Up until now I respected Ayoob.

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Well before any love or hatefest regarding Mas Ayoob gets this thread locked down, I'd like to chime in with my one major complaint of the man as a gun writer/expert witness.

A CONTINUAL LACK OF COURT CITATIONS.

One need not be a lawyer to benefit from being able to go to a case file or a court opinion and look up the matter for one's self.

While it is true that no state cases which go unappealed to a higher court get an easy to use court citation, all cases mentioned in his writings allegedly happened in some court of law somewhere on the state or federal levels and would have a jurisdictional pedigree and case number which could be looked up locally by anyone who found it of interest.

Now, I have seen all of the standard disclaimers over the years. Names changed to protect the innocent. Names changed to comply with settlement requirements, changed to protect business as an expert, etc. I consider much of that to be weak tea. All lawsuits, unless they are sealed, are public records. Even when they are sealed, a motion to open them in the public interest could be maintained by either individuals or real journalistic concerns.

Just cite some of these cases in a traceable form Mr. Ayoob and you will shake off a good fraction of your critics. Otherwise, I view him as having something of a Marshall & Sanow problem--i.e. one of reporting "real world" cases no one in the real world can actually find.
 
I think gun magazines in general have a little disdain for the gun forum. For the most part gun forums are a source of *awful* information that just fuels ignorance among the populace. Im sure that Ayoob is tired of people coming into his classes who "already know everything" despite the fact that they havent a clue.

Im not saying that forums can't be an excellent source of information. With the *highly* calibrated B.S. detector, and the ability to find alternative sources, the internet community can be a wealth of knowledge. The problem is just that the knowledge is hidden among a forrest of idiocy.
 
Um... Maybe I just missed it, but we still haven't see whatever it was that Ayoob said. I suspect that others are right with their comments (a generalization warning that the information available on the Internet is put up by *anyone* with *any* motive and *any* amount of basis in reality (from none to perfect)). But, since that's the topic of discussion, I'm still interested in seeing it...
 
What is funny is to read somebody's post on combat tactics and
toward the end realize they are writing from the viewpoint of a
paintball/air soft/video gamer.
 
Ayoob

The situation surrounding the column is this:"Authorities try to determine if a death was a suicide, blameless accident, manslaughter, or murder by replicating gunshot residue." The lessons learned, says Ayoob, are:"Load replicable factory rounds in your defense guns..and don't leave firearms where suicidal people can access them." I suppose factory rounds make it easier for CSI crews, giving them a standardized yardstick for gunshot residue.

The reference to "certain Net Ninjas have been spreading the false belief that no one has ever gotten in trouble in court from using handloads. Now you know better" is the only remotely degrogatory mention of those of us on internet forums.

The column is interesting and Ayoob's remarks, in context, didn't strike me as offensive.

IMO, the man's pluses Far outweigh any perceived minuses in this article.

Take Care
 
I just read the article......

in the May/June issue of "the American Handgunner". I believe Mr. Ayoob once again makes a clear case against using handloads in defensive ammunition.
He discusses several arguments for using handloads in defensive ammo which have been put forward on several internet forums. I believe he argues against this use sucessfully in each case. He does make a disparaging remark about "Net Ninjas", but since I don't consider myself one of those, I'm not offended.
I don't consider any "expert" infallible, but when someone with the credentials of Mr. Ayoob makes an argument, I believe I'm going to give his viewpoint a little more weight.
And this to forum member "Boats": Ayoob gives complete particulars (in this case at least) for obtaining court records which concern this article. (N.J vs. Daniel N. Bias).

Please read the article and then form your opinions.
 
I wrote for motorcycle magazines for about 10 years, mostly Petersen/EMAP/Primedia titles, and watched the quality of the material decline dramatically over that time. I don't talk about this much because there are still some good people working in the industry and I still write an occasional article. Still, I have to say that the quality of the writing in some of the gun mags is so bad that it makes my head hurt trying to read it.

I've always found Ayoob (I can never remember how to spell his name) to be an exception to the poor quality of writing available. In fact, his writing is consistantly superior to most modern journalism. I refer to his articles so often that I should probably learn to spell his name.

