Up until now I respected Ayoob.

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[QUOTE='Card]Everyone who makes their living from being an 'expert' at something is feeling increasingly threatened by the web these days.[/QUOTE]+1

A good example was Clint Smith's column denouncing as "turd suckers" those legions of ignorant fools who had the audacity to question any aspect of the wonderful synergistic perfection his TR Special S&W revolver design embodied. :rolleyes:

Ayoob's comment about net ninjas is mild by comparison.

To a large extent, in my eyes, forums like THR are opportunities to share opinions with group of people having similar interests and a great variety of life experiences.

When opinions are posted, counter-opinions invariably follow, and to a large extent, errors in any "message" are self-correcting; state something outlandish (Example: "I think 20 grains of Bullseye is a great .44 Special load") and there will rapidly follow a large number of responses warning that such a loading would be, shall we say, ill-advised, with quotes from various sources showing that such a load is FAR in excess of ANY recommendation found in ANY reloading manual, and such a load would be a recipe for disaster.

I see no such immediate "error-correction" mechanism in the gun print media. In fact, even corrections of a purely editorial nature are rare.

If a particular writer is favored by the magazine editor, his opinions will be given a lot of play . . . and if he occasionally contradicts himself, well, who's going to point it out in the same magazine? That might diminish his stature as a writer, and readers might get the idea the guy doesn't actually walk on water . . .

Not so in forums like THR . . . some criticisms may be off base, but again, the medium, thanks to lively discussion, is largely self-correcting.
 
Being that some of the moderators, by now, have come to regard my posts with a certain sense of dread... for my wit is a bit sharp to the (overly-)sensitive... I nevertheless feel compelled to speak in defense of Mr. Ayoob.

I get the impression that some people tend to confuse Mr. Ayoob's honest errors or demonstrable differences of opinion, for a malicious effort to disseminate factually incorrect information. I doubt that is the case.

Additionally, seeing much wailing and gnashing of teeth at the very idea that Mr. Ayoob might speak critically of the internet forums...a venue that sometimes functions as nothing more than a haven for the chronically verbose, to engage in what they do best: spread unfounded rumor and baseless critique... would it not be reasonable for a man to defend himself under such assaults, or engage in a bit of counterattack?:scrutiny:

...or perhaps, it is that I am stark raving mad... and badly in need of a palliative of "the brand name which is not to be mentioned"...:rolleyes:
 
[thread hijack]

pax:
But ask one of these guys if he shoots other people's reloads, or allows other people to shoot his reloads? The usual answer is a very emphatic NO, usually with a cuss-word prefix. After all, the reasoning goes, there's no quality control for the other guy's stuff. And no one wants to take the liability risk of blowing up someone else's gun.
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Here's one good reason for that, pax.

I recently had occasion to work up some loads for my Chiefs Special. I wanted to go slightly lighter than +P. So the manual gives a starting load of 4.9 grains of powder and a max load of 5.7. Well, me being me, I started out at 5.4 (go ahead and flame, fellow reloaders, but thats the way I've always done it).

Anyway, five rounds of the 5.4 load felt like .357 mag out of my snub, way too hot! I backed off to 5.2 and got exactly what I was trying to get. No, I didn't chrono either load, but I grouped them, and just compared the recoil and muzzle blast to my (known) light practice loads.

Point is, a safe load in my gun may be too hot for your gun.

[/thread hijack]
 
i hold ayoob in high regard,he has taught me much but i bet he will be the 1st to admit he is only human.imo tho he knows his stuff.

i am with alot of comments on the sorry state of gunrags and the internet pushing them to the back of the bus.ive seen guns and ammo go from a awesome mag into a shill rag for the equipment makers and its been years since i bought 1.i had a sub with them from1982-1998.

there are still a few mags i read out on the road(trucker)but when i finally get a laptop,,,,,,,,,,,
 
WAIT A SEC......

Mr. Ayoob insulted FORUM POSTERS????

HOW DARE HE!!!!!!!!




that's OUR job...:p
 
Well, I personally wouldn't let that bother me. I've been insulted by the best.;) I've read him for a great many years in the magazines I used to subscribe to. I happen to agree with him on reloads, and don't carry my own, though I'd really love to. I like Mas. Guess I always will.
 
One of the moderators mentioned that Mr. Ayoob is a member of THR.

There is that saying that on the Internet no one knows if you’re really a dog.

On several forums I frequent there are what seems to be well known persons in that particular forum subject. I wonder if there are times when someone could fake or imply the identity of a famous person or known expert. Also I tend to use the same user name on different forums but nothing would stop someone else from joining a forum and using my commonly used user name (not necessarily out of malice) and causing identity confusion. I often run into other High Road folks on other forums.

When a well-known expert, author, or famous person signs up on the High Road is there a way that their identity is confirmed? I guess there are well-known people on this forum that choose to keep their true identities private.
 
i bet he will be the 1st to admit he is only human.
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He is. I've spent time with him, and he's quick to lay out "here's the facts, here's my opinion, do what you like; if I'm wrong, let me know." Too many people confuse publication & well-formed opinion with something other than humility.
 
Yuppers jamz, your sig defines my women as a single man minus the condoms and squirrel covers.
Biker:cool:
 
It's not necessarily about "trusting" the man. Check his stuff out and use it to form your own ideas. Agree or disagree, it makes you think for yourself.
Me? I would recommend "In The Gravest Extreme" to everyone, CCW or not.
JMO...
Biker
 
When a well-known expert, author, or famous person signs up on the High Road is there a way that their identity is confirmed? I guess there are well-known people on this forum that choose to keep their true identities private.
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In this case, I've talked with him face to face about THR. I think that's really sufficient.

pax
 
When a well-known expert, author, or famous person signs up on the High Road is there a way that their identity is confirmed? I guess there are well-known people on this forum that choose to keep their true identities private.
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Mas actually addressed the points about his theories on self-defense ammunition in the big thread we had on that topic a few months ago.
 
