Scout Rifles

[rduchateau2954]

As I try to distract myself from the Wisconsin game I find myself thinking about scout rifles. I really like the idea, however everytime they are mentioned the only thing that comes out is how much the ruger scout rifle isn't a true scout rifle. Why is that? What makes one better than the other?

Distract me!

 

[P.B.Walsh]

A proper scout rifle is lighter and usually does not have a DBM, they are usually top loaders possibly with a stripper clip. Really, they could have taken a standard M77, added a scout mount, and maybe cut a stripper clip on the reciever, and would have had a more proper scout rifle.

That said, the Ruger GSR is a solid rifle that will serve you well, don't get caught up in "its not a real scout rifle" stuff. Get the rifle and have a great time.

Go BSC and Roll Tide!

 

[Sheepdog1968]

The initial one with the laminate stock was heavy and had a flash hider that was considered a bit silly by some. Also, folks were angry it didn't use M1a magazines and ruger should have been a bit more vocal a to why (info was out there). Jeff Cooper wasn't alive to endorse it and many Cooper students are protective of his legacy (rightly so in my opinion). The Ruger scout now with a polymer stock is much lighter and now has a muzzle berak which is a bit more useful. Had this version been the first one, there would have likely been less grumbling I think.

 

[taliv]

some people still shoot lever actions and black powder, or bows and arrows, not because it's the best thing for the job, but because it's cool, nostalgic, fun, or just what they want, with no rational explanation required.

scout rifles are the same. there are better tools available today than when they were invented, but they're still cool, have an appealing appearance, and are reasonably functional. the question becomes, do you go with the classic concept, or make some improvements? and how many improvements does it take before it no longer counts as a 'scout'? imho, it's not much different than compound bows with red dots on them. it comes down to whether you're buying it for the challenge of doing things like they used to, or if you feel like cheating a bit

 

[Sistema1927]

Timely.

I just picked up a Ruger Gunsite carbine yesterday. I have been looking at them since they came out, and couldn't pass up the one at the local toy store.

I had previously built a P-Scout using an Ishapore 2A1 in 7.62, and enjoyed it enough that I know that I am really going to love the Ruger. The Leupold 2.5x that was on the Ishapore is now on the Ruger, and the Ishapore is now consigned for sale.

Both are heavier than the good Colonel's specs, and both don't tick all the boxes, but they work for me. I guess, at the end of the day, that is all that counts.

 

[1911 guy]

It helps to know what the scout rifle was intended to be, by the man who envisioned it and coined the term.

7 1/2 pounds or less

39 inches or less (1 meter) length

forward mounted, low magnification scope with backup ghost ring sights

Shooting sling, rather than carry strap, preferably Ching Sling or CW sling

.308 Winchester chambering

2 MOA accuracy

 

[rduchateau2954]

I ask because I like the idea of a bigger caliber rifle that's light, short, fast, but still keeps that bolt action accuracy. With me not owning my own land I could be hunting whitetails in a dense swamp or open cornfields, elk and muleys in eastern WY, or Bear in the WI north woods.

 

[rduchateau2954]

It helps to know what the scout rifle was intended to be, by the man who envisioned it and coined the term.

7 1/2 pounds or less

39 inches or less (1 meter) length

forward mounted, low magnification scope with backup ghost ring sights

Shooting sling, rather than carry strap, preferably Ching Sling or CW sling

.308 Winchester chambering

2 MOA accuracy

I could be wrong but I do believe the latest Jeff Cooper rifles do not have any open sights.

 

[ExAgoradzo]

Well shoot me now I guess; love the concept as it was by Cooper, and I think the question above, given new circumstances how far do you go to improve the idea. If you go far enough perhaps you get an M4 in 6.8???

The GSR is too expensive for my blood. But the plastic stock one would find a welcome spot in my safe...

Greg

 

[CapnMac]

It's good to recall what the Col. wanted from the rifle.
He wanted a middle/ He wanted a hunting rifle with military toughness.
He wanted a military rifle accurate enough to hunt with.

He had observed that, hunting in the field and being a military scout are very similar tasks. Where a rifle is carried at the ready over significant distances. But needed to be light and compact--lively to use a word--when needed. It needed to hit hard , and hit enough to get the job done.

Col Cooper had taken his scout rifles off to Africa to hunt with. He was willing to put his preachings to the test.

 

[jmr40]

A scout rifle is a lot like a sniper rifle. It can be any rifle you want it to be. Generally a lighter shorter barreled rifle meant to be carried a lot, shot a little and still useful for a lot of purposes. Any rifle you are carrying on a scouting trip is a scout rifle.

Jeff Cooper wrote down a lot of specific details for what he considered the perfect scout rifle. But even he was quite flexible, he both used and recommended a lot of rifles that did not meet his exact specs. Why should we worry if something doesn't meet his perfect criteria. Cooper once said that the Styer rifle he used was about 88% perfect. I'm betting he would say the Ruger is closer than that.