On the other hand, I can't imagine disparaging this forum. I've basically abandoned print mags and get most of my info from online sources, and this is one of the best. I've never encountered a greater number of thoughtful, insightful people in one place, and I've learned a great deal over the past couple of years.
 
http://granthamnh.net/police_department.htm

Grantham Police Department Personnel
Full-time
Chief of Police Russell E. Lary
Captain Walter A. Madore
Officer Cara Tibbits
Officer Tom Harriman

Part-time
Captain Massad Ayoob
Sergeant Michael Szelangowski
Officer Robert A. Schwartz

Police Department Secretary
Teresa A. Mastin

*The Grantham Police Department does not have a dispatcher. We utilize the dispatching services of the Newport Police Department for our emergency dispatching.
 
Everyone who makes their living from being an 'expert' at something is feeling increasingly threatened by the web these days.

Political pundits are feeling the heat from bloggers. People who write reviews about everything from automobiles to motorcycles to video games to movies are finding less demand (and compensation) for their services because it's become so much easier for the average guy to log onto the web, do a little Google searching, and end up talking to other people who have driven it, rode it, played it or seen it. The gap between the producer and the consumer is dissolving (that area where the middleman used to sit and take his cut) and the experts, who gave us information (and told us what to think about it) are seeing the value of their opinion, insight, and access dwindle as the audience increasingly realizes that they have the power to figure things out for themselves and form their own opinion.

We all know that knowledge is power, right? For someone who makes their living by having knowledge, then information is also money. It's a pretty scary moment for the apple vendor when he suddenly spots apple trees growing in everyone's yard in town.

So in this case, information is losing its value. Not just because it's freely available and easily accessible, but because more people are realizing that the vast majority of what passes for hard information is just someone's opinion - and that's the most powerful lesson you can learn from internet forums, and perhaps the thing that makes experts most uncomfortable. You mods like to talk about how "incorrect information on forums gets straightened out pretty quickly", and that may be true on the rare occasion when we're talking about a fact (this ammo goes with this gun, that part will fit on this reciever, etc.) but most of the time on here we're talking about opinions, and instead of information getting "straightened out" most forum readers (whether they realize it or not) end up hearing Point of View A from this guy who knows what he's talking about, and Point of View B from this other guy who also knows what he's talking about.

Even if that makes everybody involved a little uncomfortable at the time, it's a good thing in the long run, because it encourages people to get all the information and make up their own minds.
 
'Card

Well stated and very true. The "Information Age" will be viewed by history as an important turning point for the very reasons you pointed out so well.
 
Personally my hat is off to Mr. Ayoob. I once referred to him as “Ayoob the Boob” out of playful spite, taking a shot at the gun expert crowd, which was juvenile and wrong of me, but no serious offense was meant by it.

I don’t read magazines, I don’t really care for the format and there are only so many variations of a 1911 I can stand to see in a year so I don’t subscribe to them. I read books, and I’ve read some of Mr. Ayoob’s books, which are all very insightful and add to the overall base of knowledge made available to the public, he is a producer of work. Like all producers of work, he is subject to criticism by those less educated and talented than himself, or what is popularly referred to as “the unwashed public”. I have tremendous respect for Mr. Ayoob, Jeff Cooper, Marshall, Sannow and though I do not always agree with them, I acknowledge that they have a greater body of knowledge from which to draw an opinion than myself.

As to the internet, what I’ve learned has been tempered by what I’ve unlearned. For instance:

1.) 9mm is too weak for self defense…only a .45, yada, yada, yada.
2.) The “one shot stop” for a _________ is better than ___________. (Traditionally this is based off of some mutated variation of Marshal and Sannow’s work).
3.) The .223 is an ineffective fight stopper.
4.) Shoot to wound, shoot to kill, shoot to wound and/or kill.
5.) Handguns have “firepower”.
6.) Knives are for fighting; don’t use knives in a fight, what’s a knife?
7.) Hydrashock sucks because my cousin’s, brother’s, aunt shot…..
8.) 1911’s suck because they jam.
9.) Glocks suck because the blow up.
10.) Sigs suck because the frame cracks.
11.) XD sucks because they rust and it’s “only” a fancied up HS2000.
12.) CZ sucks because, well, it sucks.
13.) Ruger sucks.
14.) All the above mentioned name brand weapons RULE because I, my brother, my aunt, my cousin, etc. own them/shot them/read about them/think they’re tacticool/saw one in a magazine once.
15.) Cops suck.
16.) There are more members of SEAL Team 6/Team ___fill in the blank then there are sailors in the U.S. Navy running around, but it won’t show on the “official paperwork because they were so DEEP undercover”. Something’s deep alright.
17.) Cops know about guns.
18.) Cops don’t know squat about guns.
19.) Always shoot center mass.
20.) Always shoot CNS.
21.) Always shoot the head.
22.) Never do any of the above.
23.) When getting carjacked, don’t just drive away, you need to do a tactical roll from the vehicle and let the mighty hammer of John Moses Browning rid the earth of vermin kind.
24.) Muslims are terrorists.
25.) Cops are terrorists.
26.) Bush is a terrorist.
27.) The ATF is out to get you.
28.) The U.N. is out to get you.

I could go on and on and on. But I should point out for every truth on the internet, there is a lie. In printed media, (i.e. books) there is bullsh*t, but not nearly as much since not every publisher is willing to dump wads of cash into someone unqualified to offer an opinion on a subject which will sell books. In other words, your cousin’s, aunt’s, uncle’s, brother who once was a SEAL would likely not be considered as being publishable as a subject matter expert, even if he/she/it did have the talent to string a cohesive thought together in print.

Is that insulting?
:neener:
 
There are undeniably plenty of blowhards on this forum and many others, who weigh in with authority on subjects that they have absolutely no knowledge of. In context, I read Ayoob's comment as being directed at them, not at the internet community as a whole. All he's doing is pointing out that there's a lot of misinformation out there and you should be careful not to get caught up in it. Nothing offensive about that.
 
Grump- You seem angry, or are you just living up to your username? In any event, I believe that I do have a CLUE seeing as how I have actually been involved in a defensive shooting and dealt with the police afterwards. I do not offer myself as any sort of expert on anything but I have had experiences which I feel gives me a perspective that I can share on some issues. Also, I have been around the shooting sports for several decades and again this gives personal experiences from which to speak. I figure it's the same with most others around here and I take mild offense (note: mild offense) at some magazine writers who seem to lump all forum participants into a single category and then dump on them "en masse."

As to what Ayoob said, he made mention near the end of the article on the shooting incident to "'Net Ninjas... spreading the false report that nobody has ever gotten into trouble in court from using handloads." The use of the term 'Net Ninja is clearly derogatory and as I said before I believe the past discussions were regarding the use of handloads in a justifiable defensive shooting, and the case he now cites as supporting evidence for his position doesn't fit the criteria.

This forum is like everything else, there's good and bad in it. I am just disappointed at the American Handgunner staff which seems to have a vendetta against all discussion forums. In this same issue Roy Huntington uses the very same term 'Net Ninja in touting a web site he says is a good one, unlike all the others which are bad, according to him.

On the question of whether a prosecutor or civil attorney could ever make an issue of handloaded ammo there is no doubt in my mind that it could happen. COULD happen. Apparently up to this point it hasn't. If I lived in a liberal state where a law-abiding citizen who uses a gun in legitimate self-defense might be subjected to persecution or prosecution I would reconsider my stance. But where I live these things don't seem to happen so I feel safer in carrying handloaded ammo. I don't defend the notion to anyone who disagrees, it's just what I have decided for me.

I know Ayoob means well and is just looking out for people, but it looks like he has joined the rest of the AH magazine staff in holding us in contempt. Too bad. I think they could accomplish more good by using the discussion forum venue rather than denigrating it.
 
We should be poking fun at ourselve instead of wondering why someone else would.

This is just 3 examples from an endless supply from THR, which is one of the best sites on the web.

:scrutiny:
Another tactical thread: Tactical recliners!
Just wondering if any others have what could be referred to as a 'tactical recliner'?

