Scout Rifles

[Malamute]

I would've SWORN the original criteria by Cooper dictated the ability to take game up to 400 kilos at a maximum distance of 400 meters, but I can't find that reference.

Its discussed in the link you provided.

 

[rduchateau2954]

Am I crazy for thinking a .35 would make a good scout?

 

[Malamute]

Not if you have need or use for the chambering. If weight is an issue, a 358 will do most of what the 35 will in a shorter action.

 

[Scrumbag]

There's a member around here that has a Ruger GSR rebarreled to .358 Winchester, if I remember correctly.

Now there's an idea! Lots of wallop and most use of 308 case in short barrel...

 

[35 Whelen]

If you're trying to stay within Mr. Cooper's definition, a .358 Win would have a tough time stretching to 400 meters (440 yds.). Otherwise, why not?

35W

 

[Scrumbag]

400m is a long way even with good scope. I think I'd live with being fine out to 250 max. If at further, I'm running or sneaking 'til they are closer...

 

[Malamute]

I thought a 375/284 would be a nice walk-around-where-the-bears-live gun on the short action and standard bolt face (thats most of my neighborhood).

Chambering/range is somewhat of an individual thing, dependent on the user and area you spend most of your time.

The 376 Steyr round of the Dragoon Scout or whatever it was known as, wouldnt be a bad round if one wanted more horsepower than 308.

 

[Sistema1927]

200 kilos, not 400, and nothing about 400 meters. Cooper's own words:

"...a general-purpose rifle is a conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 200 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target."

Source: http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/10/2/throwback-thursday-the-scout-rifle/

 

[X-Rap]

I think Cooper would have been happy with the Marlin or Winchester Lever but the loading and the lack of a robust action (in comparison to the bolt) as well as having little military lineage disqualified them.
The Scout Rifle Tree has grown many limbs since its inception and I think most are OK based on end users needs, the earliest were quite narrow IMO.

 

[Scrumbag]

It's interesting isn't it how different interpretations come about.

You might find lots of interpretations:

UK and commonwealth: Jungle Carbine by Lee Enfield
Germany/CZ: K98 short carbine
Scandinavia: Short 96 in 6.5x55
Latin America: Short 98 in 7x57...

Must admit I don't like forward scopes, and with a detachable box mag not sure I see the point in them.

Scrummy

 

[Molasses]

Must admit I don't like forward scopes

So...good thing Cooper's scout rifle guidelines didn't include any requirement to have one, eh?

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

I really would like to buy a "scout rifle" but I don't need one and they all seem somewhat pricey in that the gun manufacturers are capitalizing on this new market.

Really, can't you claim an old Remington 760 Gamemaster can be a decent and cheap "scout" rifle? It's got iron sights and you can mount a scope. Its barrel is 20" and it's a pump action rifle but it sure seems small and light weight to me.

 

[Sam1911]

I really would like to buy a "scout rifle" but I don't need one and they all seem somewhat pricey in that the gun manufacturers are capitalizing on this new market.

Of course! Nobody really "needs" one. It isn't something you NEED. It is something that has a certain mystique to it because of Jeff Cooper, and because of the eternal desire to have something or understand something that's exclusive -- only appreciated by those truly "in the know." When a manufacturer realizes that they can make a few inconsequential changes to an offering out of their product line and sell it as a mass-market version of this quasi-mythical perfect weapon, to all the thousands upon thousands of shooters who are in on this special exclusive secret knowledge ... well, they've got a goldmine on their hands!

Really, can't you claim an old Remington 760 Gamemaster can be a decent and cheap "scout" rifle? It's got iron sights and you can mount a scope. Its barrel is 20" and it's a pump action rifle but it sure seems small and light weight to me.

Of COURSE! Cooper picked out a few features he liked in a rifle and noodled around with his pals about how to make a light, fast, stalking rifle that worked within common limitations of his day. The parameters he defined aren't anything special or unique or magical, and they don't really reflect much about the state of firearms and optics today, 30-some years later. ANY gunsmith could come up with something that fit the bill, or something even better, but there's just not much need.

Every one of us has probably a half-dozen rifles that reasonably fill any hunting need we've ever considered facing in the field. None of us will ever find himself out of luck, out of a shot, in danger, or whatever else, because he took out his 760, or his 336 or his Model 94 or his Model 70, or his ... whatever rifle we happened to use ... instead of insisting on something that fit exactly into Cooper's guidelines for a "Scout" rifle.

It is a worthwhile goal, but the whole concept is outdated (if it ever really HAD a real-world role in his time, which is questionable), and the arguments over it, and all the hype and marketing are just INCREDIBLY silly.

 

[Malamute]

I dont know that the concept is outdated, likely more misunderstood what the concept even is.

I recall a comment Cooper made in a column ages ago. He was asked what he suggested for someone that couldnt afford extra gunsmith work to get it just right. He suggested buying a Ruger 77 lightweight, putting a straight 4x scope on it and shooting it a lot.