The main issue shouldn't be whether gun magazines are generally better than gun boards here, since that really isn't the point, and we all pretty much know the score. Occasionally, online, in print, or in person, one will encounter what appears to be a ranting lunatic, and we're all pretty well equipped to filter those rantings out on our own.

That aside, sure, you can get excellent technical information and advice tailored to your particular situation/question on the internet. A layman may attempt to explain federal or local laws on a gunboard, but generally it would be a very poor idea for an attorney to do so. If I comment in Connecticut replying to a poster in Connecticut, and you read it in Montana, am I practicing law in Montana without a license? The answer is, it depends.

Expert witnesses and instructors might see more trials in more places per year than I'd ever dreamed of taking the bar exam, and their commentary is valuable, relatively unrestricted, and possibly free if you read it online. Take it or leave it, it's food for thought. They aren't where I'm going to go for .40-82 WCF load data, but by the same token, I'm not going to try to subpeona every THR member into court to testify that I'm a nice guy if I ever have to shoot someone.

Mr. Ayoob is, primarily, a firearms trainer, with a concentration in firearms and the law. Secondarily, he is a part time LEO. Writing his columns is clearly not his main revenue stream. Again, take it or leave it as you choose, and if you've considered an idea you determine to be stupid idea and rejected it, then you're the better for it. If it's a good idea, then you're better off as well.
 
Up until 9 months ago I had never owned a gun in my life. I had shot guns occassionally, but they weren't of any real interest to me. Now I own a fair selection of both handguns as well as rifles and I would say I've become relatvely knowledgeable on the wide range of disciplines involved in this hobby/sport.

In the process of trying to educate myself about my hobby Mas Ayoob was one of the first writers I began to pay attention to. Like most people we figure if a guy is published he must know a thing or two. That's true in a lot of respects, but it's certainly not a hard and fast rule.

My lifelong expertise is in computers. That discipline too has many respected writers in the vein of Mas Ayoob. Over time in any discipline you come to be able to differentiate "expertise" from "opinion", and that's not always easy. I respect Mas Ayoob's expertise, but not necessarily all of his opinions that are drawn from that expertise, and I think that's where many folks get upset with writers like Ayoob or Clint Smith. Not because of their expertise...but because of their opinions.

Personally, I'll come to my own opinions, because I think I'm smart enough to do that. I'm not offended by Ayoob's opinions. He's entitled to have them. I'm only offended if he denigrates my opinions because they differ from his. ANY writer that does such a thing destroys their credibility and isn't worth listening to because they assume by doing so that their readership consists of morons who are incapable of making their own decisions.

As I said, I pay attention to people like Mas Ayoob's expertise on certain things..but I also pay as much, if not closer attention to some of the expertise and opinions of standard, everyday posters on forums like this who's experiences and life situations I feel come closer to mine than do Ayoob's. As time has gone on I find I pay less and less attention to what Mas Ayoob might have to say. That's not a slam against him, it's just that I've come across more credible sources, particularly in the area of gun laws and jurisprudence which tends to be his primary area of expertise.

I've come across LOTS of writers in gun magazines that I give no more credibility to than some of the tin-foil types that I find in forums. I can ignore a bad writer. I can't ignore a publisher that consistently uses bad writers. I'd personally rather have a forum like this where I can separate the wheat from the chaff on my own.
 
A layman may attempt to explain federal or local laws on a gunboard, but generally it would be a very poor idea for an attorney to do so.
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One of the great things about this forum is that often someone will point you to the exact spot on the official state website that answers your legal question empirically. No opinion needed.

My opinion of the enthusiast magazine industry is probably clouded by the fact that I wrote for magazines published by the same company that publishes "Guns & Ammo" for about ten years. I watched the quality of most of those titles disintegrate during that time, mostly because of too-cozy relationships between the publisher and the advertisers. In fact, the current publisher of the group I worked for has no publishing experience; he came over straight for the company's advertising department. As a result, most of the titles have not "evaluated" a product that they did not love since before I quit writing for them. I have met the folks who used to run "Guns & Ammo" in the old days but don't know the current regime or how the group works, but judging from the content, it looks to me like Primedia is forcing its abominable publishing practices down that group's throat just as it does every other group of titles. The company seems to want to bleed every penny from its previously respectable titles, then sell the mummified carcasses for whatever it can get.

The only time I will spend my own money on a gun magazine is if it has a meaty article by Ayoob. I still enjoy his work, in spite of the atrocious state of the industry in general.
 
It's not necessarily about "trusting" the man. Check his stuff out and use it to form your own ideas. Agree or disagree, it makes you think for yourself.
Me? I would recommend "In The Gravest Extreme" to everyone, CCW or not.
JMO...
Biker
Click to expand...

Not just your opinion; mine, too. I have attended several of Ayoob's courses. He puts forth ideas. Some are almost obvious, and you wonder why you didn't think of them first. Others are testable theories - some are tested during some of his courses. Yet others are still debated. Ayoob is not a shrinking violet, but he is not dogmatic. I suspect that he has been influenced by evidence on a few issues over the years.

Anyone who ignores Ayoob is missing a lot of valuable input.

As far as "blasting" the internet, I think that most of us who know much of anything at all have been amazed by some of the unadulterated bovine excrement that has appeared from time to time on almost any website open to the public. That this is occasionally also true of the gun rags does not change that fact. It is inescapable and probably inevitable. For Ayoob to comment on it does not necessarily reflect poorly on him.

JM $.02.

520
 
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