What do you think you might do ?

[KarenTOC]

@KarenTOC
You were mugged in DC---so what happened????? What did you do??
What is a seasoned shooter??

seasoned shooter: someone who has been around long enough to be able to hit what he aims at, is confident in his abilities, never feels the need to prove himself to others, and never claims more skill than what he has.

mugged in dc: long story short... purse snatcher grabbed my shoulder bag. Instead of letting him have it, as I always assumed I would, I hung on to it. I began hitting him with my "briefcase" (glorified tote-bag), and never uttered a sound (witnesses therefore assumed it was a domestic quarrel). When he threatened to shoot me, I let go of my purse and he ran off with it. I never saw his gun; he reached around to his back picket with his free hand and said "I'll shoot you!." I decided to take him at his word, and released my hold on my purse. He ran away, looking over his shoulder to see, I guess, if I were chasing him (as if!). To this day, I wish I had said "let me see the gun and you can have the purse." I also realize that would have been a stupid thing to do.

Prior to that, I assumed I'd let the BG have whatever he wanted and scream like a girl. I think I recognized, subconsciously, that my attacker was an incompetant idiot. Maybe that's why I fought. I'll never know. Would I fight now? I assume yes, since I did before. But I've been wrong before...

 

[Old Shooter]

So mayby a throw down $20 bill will work

Mayby a throw down wallet will work.

If those don't work, just mayby that Kel-Tec/Smith/Colt/Bersa/whatever will be the last chance you get.

Mayby 80% of the time nobody gets seriously hurt but I haven't won the lottery yet either.

I would do whatever I could to stall for time, keep the BG happy and if it goes that way, fine. But I would be looking for an oportunity to draw my weapon and defend myself if it seemed not to be going well.

I say that never having been in that situation and hope never to be so. I may just mess my pants and cry so badly the BG just walks away in disgust.

If that happens tho.. I'll never post it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Neither can the BG [outrun a hail of bullets]; If both guns are out, the better trained & practiced is more likely to survive.

"If both guns are out"? That's not the scenario. His gun is pointed at you. Yours is in your holster.

Care to think again???

 

[Dravur]

I'd push the button that instantly changes my normal clothes with my Batsuit.

Then I would proceed to thrash the culprit to within an inch of his life. I would pick his now bleeding form up by the collar and I would pull his face to mine and say...."I'm Batman"

Then he would turn to a quivering ball of goo and I would head on down to the Waffle House in the Batmobile for a nice meal.

Seriously.... Why in the world would I sit around and make up scenarios that I could then either lead a Walter Mitty existence or plan for the unplannable. I guess I should probably prepare for that great pirate attack soon to hit the Denver area.

Or.... even better. I rewrite the scenario so the Kobayashi Maru doesn't happen and I go off and command my own starship.

 

[navyretired 1]

If you beleave you won't be shot if you comply you would fit right in with the Nazi's telling the Jew's their going to a work camp.
BG's do not mind shooting you after you hand over valuables, one less witness, if you assume the role of victum/target.
If I'm to die I'm taking the SOB with me, besides training and muscle memory can work in your favor in a draw against a BG who must react to your smooth practiced draw of a ready weapon. I say ready as too many people recommend an empty chamber to be safe. There is no safety in a empty gun, just leave it home if you don't want it ready.

 

[mljdeckard]

There's a difference between resigning yourself to the will of your attacker and waiting until you know you have the advantage.

 

[Brian Williams]

Wow, what a bunch of crap. I was recently in Cambodia and was robbed of my nice DSLR. It happened way too fast to do anything. The camera was gone and around the corner before I knew it was taken. TRAINING is important, according to those I know who have gone thru a bunch of Force on force and other training I am consciously incompetent. This means that I know I don't have the muscle memory and skull sweat put into place to be effective in a hot situation. Am I training, not as much as I could and should.

Get off the keyboard and get some real Force on Force training and get shooting.

 

[Brian Williams]

Oh, By the way. your scenario sucks, but some have answered correctly that stuf hits the fan differently all the time. So plan, train and train and then train some more.


And pulling your gun out and shooting everything is not always the right thing to do, they don't call me yellow for nothing, cause I am still alive.

 

[308win]

There's a difference between resigning yourself to the will of your attacker and waiting until you know you have the advantage.

Exactly and: or recognizing that the attacker has reached a decision to shoot you. I am sure many of us who have had to read people as part of our jobs would probably get that gut feel that this is about to get even worse. I have spent years reading people and have had some pretty good training in non-verbal communications over the years. I believe this along with a person's innate sense of a situation would give some warning except in situations where you are dealing with a sociopath then all bets are off and your luck has run out.

 

[HOWARD J]

@ Brian Williams
So my scenario sucks.........
Here's another guy that never lived in Detriot........................

 

[MariusDP51]

I suspect some of us have not been shot at...