People can indeed get hung up on details, both pro and con of the general concept. The main thing was a light, reasonably powerful rifle that did a lot of things well, was light and short enough to be easy to carry without it becoming a nuisance. As in other gun discussions, people often say things like "This is fine for X range and use, I'll take my one of my other rifles if I were going to shoot longer/shorter/larger/smaller/faster/slower game/zombies/whatever. The general purpose rifle was one gun that did the majority of things a rifle can be used for. What exactly fits that bill varies, but I think people do tend to get caught up in the "Well, I need a short AR for this, a scoped tactical rifle for that, a medium this and that for those purposes.

Actually, as far as marketing, it may seem attractive from a marketing standpoint to suggest a scout/general purpose rifle, but in the end, the idea is not buying a different specialized rifle for every imaginable purpose, but to have one that does a lot of things reasonable well, and calling it a day. To the point, most people dont need to carry a rifle around regularly, or have much real reason to, but we like to feel we are prepared for whatever we think may happen. Its easy to not get the general purpose idea when most of your firearms use is limited in time and scope or purpose. If its a narrow or limited use, its easy to have a specialized gun to fill that use rather than a general purpose rifle that does a number of things fairly well. If you carry a rifle a couple weeks or so a year for deer hunting, some varmint hunting and whatever, then guns that do those things really well are great. If you carry one around a lot on a regular basis, then shorter, lighter, do more than one or two things well starts to look more interesting. For most though, I think its as much a mental exercise as a practical one.

For myself, I could easily not own anything other than a scoped bolt action sporter, and feel I was well prepared for about any realistic contingency, but that isnt as interesting as coming up with reasons to own different things.

 

[Sam1911]

I dont know that the concept is outdated, likely more misunderstood what the concept even is.

Hmmm. That's two separate issues.

I think the concept is pretty easy to understand. It was all the specific limitations and demands that made it sound complex and somehow mysterious and exclusive.

"Outdated" comes from some of the constraints he placed on his choices. Like using common military ammo, which would soon not be very common after all. Or needing stripper clip cuts and a forward-mounted optic, which are hardly a critical benefit these days. Or of it being a bolt-action, which is obviously not necessary. Just what he liked.

I recall a comment Cooper made in a column ages ago. He was asked what he suggested for someone that couldnt afford extra gunsmith work to get it just right. He suggested buying a Ruger 77 lightweight, putting a straight 4x scope on it and shooting it a lot.

And that's the sort of thing folks miss. Basically, it's one guy's (and his pals') ideal as a sort of gun guy thought experiment. One that only minorly (and arguably) rises at all above other very common choices.

And yet, 30 years later we get rants and hot raves about how this or that "IS NOT A TRUE SCOUT RIFLE!!" As if that really mattered.

People can indeed get hung up on details, both pro and con of the general concept. The main thing was a light, reasonably powerful rifle that did a lot of things well, was light and short enough to be easy to carry without it becoming a nuisance.

And if that's all he'd said on the matter, most hunters would have said something along the lines of "well, duh" and not give his ideas a whole lot more thought. But the grave weight given to the specific parameters by all the words and the gravity of the whole "Scout Rifle Conference" of worthies blew it bizarrely out of proportion and gave it an aura of legend that somewhat boggles the mind.

As in other gun discussions, people often say things like "This is fine for X range and use, I'll take my one of my other rifles if I were going to shoot longer/shorter/larger/smaller/faster/slower game/zombies/whatever. The general purpose rifle was one gun that did the majority of things a rifle can be used for. What exactly fits that bill varies, but I think people do tend to get caught up in the "Well, I need a short AR for this, a scoped tactical rifle for that, a medium this and that for those purposes. Actually, as far as marketing, it may seem attractive from a marketing standpoint to suggest a scout/general purpose rifle, but in the end, the idea is not buying a different specialized rifle for every imaginable purpose, but to have one that does a lot of things reasonable well, and calling it a day.

You are precisely right.

For myself, I could easily not own anything other than a scoped bolt action sporter, and feel I was well prepared for about any realistic contingency, but that isnt as interesting as coming up with reasons to own different things.

Shooters and hunters have a few different needs, depending on what sort of tasks they want to do with their rifles. But there is SO much overlap, and so much hyperbole, and so much adherence to Walter Mitty thinking regarding what adventure and excitement each kind of rifle could bring to our lives that we simply are not content with one. Or two. Or three. Or...

"Beware the man with one gun, he probably knows how to use it." Well, that used to be the saying, as goofy as it was.

Now we have to have a rifle for deer, and one for bear, and one for dangerous game, and one for varmints, and one for teaching the kids, and one for youth hunting, and one for long range tactical, and one for short range tactical games, and one for home defense, and a few for historic interest, and a couple for muzzle-loading, and one because it's a bit better than our other one.

And now the only thing our collection is really missing is that one very special rifle which is really, really pretty good at everything. Just in case.