Our community has had some 'crash and enter' events in the last few years. Mostly the homes have been unoccupied, but not always. In those cases, homeowners were attacked in their own living rooms.

I have affixed a pouch on the side of my most occupied recliner which holds 'equipment to repel boarders' close at hand as Col. Cooper might put it. (NO lil kids here.)

Ok, y'all fess up. Any more 'tactical recliners' around?

:uhoh:
The Mall Ninja arose from an infamous posting over on Glock Talk, IIRC. A security guard at the Mall of America posed the question of whether it would be a good idea to tape an extra trauma plate to his back in case a sniper shot him there with a .308! I'm sure you can find the thread on Google or someone will repost it here. It's extremely funny.

:evil:
I hate to say it ...but some gun owners freak me out a little bit
Now and then we get a "new guy" at the club that thinks he or she knows a little more than they really do about firearms and "combat"
More often than not they are young,usually in their twenties and they know the "lingo".....they talk about the S Hitting T F a little bit too often and are very concerned about having the hardware to take a man out at 1500 yds.They buy whatever is the hottest new NAVY SEAL gun and try to inform every one that WW 99 is going to go down sooner than we think. It amazes how they memorize and slip into conversation every common and not so common firearm term and tactical teqnique ever invented.
I sometimes enjoy thier enthusiasm and will listen to their stories of impending doom but when I try to calm them down and suggest that they relax and enjoy life and shooting as a sport ,it seems to disturb them a little?I get a look like (I wouldn't want to be next to you in the trenches)
I guess anything is possible but even if the S did HTF, some of the scenerios that these guys dream up are mind bogling!
Too boot, these guys have never seen combat ,have no shooting routines and can't shoot to save their lives...some are really bad!
When I look at the faces of some of the old Vets when they listen to these kids it is truly priceless.I could only imagine what they are thinking!
On the bright side ...I have over the years seen some of these guys calm down and come back to reality when they get real jobs and have familys
 
My favorite is when internet ninja's talk about a gun make or size being intimidating...like "when he looks down the spout of a .45 he'll know it's a .45".......

I've had a Ruger P series 9mm, an AR .223, a .22, a .380 and a shotgun (unknown type or gauge, pistol grip) all pulled on me or fired in my general direction. Let me go on record saying this...I was "fill your pampers" terrified every single time and it had jack crap to do with caliber or the make and brand of a certain gun. In fact it usually took a few for my brain to catch up with my @$*, which was hauling down the street or for cover.

I'm not discounting the value of a forum, far from it, but there is a lot of crap out there.
 
Oooh, oooh, oooh! Talk about timing!!!:D

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=189568

1.) Lemon juice for the eyes in a plastic lemon squirter (for your Coke).

2.) Hot pepper juice in a plastic squirt bottler (for your cold cut). Next best thing to pepper spray.

3.) Steel cased ballpoint pen (for writing). Or stabbing someone in the temple or eye.

4.) Stainless steel coffee mug. Combine this with a leather woven belt. The woven belt can have a knot tide in it like a rope. The knot can be tied around the handle of the mug. Primitive ball & chain. Wear the belt. You just happen to put your favorite coffee mug in your carry on.

5.) Handy-wipes cotainer full of mortor mix. Put some in you hand and throw it in the eyes of the terrorist as he walks by your seat. Haven't thought of an excuse for this one yet. But its legal none the less.

6.) Brief case (for your papers). Can be swung or used to smash someone's head.
 
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....I'M IN TEARS HERE!!!:eek: :D :what: :D

Wait, I've got some:

1.) how about, sharp pencils. You can use them like deadly darts in the hearts of vampire hijackers.

2.) Poop on a stick....nobody wants to be touched with poop on a stick...you may substitute dirty underwear for poop in a pinch.

3.) Catch the flu and use a stealth bio-attack....they may not get it right away, but when they are hugging the toilet at 2AM praying for death, they'll be sorry.

4.) A roll of quarters and a sock. Dump the coins into the sock and YEEHAWWW, we got us a terrorist smacking match.

5.) Ooohhhh....how about a leatherman....with those pliers you can give the "titty-twister-o-death".