I'm with stupid, I'd fight back. Exectly HOW, depends on the situation and the demeanour of the perp. In this case, I'd back away as fast as possible while drawing my gun. A moving target putting distance between himself and the shooter becomes really difficult to hit. I'd take those odds.

Here in SA the perps will kill you for a dollar's worth of rands...or less.

 

[mrokern]

A moving target putting distance between himself and the shooter becomes really difficult to hit.

Correction, a LATERALLY moving target putting distance between himself and the shooter becomes more difficult to hit.

Simply backing up doesn't put you out of the line of fire.

-Mark

 

[Bovice]

lol @ brian williams

The scenario sucks? Really?

You aren't going to be able to pick and choose when/if something bad happens to you. Suck it up, big guy.

 

[mrokern]

Pardon the thread drift for this newbie question, but do seasoned shooters really use expressions like "packing heat" and "the cannon in my holster?" I've only ever heard those used tongue-in-cheek.

No. Not anyone with any real experience that I've ever met.

 

[MariusDP51]

Mark, "back up" might suggest moving in a straight line. I actually said "back away", assumption is the mother of all...

But your critisism is welcomed, even if it's just for the benefit of others.

 

[mrokern]

Mark, "back up" might suggest moving in a straight line. I actually said "back away", assumption is the mother of all...

But your critisism is welcomed, even if it's just for the benefit of others.

Fair enough. Just trying to make obvious to all the point that the key to being a difficult target is lateral movement over distance, with the preference being to combine them.

You won't be able to increase the distance quickly enough on a drawn gun (or even a holstered one against anyone with any ability) to drastically improve your odds, but even a foot or two to the side requires your attacker to re-acquire and waste time.

-Mark

 

[Kleanbore]

Get off the keyboard and get some real Force on Force training and get shooting.

Excellent idea!

I'm signed up for a practical pistol course next month that will involve firing after drawing from concealment. A friend who took the course a year or so ago says he fired around 1,200 rounds during the training and improved both his speed and his accuracy by about 30%.

In the meantime....

Those who somehow think they could actually prevail against someone who already has the drop on them should try four things...

1. Have several people with their unloaded guns drawn and leveled pull the trigger upon hearing or seeing an external stimulus, and time them with a suitable device
2. Compare the mean, median, and extreme times from that exercise to the nominal 1.5 second time needed to draw from open carry that is assumed in the Tueller Drill and in police training
3. Upon seeing or hearing an external stimulus, draw their unloaded guns several times from concealment and pull the triggers , while making a video record of the exercise
4. Compare the times elapsed in Step 1 with the times elapsed in Step 3

I think that should illustrate the folly pretty convincingly.

Just for fun, one could also point his unloaded gun at the screen and pull the trigger, and note just how far along the person in the the video has progressed in drawing before the hammer or striker falls.

It will not eliminate the need for training for those to whom preparing for self defense means more than engaging in keyboard recreation.

One other thing to program into one's brain: when the immediate threat has passed, so too has the justification to use deadly force. Don't look for an "opening" that occurs after the perps start to drive away.

 

[MariusDP51]

Btw, take a novice (most thugs are not much more than that) to the range and watch him try to hit a stationary target from a solid "base" from only a couple of feet away. Most of them struggle to hit the broad side of a bus at 10-15m.

Add some movement to the target, even just a backing up movement, and watch a novice try to find his/her sight picture. I have seen a police reservest struggle to hit a stationary target a couple of feet away, while he himself was slowly on the move. He tried to aim using his sights...

I have been shot at, both by novices and so-called trained persons. As a moving target, I was (by The Grace) hit by neither.

Imo, if you do get hit in this scenario while backing away quickly, the perp got lucky.

 

[MariusDP51]

Point well taken, Mark.

 

[Brian Williams]

The Scenario sucks, Yes, Loads.
Here is why:
What kind of street am I on?
Did the car come from in front or the rear?
Is the guy on the same side of the car as you or the other?
Is it dark or light out? If dark, street lights?
Busy or empty street or alley?
What is behind/beside me?
Are there any business open?
How far away is the guy? 3ft or 30ft?
What kind of gun and how is it held?
Is the guy shaking(scared), Angry, Frustrated?
What am I wearing, a jacket or a heavy coat?
Do I have my throwdown money clip/ wallet?
Do I have my 642 in my pocket or my S&W 13 or 65 IWB.
Too many variables left out to know what to do in this situation is why this scenario sucks.
Nope, never lived in Detroit, still watch what goes on around me. Had 2 shooting within 50 yards of my house in the last 3 days. How many on your street?

You aren't going to be able to pick and choose when/if something bad happens to you. Suck it up, big guy.

Nope, I can't pick and choose but I need to know a little more before I pull out a gun and get shot in the process.

 

[AKElroy]

"If both guns are out"? That's not the scenario. His gun is pointed at you. Yours is in your holster.

