same as it was on the military contract 1907...1909...and the 1910 models.

Browning had a penchant for designing a part to perform multiple functions. The slidestop alone has five. The disconnect has 2. (And preventing firing out of battery isn't one of them.)

If the half cock had only been intended to function as a hammer arrest, it would have been simpler, cheaper, and faster to make it a simple flat shelf instead of going to the trouble and expense to machine it into a captive notch that effectively locks the hammer and sear.

If Browning didn't have a method of carry in mind when he designed the 1911, he wouldn't have been able to design it to be carried that way.

Oh good grief. (To borrow from you.)

He designed it so that it could be carried in any manner desired....C1, C2, C3, or half cocked. Beyond that, he didn't know or care how it would be carried. He left that decision to the people who were buying the guns, and the army decided that it was to be carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber unless and until there was a reason to to to Condition 1...or "when action is imminent."

The only thing that Browning had in "mind" was meeting the US Army Ordnance Board's specs. The manual safety was added in the 11th hour. I'll ask again...How could he have intended the pistol to be carried cocked and locked when it didn't even have a manual safety other than the half cock until he added it...on request...as the final modification?

The thumb safety wasn't even his idea. The belief that he meant for it to be used to continuously carry the pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety applied doesn't follow logic.

 

[1911Tuner]

I am sure most people on this forum knows the effect of a .45 on a person. Legally, if the accidental round did hit someone I am sure there would be plenty of criminal or civil charges for negligence and perhaps unintentional death.

My guess is that a muzzle down dropped discharge onto a solid surface wouldn't result in a serious injury unless it was a wood floor with somebody in the room below. On concrete or tile, any fragments would pose little risk except maybe to the foot of the man who dropped it or the feet of anyone standing in close proximity.

If you fire a bullet straight down into a concrete surface, the bullet will flatten and knock a shallow divot into the concrete, and any fragmentation of the bullet will be minimal. Think about what you find after hitting a steel target. Flattened bullets laying on the ground in front of the plate. If the muzzle is pressed hard against the target when the gun fires, the bullet will be pretty well contained by the barrel, and there's a good chance that it would barely exit, if at all.

As soon as I can jerry-rig a test, I'll see what happens.

 

[Trent]

Interesting to see how that testing turns out, 1911Tuner.

Just a side note, but that the same basic thing that allegedly happened here with a 1911 can happen to most shotguns with the safety on. The safety on most shotguns that have safeties just blocks the trigger, not the pin. Which means a drop can still set them off under the right conditions with sometimes bad consequences. Never try to clear an obstacle with a loaded shotgun (climb a fence, etc).

I got out of the car once and had an H&K USP fall out of a shoulder holster, on to a concrete driveway. The retaining snap had apparently come undone when I removed my seat belt. The gun hit the ground directly on the hammer with my head directly in line with the bore. It was in condition 1 at the time. Damn glad the safety mechanism worked on that firearm. Otherwise the end of the barrel would have been the last thing I ever witnessed on this planet.... took a long time for my heartrate to slow back down after that. And it was the LAST time I ever used a shoulder rig.

 

[Charles S]

It is no "AD"; it is a "ND". When you loose control of your firearm and it discharges, it is negligence. That is not to be tolerated in my book. That person should loose the legal ability to carry a firearm for some time.

Have you ever had a car wreck?.... Statistically the majority of us have over our life. How long should we loose our ability to drive?

 

[1911Tuner]

It was in condition 1 at the time. Damn glad the safety mechanism worked on that firearm. Otherwise the end of the barrel would have been the last thing I ever witnessed on this planet.

Interestingly, that's exactly why the grip safety was added to the 1907, and reappeared on the 1909, 1910, and 1911 models. The gun falling and hitting the ground muzzle up is more likely than landing straight on the muzzle. The heavy, steel triggers coupled with the straight-line operation could conceivably trip the hammer and fire the gun back at the guy who dropped it...or at somebody else. Or...in the case of the 1911...at a horse.

Much more dangerous than landing on the muzzle and firing into the ground.

Interesting to see how that testing turns out, 1911Tuner.

I've been formulating a way to do it, and I may have it worked out, at least in theory. Since I don't have a camera or a recorder, I'll try to arrange for a witness. I may have to pull one up from Carolina Shooters.

Considering the physics involved, I don't believe it'll be as spectacular as most would think. It could well turn out to be much ado about nada mucho.