What if a BG doesn't believe you have no money?

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Well contrary to most action movies and media, standard low velocity pistol ammo while deadly is not decisive instantly to a destermined individual that is not immediately shocked to find a bullet or few striking them, whether due to resolve or strong drugs.
If you need proof of that there is a lot of fataly wounded soldiers of many wars both friend and foe that go on to do multiple things (Japanese in ww2 out of ammo would do bonsai charges with swords with some after taking a hail of gunfire (powerful rifle rounds) still managing to take a GI or 2 with them, or germans in trenches returning fire after finding themselves surrounded and riddled full of holes. Or well trained bad guys that also keep moving (1986 FBI shootout suspect Michael Platt is a well known example.) Imagine if westerns were realistic and showed not only the quick drawing first firing guy getting off shots but the other guy then returning fire before succumbing to his fatal chest shots..most of the glory would vanish. In fact just such a famous (albeit single shot) duel took place between one of our presidents and a famous southern gentleman. President waited for the gentleman famed to be an unbeatable opponent to fire (now in the 1 shot only duel the now defenseless southerner must stand there and accept his return shot)and then steadily took aim and delivered a fatal shot. President Andrew Jackson recovered, Charles Dickinson did not.
Point being that if guy was well trained and quick and willing to continue to kill after fatal injuries he could (though untrained punk trying to get easy money would likely collapse groaning or holding injuries for last seconds of life instead) if you relied on the gun as a magic death wand. Remember it is a tool that makes defense easier, should not be sole defense. Also most people untrained in knives likely would only give minor punctures or slashes as opposed to deadly attacks leading to rapid blood loss.

Regardless I personaly in all cases would rather take control and dispatch target accepting risk, than hand control to anyone hostile by cooperating and letting them decide how things turn out. However you still may be screwed if you live in a bad state or country afterwards where you get to know you were right from prison..and be unable to legaly own any firearms if and when you get out. So proactive responses won't make as much sense to average sheep like jury member, while reactive responses tend to be more relatable. Meaning that tossing wallet and shooting when he goes for it, or doing the smart thing and gaining distance while bringing out firearm to fire may very well end up with a Jury deciding you had escaped the immediate danger when you shot scumbag.
 
A knife weilding thug is no joke

Most people have no clue how deadly a knife is - especially one with a big (4 inch or longer) shaving sharp blade.

No specialized training is needed to kill and kill quickly with a knife. One good slash horizontally across the belly can disembowel a person. One slash across the throat - even with a folding knife - and you will be dead in less than a minute. The brain stops getting enough blood, you pass out and your next stop is the morgue.

When a thug draws a knife on you, he can inflict fatal wounds on you in a matter of a second or two.

Your life is at stake. Respond appropriately.
 
Back to the original scenario-----the BG should know never to bring a knife to a gunfight. Unless he has the knife literally at my throat, when I go to empty my pockets, I'd also be emptying my Kel-Tec into his COM.
 
Pull and shoot. Talking takes time, friend, and you're facing a deadly threat inside your "bubble".

Thats one of the Hollywood things that is still stuck in people's psyches ... this idea that you should get your pithy comments in before dispatching the bad guy.


Your best bet in any self defense situation (regardless of what weapons you and the BG have) is to explode quickly and violently.

Mark Twain is often quoted as saying something to the effect of "In a duel, get of a shot as fast as possible so as to disorient your opponent long enough to aim your second shot."

The old axiom that "action is faster than reaction" is true, and your best bet is to do what the criminal doesn't expect; fight back. Drawing and firing, even missing, will often confuse your assailant long enough that you can end their attack or escape.


Having been robbed once before, I can tell you that I would rather be injured or killed by the robber than to live through the psychological BS you'll go through afterward.
 
BlamBlamBlamBlam! Stop! Someone call 911!

I really don't want to come across as bloodthirsty or anything, it's just that we're facing a lethal threat, and it's...right...THERE.

Now, hopefully, we've been able to stay situationally aware, and keep our distance, so if we're charged, the BG will already have a round or two in him before he makes it into contact distance...in which case, continue moving offline, and address the threat until he's nonthreatening.

John
 
I would definetly throw my wallet on the ground to distract him at which point I would draw and start shooting. We had a guy recently in MN that fully complied but was still shot by the bad guys. That is not going to be me!! I will fight back!