Care to think again???

You are wlking down the street--your cannon is sitting quietly in your
holster. You are alone ( family is at home )
A car quickly pulls up beside you-a man jumps out with his gun pointed at you. He says" give me your money or I will kill you"
Do you hand over your money or do you take a chance & draw your weapon ?

I reject the notion that I am not going to be placed on alert when the car comes to a stop next to me, a door opens, and an armed guy gets out all without me having any opportunity to take a defensive posture. You are not the OP; If you want to craft a scenario where I have a gun in my face while mine is in my holster, then start a new thread & rock on.

If you want that answer, i have already provided it, but here it comes again. The instant I see a gun, I am going to draw, evade, and fire. I might get shot, I might miss the guy 9 times, I might crap myself & have him die of laughter. This is an opinion thread, and that is mine based on the VERY limited info offered by the OP.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Excellent idea!

I'm signed up for a practical pistol course next month that will involve firing after drawing from concealment. A friend who took the course a year or so ago says he fired around 1,200 rounds during the training and improved both his speed and his accuracy by about 30%.

In the meantime....

Those who somehow think they could actually prevail against someone who already has the drop on them should try four things...

1. Have several people with their unloaded guns drawn and leveled pull the trigger upon hearing or seeing an external stimulus, and time them with a suitable device
2. Compare the mean, median, and extreme times from that exercise to the nominal 1.5 second time needed to draw from open carry that is assumed in the Tueller Drill and in police training
3. Upon seeing or hearing an external stimulus, draw their unloaded guns several times from concealment and pull the triggers , while making a video record of the exercise
4. Compare the times elapsed in Step 1 with the times elapsed in Step 3


I think that should illustrate the folly pretty convincingly.

Just for fun, one could also point his unloaded gun at the screen and pull the trigger, and note just how far along the person in the the video has progressed in drawing before the hammer or striker falls.

It will not eliminate the need for training for those to whom preparing for self defense means more than engaging in keyboard recreation.

One other thing to program into one's brain: when the immediate threat has passed, so too has the justification to use deadly force. Don't look for an "opening" that occurs after the perps start to drive away.
Kleanbore is online now Report Post Quick reply to this message

I like those ideas, and have done something similiar with some buddies. But one thing I am not comfortable with is the guns just being unloaded. For that reason, we bought some yellow drop in plastic safety barrels for our Glocks, and a couple of blue training mags. Cost us maybe $40 total each. A good investment to know your gun is not capable of being loaded, chambered, or fired.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by AKElroy: I reject the notion that I am not going to be placed on alert when the car comes to a stop next to me, a door opens, and an armed guy gets out all without me having any opportunity to take a defensive posture.

Your gun is in your holster.

A car stops near you; you are "placed on alert". You may not draw.

A car door opens. By now you are most certainly alert for indications of a potential threat. You may not draw.

A guy gets out. At that point, you notice that he has a gun pointed at you. You are then justified not only in drawing your weapon, but in the use of deadly force.

However, at that point, his gun is pointed at you, and yours is in your holster.

The question is now what you can do successfully.

The instant I see a gun, I am going to draw, evade, and fire.

I think that one can quite reasonably assume, to the likely exclusion of all other possibilities, that the man with the gun in his hand will have in mind the thought, "the instant I see him try to reach for a gun, I am going to fire."

It will almost certainly take you longer to draw and fire than it will for him to fire. That point was made rather graphically in Post #2 by .308win, by the way:

If he has the drop on you your options are pretty limited unless you have a severe affliction of the stupids.

Now, if you would like to test that hypothesis, means were offered by beatcop in Post #37 and by me in Post #67. Try them and see what you think afterwards.

I'm back to the idea of tossing the money clip. Whether I make tracks, pull and use a PepperBlaster, or draw a deadly weapon afterwards will depend on factors not covered in the OP, but in any case my chances of not getting shot would be far, far higher than they would be were I to try to draw a gun on someone who already has the drop on me.

 

[Odd Job]

Can't predict what I would do. Not enough info, much depends on the circumstances.
Not good if he has the drop on me, that's a disadvantage straight away.

 

[AKElroy]

I think that one can quite reasonably assume, to the likely exclusion of all other possibilities, that the man with the gun in his hand will have in mind the thought, "the instant I see him try to reach for a gun, I am going to fire."

Funny, that is exactly my thought when the car comes to a conspicuous stop on a deserted road and this guy gets out.

If he has the drop on you your options are pretty limited unless you have a severe affliction of the stupids.

Guess that would be me, then. I have drawn to prevent my car from being jacked with my wife & baby in the backseat. I have posted it numerous times, feel free to search for it. For me, I am convinced that attempting to wrestle control away from the BG provides the best chance of survival. You have a different view, and that's cool. I don't recall labeling your view stupid, but whatever helps you feel good about yourself is cool with me.