7.) I skipped 6 because it's a top secret Navy SEAL tactic that cannot be revealed here....but seven... a stapler, you can staple the terrorist unexpectedly when they come near.
 
"The titty-twister-o'-death".

I'll be, ahem...*borrowing* that one. Heh heh...

Biker:)
 
I have two criticisms of Ayoob and most of the posters here.

First is that everyone talks about a possible CRIMINAL case growing out of a shooting. But more likely to produce all those questions about gun, ammo, attitude, prior statements, would be a CIVIL trial, and those are growing more and more common. The evidence level is lower, and a few civil trial judges have allowed testimony that would never be allowed in criminal court.

Second is that no one ever discusses the political implications, and especially the implications of race. If the shooter is race x and the victim is race y, it makes a lot of difference if the police, prosecutor, judge and jury are race x or race y or mixed. One way to lose all that self-confidence about how you can do a "good shooting" and get away with it will vanish when you realize that the cops who arrest you, the DA who prosecutes you, the judge on the bench, and the jury in the box look more like your victim than they look like you.

One other comment on talk about a "good" shooting. YOU don't get to decide what is a "good" shooting. Other people will decide that for you, and don't ever forget it.

Jim
 
hso,

You really need to get "automated". I mean even my 76 y/o Mom has a La-z-boy power assist chair. :)

Not sure if a Power assist recliner is supposed to "aimed" or "pointed" ...still I figure between the Remote Control, AARP Magazine, Consumer Report, and lap pillow with writing top...last seen in the seat of this power assist recliner

Hit that button hard enough and ...hey I'd take off running with all that stuff flying in my direction. Wouldn't you?

That is if they make it past the fridge. Never knew they made Tactical Italian dressing, everytime I open that fridge - My foot gets attacked.

She also has a Tactical Automated Garage Door Opener. Funny, when I had the guy install this to replace the manual one - he didn't say a word about it being Tactical.

Well I was wondering if mom was home as walked up the drive toward porch...door comes up...I jump back ...I founded her.

Rumor is a new magazine is coming out : *

TWIC Tactical With Internet Connection.

What you misconstrue - others will believe.

---

Seriously

Now besides the reasons for getting a Power Assist chair and Automated Door for Mom's age and health reasons...

The ability for Mom to get down into and out of a chair is important in the event of a fire, or someone does in fact attempt to break in on her. We have had some fires and home attacks and the elderly could not get up out of a chair very well and suffered...

Garages means nobody knows if you are home or not. If mom comes in she can enter her garage safely and thus be in a safe zone of garage where before she was vulnerable to be attacked in the driveway messing with a manual door.

Again, we have had attacked in yards, and in driveways ...

One does have to believe me , or disagree...be kinda nice if you did THINK about any aging parents, grandparents or folks close to you and any physical limitations they may have.

Kinda what I suspect Ayoob would appreciate, just folks thinking.






*Apologies to Rich, Denny , Staff and Contributors of SWAT
 
I think Mr. Ayoob's sentiments are being trashed a little here. This guy has been an expert witness more times in one year than most of us will ever be in, in any capacity. I think experience is on his side. My interpretation of the article is that, "not everything you hear on the internet is true." I agree with him completely.

So has anyone here ever heard of someone getting reamed in court because they used handloads in the commission of an act of self defense? We all know that the chance of getting sued after being involved in a shooting is a real threat, but under what circumstances? Here's one: Is it possible your handloaded bullet overpenetrated and killed a bystander?

So, imagine yourself going into court to face criminal charges for a self defense shooting. You naturally believe you were justified to whack the robber at the gas station. But the prosecution doesn't believe so. So you get in there, and guess what they have for evidence: your computer, with records of hanging out on gun forums, reading gun sites all day, writing articles about guns and SHTF scenarios, buying reloading supplies, survival gear, ammunition. You think this isn't going to be used against you? You're going to be painted as a gun-toting vigilante-cowboy out for blood, both in court

What Mr. Ayoob's words mean to me is "If you're going to get advice about CHL, guns, ammunition... get it from someone who can back you up in court." If I get in a shooting, you bet your butt I'm going to get a good defense expert witness, hell maybe even Mr. Ayoob himself.
 
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