Remember if you are in a shooting to keep your mouth shut. Tell the cops that you were afraid for your life point out any evidence that you think is important and start then asking for you lawyer. Police officers that are involved in a shooting will often not make a official statement for 48hrs so that they can get all the facts straight with their lawyer.
 
Mark Twain is often quoted as saying something to the effect of "In a duel, get of a shot as fast as possible so as to disorient your opponent long enough to aim your second shot."

Never heard that one. But in Shooting to Live, Fairbairn and Sykes say "...we would ask the reader to keep in mind that if he gets his shot off first, no matter whether it is a hit or a miss by a narrow margin, he will have an advantage of sometimes as much as two seconds over his opponent. The opponent will want time to recover his wits, and his shooting will not be as accurate as it might be."

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I would definetly throw my wallet on the ground to distract him at which point I would draw and start shooting.

I hear that one a lot. And it seems to be taught in some shooting classes. And that means many crooks have probably heard of it, and would just start with the whole "trying to kill you" thing as soon as the wallet goes flying. Or, they'd kill you while you were still getting the wallet, so you'd have only one hand free.

It's probably best to just get off the ****ing X, draw, and shoot until the threat is gone. If I were to try a wallet trick for whatever reason, I'd probably act real nervous (and wouldn't have to fake it!) and "accidentally" drop the wallet at the guy's feet. If he's stupid enough to pick it up, *BLAMMO*. The more likely scenario is he'd say something like "pick that up and hand it to me you stupid ****************************!" At which point I'd move, draw, and shoot while he's busy talking.
 
When I was learning hand to hand combat in the police academy many many years ago, our instructor advised us when facing a weapon threat you are to act rapidly. You need to train yourself to not think, but to do! We were also advised to use the same tactic when someone put hands on you, especially from behind. Instantaneous, forceful response to a threat is your best defense.

That training served me well one particular time, but caused a little mayhem to an acquaintance. I was walking out of a restaurant about 3AM (working graveyard shift) when an acquaintance came up behind me and clapped me on the shoulder. I took instant action resulting in my friend lying on the pavement with a sore hip and jaw. I didn't think, I acted. All he was doing was trying to say hello. After I helped him up, I told him that he should never walk up behind a police officer on a dark street and grab him by the shoulder.
 
As I said in my previous post:

Use your free hand to gain space to draw.
If you are already under attack from the knife wielding thug then lethal force self defense has already been initiated. Use your gun to save your life. No brainer.

However, I have been in many situations where I was confronted by someone with a weapon, like a knife or improvised club. A threat was made. Upon drawing my weapon the BG decided to find somewhere else to play.
One needs to know how much force to respond with. There is a hair thin line there. So far, I have (knocks wood) never needed to shoot a BG. Just the threat is enough.

It is a lot like Poker.

The BG decides his hand is better than yours so he bets his freedom against your responses.
You raise the pot "All-In", my life or yours, by drawing your sidearm. It's a sphincter-test for the BG. Your mind is made up. That's where (I keep saying this) seizing and controlling situational dominance comes into play. If the BG sees a confidant and competant armed non-victim in front of him he will usually decide he has urgent business elsewhere.

In most cases, the BG will not look you up and folds the hand.

Sometimes you meet someone who either through bravado, ignorance, or mind-altering chemicals, is not afraid of a gun or you. In that case they will attack you. Odds are they would have attacked anyway. Should this occur, utilize your training and save your life by using your gun. Simple as that.

There's more to a scenario than shoot/don't shoot. That's why you can't make an ironclad set of rules, such as, "If it clears the holster I'm gonna shoot!" By that reasoning I should have shot about a dozen people already, at least.
 
Jshirley, I'm not saying NEVER shoot. I'm saying, you have to be able to make a snap decision of shoot or not shoot. And 99% of LEO encounters with a drawn gun are no shoot as well. You have to be able to defend yourself effectively and if in doubt and you believe your life is in danger ,do what you are training for. But again, I have so far not needed to shoot ANYBODY yet. I am no Mas Ayoob. But I feel, creating a binding set of rules that is integrated into your training, that you only draw if you have already made the decision to shoot, is going to cause grief one day.
 
If you don't have reason to shoot, you don't have reason to draw. YMMV.
 
John,

I'm not sure that an absolute rule like that works very well. If 1-3 million times a year a firearm is used to prevent a violent crime yet only ~30,000 people per year are killed by all firearms use then there are a whopping number of folks using firearms without shooting people. I wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that you should brandish a weapon without being threatened first, but it seems the numbers alone indicate that drawing without shooting works.
 