And just because Cooper said it, doesn't make it so. History has proven Cooper was wrong about a lot of things. Lots of folks get hung up on the forward mounted scope. The ONLY reason Cooper wanted it was to use stripper clips for faster reloading of military surplus rifles. On a box fed magazine conventional mounted scopes do everything better. The nice thing about the Ruger is that it gives you the option of mounting the scope both ways.

I could be wrong but I do believe the latest Jeff Cooper rifles do not have any open sights.

If you read more carefully the iron sights were always optional according to Cooper.

While I like the Ruger Scout rifle, and have seriously thought about buying one I decided I would be paying a premium for stuff I had no use for and I could do better. Since I wanted to go as light as possible and have no use for forward mounted scopes or 10 round magazines I bought the Ruger Predator and 3 extra mags. The rifle cost under $400, weighs 7 lbs scoped and is the same overall length. Barrel is threaded so a suppressor or flash hider is an option. Really the only thing preventing this from meeting Coopers specs is the lack of a forward mounted scope which is neither needed or wanted.

I think this is a better scout rifle, than the Ruger Scout rifle costing twice as much.

 

[TRX]

Cooper's original "scout rifle" concept was fairly flexible. Google "Cooper's Commentaries" and you can find online versions of the newsletters where he developed the idea.

As time went on those ideas changed, but they always came down to a very light, short rifle in a major caliber, preferably with a 1x or 1.5x optic, and either with a box magazine or able to accept stripper clips.

Cooper initially said that semiautos would be fine if they were light enough, that 6.5x55 or .303 would be adequate, and specifically mentioned both the Mosin and SMLE as candidates.

The forward-mount scope is the most obvious characteristic of the usual scout rifle. That was because low-power rifle scopes were nearly nonexistent when Cooper originated the idea, so a long eye relief pistol scope was all that could be had. This also cleared the loading port for strippers or vertical ejection.

The original scout idea was more of a defensive weapon than a hunting rifle. His idea was that you wanted the lightest possible rifle if you were going to be hiking through the mountains for four or five days, but if you encountered a bear or mountain lion, you wanted a big punch. Basically, sort of like the rifles professional guides carry; not to shoot game with, but to protect their hunting party with.

If you take Cooper's final configuration as gospel, a "scout rifle" was a particular Steyr model made to his specifications. Or you can look back at his earlier comments. But from the beginning, it was always a very light carbine in a major caliber.

 

[Eureka40]

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/11Scout

This Savage is a nice one. Model 11 Scout.

 

[Art Eatman]

What was found at Gunsite during the Cooper era in "shoot'n'scoot" competitions was that the forward-mounted scoped Scouts won. Faster acquisition of targets.

 

[chicharrones]

Besides stripper clip reloading of converted mil-surps, another thing a forward mounted optic gives you is room on the receiver to mount an aperture sight.

Some scope mount rails like the XS for the GSR overcome this, but with an old school aperture sight, the receiver space was taken.

 

[chicharrones]

I could be wrong but I do believe the latest Jeff Cooper rifles do not have any open sights.

If you are referring to the Steyr, the sights fold down into the gun when an optic is used.

 

[420Stainless]

Well shoot me now I guess; love the concept as it was by Cooper, and I think the question above, given new circumstances how far do you go to improve the idea. If you go far enough perhaps you get an M4 in 6.8???

The GSR is too expensive for my blood. But the plastic stock one would find a welcome spot in my safe...

Greg

I don't view the 6.8 SPC as an improvement since it lacks the punch and range of the .308, but it certainly suits my preferences more. I have both an AR and Mini 14 in 6.8, and they do very well in all of the categories except the cartridge. The Mini is super handy and is my choice for the application. I like the idea of the .308 bolt concept and lust at it every time I see one, but the compact 6.8 appeals to me more.

 

[X-Rap]

I think the Coopers Scout Concept was primarily a SHTF concept in which he wanted a robust reliable light rifle with some redundant functions in critical areas.
I don't even know if the SHTF term was coined in that context at the time but I think he would be agreeable to its use.
I think his concept is somewhat outdated unless you are stuck on the heavier caliber, today there isn't much an off the shelf AR in carbine length can't do that the much more expensive Scout Styer or other faithful custom can given proper optics.

 

[rduchateau2954]

Basically what I'm taking from all this is that it's a concept. Hearing what you guys are saying about a forward mounted scope even that is optional.

My original thought for my all around rifle was an another Tikka T3 in 30-06 or .300wm with either a Leopold fixed 4x or a 2-7x.

 

[jeepnik]

Bolt actions are nice. I own several. But to me a Scout rifle needs not only to be lighter than it's parent, as accurate as it's parent, and still be able to equal the parent rifles firepower.

While the idea of a scout rifle is one you would not try to use in a prolonged fire fight, one never can tell. It could happen and a bolt action with a small magazine capacity and / or fixed magazine puts you at a disadvantage.

From my perspective the Springfield M1A Scout/Squad fits the bill nicely. Yes, it's a bit heavier than some. But the added weight gives you much more serviceability. Some might prefer the shorter SOCOM models, but I prefer the slightly improved sight radius using the irons, and the few extra fps from the longer barrel. The newer synthetic stocks of these models is much preferred over the wood stock. It is more robust and less likely to shift poi under adverse weather conditions.