It would be nice if every single person in the world carried in a strong-side hip rig and could do a sub-1-second draw from concealment. But most people carry in a pocket or something, and have very slow draws.

In the 99% or so of cases where a firearm saves a victim with no bloodshed, it's probably because the draw was very slow, the crook figured out what the victim was doing, and decided to beat feet rather than try to block the draw and engage.

So the general rule should be to draw, and then only fire if the guy is still a threat by the time the gun is out and pointed in the right direction. More than likely, if the guy is going to stay around and take his chances, he'll already have engaged you hand-to-hand (or taken a few shots at you) before your gun even clears leather.

"Action beats reaction" is a nice saying, but try finding me someone that reacts slower than the average person's draw.
 
evan price said:
As I have preached before, surviving these types of encounters comes down to one thing: Seizing and maintaining situational dominance. You must dominate the situation, if you show weakness or hesitation you will most likely trigger the attack from the BG. Most BG's are used to targets who are afraid, cringing, nonviolent, and never fight back. A confidant, dominant, calm and assertive target who does not comply, takes an aggressive/defensive stance and draws a weapon with skill and knowledge in every motion WILL surprise them in most cases, thus ending the assault.
I'm living proof that this works. After being assaulted once, I became much more aware of my surroundings and learned to trust my instincts. I also started carrying a folding knife.

Some time later, I was attacked by a group of four men. This time, I saw it coming. I dug in my heels (no good avenue of escape) and quietly drew my Benchmade 750 MonoLock, which I kept hidden behind my right thigh. I am confident that the knife was not seen. Yet, the attackers stopped...and we stared each other down for a while. Then they backed off and left me alone.

Somehow, they sensed I was willing and able to put up a fight. That was enough for them to slink away and look for an easier mark.

XXX said:
depending on how far away from you he is, i have 2 answers:
1) if he is far enough where he cannot reach you with the knife, keep stepping back until you can draw and point, then cap him down anyways. he pulled a weapon on you, and you have the right to kill him.
2) if he IS in range of stabbing you and you can get hurt, toss your wallet and make him bend down or look away to pick it up. in this case, you will most likely have time to do so in #1 when he looks away. some people would say to walk or run away at that moment, but if HE decides to stay, shoot him down anyways. if he decides to run after you give him your wallet, well...your going to be one pissed off robbery victim. by all means though, dont chase him down, unless you can pin him and detain him until LEO arrives.
Wow. There's some really, really, REALLY dangerous advice here! Some of this could get you killed. Some of it will get you your a$$ handed to you in court. Be careful out there...
 
1995. My Father In Law and I drove back to Ohio in 48 hours straight from San Diego. We were driving a 1987 Pontiac Grand Am 2-door coupe I had owned for all of a week before the trip.

We stopped for a quick stretch and a sandwich at a lonely rest stop somewhere I can't remember in the New Mexico/Arizona desert. I think it was between Seligman, Arizona and the NM border on I40 but my memory may be off. It was pretty desolate country. We pulled off to let my father in law burn a few Kools (he smoked then, but not in my car!) and eat bologna sandwiches & Cokes.

While we were eating a couple of dudes walked around the place talking to people. They were kind of scruffy, wearing jeans, Tee shirts, denim jackets, biker hats, beat up boots. They approached us and spun a tale about how they were driving from here to there and almost out of gas and could we lend them $20 for gas. I told them, truthfully as it was, that we were driving all the way back to Ohio like the car tags said, and we had just enough money for gas for us, and if I had extra I would share but sorry, didn't have any extra money.

The guys just seemed... shady to me.

There were about 5-6 RV's and a dozen or so cars pulled off. There were people cooking weenies on hibachis and kids playing Nerf football. There was a dry wash behind the bathroom building and I went down there looking for fossils after eating a sandwich; my father in law smoked a few cigarettes and walked around and took photos of the desert. I don't know how long we were there. It was late evening and I noticed it was starting towards sunset and we had miles to go. I climbed out of the wash and headed towards my future father in law.

Then I noticed the two dudes sitting on a picnic table by the bathrooms scratching on the table with a big knife. Then I noticed that the last people other than us were climbing into a big RV and heading out... leaving only one car in the lot...ours.

If they needed gas, where was their car?

At that moment the little alarms started going off. My FIL was waiting for me and said, "We ought to be leaving." and kind of nodded at the dudes. By now they were getting off the table and kinda huddled talking to each other and giving us sideways looks and then started moving in our direction.

I took our blanket we had been sitting on and the bag of food and went to the car. My FIL started repacking the cooler. I noticed the dudes were now walking directly towards my FIL.

I had my Colt King Cobra 4" stainless .357 Magnum with Hydra Shoks packed rolled up in my sleeping bag. I took it out, tucked it into my belt, and headed to help my FIL, who, to carry the cooler, would have to have both hands occupied.

Dude #1, moves wide around us, trying to get between us and the car. "Hey man, you sure you can't help us with some gas money?"

Dude #2, Keeps bearing down on my FIL. "Yeah, man, we are not gonna make it far down the road."

FIL starts towards car.

Me:"So where is your car then?"

Dudes look at each other.

"Well, why don't you give us a ride then?" says Dude #2, the one I saw with the knife in his pocket, hand on hilt.

Dude #1 is now walking backwards trying to keep between us and the car- this is because we are walking fast enough they can't quite get us seperated.

I slid my jacket open and put my right hand on the Colt revolver's Pachmyer grips and lifted it slightly so that the cylinder was clear of my belt but barrel not quite clear yet...

Me: "Sorry guys, the cooler goes in the back seat, there's no room in the Grand Am."

Dude #2's eyes get as big as saucers when he sees the gun. "No problem man." I see him let go of the knife hilt in his pants pocket.

I turn my body so that I am side on to Dude #1. He now sees the pistol and takes two steps back and puts his hands up. "Hey hey, just go. Don't want no trouble." says Dude #1.

They retreat back to the picnic table. We load our stuff and go. I put the Colt into the center console and we get the Heck out of Dodge. I pull off at the next exit, stow Colt back in rolled up sleeping bag in trunk, and call the law. They take the report on the phone and say they will "Check it out."

#1. A case could certainly have been made that I could have shot the knife man dead and not been charged or convicted of a crime. Does that make it right?
#2. The case could also be made that I could have shot BOTH men dead since they were both equally involved in the perpetration of armed robbery/assault with a deadly weapon. Does that mean I should have double-tapped both of them on the spot?
#3. A lot of people I am sure would have said, Good riddance to this pollution in the gene pool. But I am not God. I used the level of force necessary to end the situation and prevent harm to myself or father in law. Where does the "If you draw you fire" come into play here?
 
"Action beats reaction" is a nice saying, but try finding me someone that reacts slower than the average person's draw.

If your only response to the situtation is to stand and draw your firearm you are correct.

Muggings don't happen from across the street, and your frist reaction doesn't have to be going for your gun.

Explosive movement offline combined with the draw works pretty well. As well as going hands on if the situation dicates.

Chris
 
Mike,

I think a lot of those people were very lucky.

I will agree that it's hard to lay down absolutes.

In general, I certainly agree that using the minimum force necessary is the way to go. Distance does give more alternatives, as it did for Mr. Price in the story he related. If, on the other hand, he'd been confronted at mere feet with an assailant with a large knife, verbal commands would have definitely been the wrong way to go.

John
 
jshirley: Yes, that is exactly what I meant. In the above story from the rest area in the desert I had room to move so shooting is not necessary.

Here's another story somewhat different:

I was cruising a back alley in Columbus Ohio's OSU campus area. I was looking for unwanted cars and people in that area tended to park them along the railroad tracks off the alley. By cruising the area a few times a month I would get to know which cars were untouched month after month and track the owners down to buy them. I had a standard "route" I took that involved several apartment complexes, parking lots, and alleys.
I stopped by this dumpster and shut off my truck because I saw that the guy who owned a particular car I was trying to buy was actually home that evening, which he was often not home, and he had said that he would sell me the car the next time he saw me once he found the title.
I at that time habitually carried several hundred dollars in cash and drove a Toyota 4x4 truck, and a concealed handgun on a Florida nonresident CCW permit since Ohio had no CCW at the time. The only place to park was down the dark alley behind a dumpster. I locked the truck and turned around the corner of the dumpster. There was a guy standing by the dumpster smoking a cigarette as I walked past it and I was kind of spooked because I almost walked into him. He pulled what looked like a cheap steak knife out of his belt and said, "Hey pretty boy gimme your wallet and truck keys or I'll cut you up," and raised the knife up by his shoulder with a grimacing kind of sneer on his face.
At the time as I said I had been startled to walk up on him so I was kind of surprised, it took a few heartbeats for it to click that he was ROBBING me, I kind of didn't get it for a moment. He took a step towards me with the knife held about chest level. I immediately reacted by throwing my free left hand up towards his face in a "STOP" gesture, yelled at him to drop the knife and drew my concealed Sig P239 which I had been carrying in a paddle holster at about 5 pm behind a light windbreaker, while simulteneously taking a step back.
The BG saw me moving, got a confused look on his face and started to say something, but as the jacket whipped back and I pulled the Sig out and started to present it towards him (And this took more time to write it than it took to happen) he realized I was armed, took one quick step backwards and turned sort of behind the dumpster and then ran off down the alley.