And here is the reason I went with the M1A offspring. I know that the M14 works. It worked when needed long ago, and I'm confident it will work today just as well.

 

[agtman]

A scout rifle is a lot like a [light-weight, handy] sniper rifle. * * * Generally a lighter shorter barreled rifle meant to be carried a lot, shot a little and still useful for a lot of purposes. * * *.

Modified jmr40's description a bit, but it basically captures how I always envisioned a Cooper "Scout Rifle" to be.

And although the term "rifle" is used, Cooper's specs on size and weight seem really to call for a "short rifle," or carbine-size weapon.

 

[natman]

As I try to distract myself from the Wisconsin game I find myself thinking about scout rifles. I really like the idea, however everytime they are mentioned the only thing that comes out is how much the ruger scout rifle isn't a true scout rifle. Why is that? What makes one better than the other?

It's not really a question of better, just different.

A scout rifle is supposed to be light.

A Ruger GSR, is not light for a 308 carbine, especially in the laminated stock version. The barrel contour is also rather heavy.

A scout rifle is supposed to be handy.

Handiness is widely misunderstood, possibly because it's not quantifiable and because some guys only carry their rifles from the truck to the stand. It means that the rifle is easy to grasp and carry. A Scout rifle enhances handiness because the scope is out of the way, allowing the rifle to be grasped with one hand at the point of balance.



This is from an article in the 1984 Gun Digest, The Scout Rifle Idea by Jeff Cooper, and it illustrates the concept clearly.

The Ruger detracts from handiness by having the magazine project far from the stock, putting the magazine exactly where the hand should be able to wrap around the stock. IMO, the long magazine and the flash hider were added to make the rifle resemble an M14. This has proven to be very popular and was no doubt a shrewd marketing move, but it detracts from being a good Scout rifle.



While the Ruger GSR is a useful rifle for some applications, it's a poor representation of Jeff Cooper's idea of a Scout. This has had two unfortunate consequences: Ruger, who is perfectly capable of building a good Scout rifle, now won't and secondly, a lot of people now think the Ruger marketing department's offering is what a Scout rifle is supposed to be. If only they'd called it the "Tactical Thunder Bolt" or the "Truck Buddy" or something else. Anything else.

 

[MikeJackmin]

Years ago, I bought a lightly sporterized 6.5 Swede carbine, and had a sleeve that holds a small rail installed on the barrel just ahead of the receiver, where I mounted a pistol scope. I love that thing.

It's slender and light and balanced, easy to carry, fast to the shoulder, with plenty of power for anything I'd ever care to point it at. The action is smooth and the trigger is great and I've yet to see another scout I'd trade it for.

The "slender and light and balanced" part is, in my opinion, the key thing, and that's the part that's lacking in so many of the scout-type rifles I see. I also think a .308 is too much for a little gun, unless you really need it - where I live even the 6.5 is a bit much.

 

[Malamute]

Some good discussion so far.

"Scout" discussion often get pretty far off track for various reasons, mostly I believe, because people dont really understand the concept well. Its a concept more than a specific gun. The concept was a general purpose rifle, capable of doing a number of varied things well, including some defensive/offensive capability, without planning on getting into major firefights. He mentioned the scout (in the military sense) being capable of making an a reliable "bolt out of the blue" single shot on an enemy at up to 300-400 yards, then leaving. I believe that may be considered a harassment technique.

One thing about the caliber, not mentioned so far, was it was envisioned that rifle, to be a true general purpose rifle, should be capable of taking game up to a certain size (dont recall the exact number envisioned) which encompassed elk, and if needed, horses (horses can still be considered an item of fighting and warfare in some situations. Killing one decisively from distance was considered desirable).

The forward mounted scope, besides the several things mentioned like carry, stripper adaptable, etc was capable of shooting both eyes open. Most of the rifle course graduates could hit the straight away flying clay birds. Having said that, the scope itself was optional. A scout could be iron sighted if the user was up to it.

A reminder. Cooper didnt come up with the whole general purpose or scout idea himself, which most seem to misunderstand. It was a conference of some of the better shooters he knew, and was a yearly conference over time that finally gelled into the ideas we have today that define the scout of general purpose rifle.

There is a specifc scout oriented forum that discusses all manor of scout-ish things. There is all the basic scout concept information there. Its interesting to re-read now and then.

In some of Coopers writing, me mentioned McBrides book A Rifleman went to War, and some of Mcbrides thoughts on rifles. One story he related was of a captured German that was carrying a light sporter rifle, and had laughed at the heavy military rifles of the day. His was very handy and fast handling in comparison, and it made an impression on McBride, and on Cooper.

 

[chicharrones]

View attachment 731270

That old photo makes me kinda laugh. It's like some guy in a National Park parking lot got chased away by a bear.

I mean, he's not even dressed to be haulin' butt and hurdling logs in the woods. He's got tight jeans which restrict running, let alone hurdling, and he is wearing low top sneakers. Those sneakers are going to get the laces all pulled loose while his socks fill up with cockle burrs. He'd be running like mad while his shoes trip him or come off.