My mind had been made up that I would have shot him in that circumstance; it was a direct instinctual moment that I had trained for. The only thing that prevented a shooting was it took a few moments more to clear my windbreaker (like, half a second) than it should have had I not been wearing it; It took all of that half second for the BG to realize I was *NOT* a sheep, was *NOT* going to roll over, and he *WAS* going to get shot. Perhaps he thought I was an undercover police officer or off duty officer; I was wearing a dark blue windbreaker and an LEAA baseball hat (with the LEAA badge on the front) That's all the time it took for him to resolve his Fight/Flight instinct and run away.

In my case, the adrenaline surge and tunnel vision hit me so hard that I turned and walked back to my truck instead of looking up the guy to buy his car. As I started the motor and drove out of the alley I was shaking so hard that I could barely drive and I had to pull over off of the main street (doors locked and in a well lit area) and sit there and pant and let the shakes go away and my regular vision come back.

Reported incident to police over the phone, they took a report, and nothing ever happened.

So, BG with a knife at contact range, draw your weapon, use it to save your life.

Again, there is no way you can train for a simple scenario, like every time you draw you shoot, or every time you draw, wait before you shoot. A confrontation like that is not going to happen twice the same way and you have to be able to make a snap instantaneous decision to shoot or not as the situation demands. Nearly all the time you will find, if you are seizing and maintaining situational dominance and being professional and forceful you will find the situation resolved before you shoot; however there will be times when you have to act instantly to save your life.

Train, train, train.

Sorry to be so long winded on this subject and again I am NOT Mas Ayoob nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but this is what works for me.
 
Use the force needed to protect myself. PERIOD. If that means that some 4 year old girl gets hit in the crossfire, then so be it. Self-defense means SELF defense.

If you do not have the correct mindset, then just don't pack at all. If you care the slightest bit about the poor thug, please don't carry.

Calling BS on that one. What country do you live in man? Cause here in the United States, we have this "Court of Law" system that hands out judgment based on evidence, testimony, defense and prosecution. This is not Uganda, and this is not the movie-version of the Old West. "Kill or be killed" is not the law of this land.

If you care about your life, and the lives of others, please carry

If you care about ending threats to life with the force needed, no more no less, please carry.

If you're out to wax people who you deem to be thugs, you might as well check yourself into the local prison, cause you're no better than most that are in there. And with an attitude like "I don't care if I accidentally kill a child", you'll probably wind up there sooner or later anyways.
 
Bootganger said: Use the force needed to protect myself. PERIOD. If that means that some 4 year old girl gets hit in the crossfire, then so be it. Self-defense means SELF defense.

If you do not have the correct mindset, then just don't pack at all. If you care the slightest bit about the poor thug, please don't carry.

Your attitude is deplorable. I've said this before when the same sentiment was expressed here in the past. The notion of us thinking of ourselves as moral men, ones possessing the character and judgement necessary to be entrusted walking about society armed, is incompatable and irreconcilable with this mindset.


I find this attitude morally bankrupt and repugnant, and reflects poorly on the good men who think otherwise.
 
Bootganger said:
Use the force needed to protect myself. PERIOD. If that means that some 4 year old girl gets hit in the crossfire, then so be it. Self-defense means SELF defense.
That response will get a lot of play at trial by the prosecutor as it displays negligence, recklessness, malice and wanton disregard for innocent life.

Bootganger said:
If you do not have the correct mindset, then just don't pack at all. If you care the slightest bit about the poor thug, please don't carry.
Same can be said to you. Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. I don't remember it from JUDF.
 
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