What is Wrong With People?

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slowr1der

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So I normally don't post stuff like this and I know it's long, but I'm more than a little bothered by this. So for a little backstory, my friend who works for a local cable company and has become interested in guns in the last year or so. He calls me the other day, and tells me he's seen lots of guns while working, but he always felt like it was unprofessional to ask if they had any for sale. Well, he get to this one house and he said this older lady had ammo and magazines full of ammo laying around everywhere. By the end of the job he said he finally musters up the courage to ask if she wants to sell any guns. She tells him,"actually I do" and takes him out to this shed full of guns. He said he about crapped himself. Literally 50+. Well it turns out her husband died and then her son unexpectedly a few months ago and she is looking to sell the collection for the estate. He doesn't know what he's looking at, nor have much money so he calls both I and a few other co-workers.

We go over that evening to check it out with him. I know modern gun values like AR's, hunting rifles which she doesn't have much of, and Glocks. Things like that. She has a ton of old military stuff like 30-40 Krags, AK-47's, Mosins, Colts, Berettas, and literally a ton of other stuff I know nothing about. So I'm looking at this stuff clueless, I also get very little signal on my cell phone in her building, so I'm going in blind. My buddies friends make a few purchases and go to the car. While I'm still in shock (I've never seen a personal collection like this) and looking around at what she has he comes back and tells me that his friends are getting antsy and they'd appreciate if I'd hurry up. I feel like at this point they just spent all of the cash they'd brought and want to get us out there before we buy too many of the good deals.

The problem she has had is that she has hired a gun shop to come in and price things. Their prices are all over the place. Some are quite a bit low while others are significantly high. For example $800 on a S&W MP-15 Sport AR, $1,2000 on a Colt AR, $575 on Glocks, but others like a Colt Gold Cup she was given crazy low values like $700, a few others that were worth $1,500 + that she was given prices of $5-600 on. This gun shop must have been full of idiots.

So his friend makes a few purchases. Upon getting in the car they brag that they purchased $1,000+ dollar guns for $600 or so. At this point, I'm thinking why talk this lady down if you're getting it that cheap?

So we leave with me not knowing values of most of these things. I get back to where I get good signal and I'm seeing this same Colt in the $1,000 to $1,200 range Gunbroker. Plus several others she has at great prices. I ask my friend to call her back. He refuses saying it's "too late" and we'll'' go back 2 days later" as that's the soonest he can make it back. We'll the next day, the 3rd and 4th guy that went with us drive over there without us knowing and convince her this $1,000-1200 Colt on Gun Broker is worth less and only give her $500 for it. They also bought quite a few other guns that were fairly priced, and they talked her down a few hundred each on each one.

This really bothers me, because they knew they were already getting a deal at the asking price. Then they convince her they are worth hundreds less. People like me that are shooters went in, looked the sold listings at GunBorker, and offered her about $15-25 less than GunBroker.com, since I was trying to save the transfer fee. I hope this is fair and I felt like it was. I certainly don't want to rip anyone off in a situation like this. Yet these guys feel the need to go in offering several hundred less than she wanted on the guns that were already too low. She said she had several others and had one guy earlier come in and offer to sell guns for her only to claim he sold original Springfield 1898's in 30-40 Krag for $200 a piece. So obviously at this point she has been ripped off numerous times, as she's telling us this, I'm getting upset. I'm a shooter and a collector and I hope no one ever sells my collection off at this price point when I die. I'd rather my family give my stuff away for free to people that would enjoy it rather than to sell it for pennies on the dollar to these guys that are just looking to make a quick buck off of these widows. In fact, this has really inspired me to update my will.

Upon leaving, I let this lady know that I thought she was being ripped off and that these guns were collectible enough that she needed to have them on Gunbroker or a similar site that would gather the attention of collectors all across the country. She said she didn't have time or knowledge to mess with that stuff. So I offered to help her take pictures and list them on Gunbroker in my free time. She said she may take me up on that and I really hope she does. I truly want to see this lady get the most that she can for this collection. I know exactly how her husband felt when he bought these as I felt the same way. Even if that means I miss out on things I'd be willing to pay a certain price for. It really bothers me that she's getting all of these ******** trying to rip her off. It really makes me wonder *** is wrong with people these days? Are most people really this bad? I'm pretty sure that I want to update my will to include that my firearms and other prized possessions either just be given to those with the desire to hunt, or sent straight to an auction. I'm really sick to my stomach thinking that soo many people have been doing this to her. I sure don't want it done to my collection and I sure don't want it done to hers. How do you leave your's in your will? Do you dictate it must be sold, donated, or what? How do you handle situations like this? I'm just really upset at this point and as a collector I feel so bad for what's happening to her. Not only do I not want it to happen when I die, but I know her husband wouldnt' want it to happen to her either
 
Without seeing the collection it is hard to say. The prices you saw on Gun Broker are "optimistic" at best. Street prices on guns are often much less so it sounds like the prices may have been closer to realistic. But when you start pricing older classic guns seemingly minor differences between 2 guns can make a huge difference in price. You had better know what you are doing.

I had an opportunity to buy a couple of guns under similar circumstances several years ago. The lady contacted a trusted friend to help her sell the collection after her husband passed. He was also the local game warden. She wanted them moved fast and wanted them priced to sell. The prices you see online and in many gun shops might eventually sell the gun, but the gun could sit on the shelves for 2-3 years before someone is willing to pay that price. If you want to sell it now it had better be a deal. The game warden called me with a list of what was available and the prices. I bought a Rem 700 Mt rifle and a S&W 44 mag. They split the difference in sale price between what a guns shop would have given her for the collection and what the gun shop would have sold them for. I felt it was a fair compromise for the lady and I got a good deal too.
 
I personally find what the guys did to be scummy and would not personally do it, but it is how the business is to be quite honest. How many of us have gone to a pawn shop and happily left with a firearm that we paid less than half of the value for and then bragged about it on this forum or to friends? If you get down to it it is really the same thing when you get a good price from a pawn shop that doesn't know what they have and an old widow that doesn't know what she has. It seems worse doing it to an old widow, but it is really the same practice either way.
 
jmr40 said:
Without seeing the collection it is hard to say. The prices you saw on Gun Broker are "optimistic" at best. Street prices on guns are often much less so it sounds like the prices may have been closer to realistic. But when you start pricing older classic guns seemingly minor differences between 2 guns can make a huge difference in price. You had better know what you are doing.

I had an opportunity to buy a couple of guns under similar circumstances several years ago. The lady contacted a trusted friend to help her sell the collection after her husband passed. He was also the local game warden. She wanted them moved fast and wanted them priced to sell. The prices you see online and in many gun shops might eventually sell the gun, but the gun could sit on the shelves for 2-3 years before someone is willing to pay that price. If you want to sell it now it had better be a deal. The game warden called me with a list of what was available and the prices. I bought a Rem 700 Mt rifle and a S&W 44 mag. They split the difference in sale price between what a guns shop would have given her for the collection and what the gun shop would have sold them for. I felt it was a fair compromise for the lady and I got a good deal too.
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I agree with that to a point. However, there are no circumstances that a Colt Gold Cup with the box and hang tags on it is only worth $500 and I strongly suspect that she could get more from a shop. Or that original Springfield 1898 30-40 Krags are worth $200. Same thing with some of this other stuff she had. When I searched completed auctions on Gunbroker I only looked at ones with bids and they were about 3-4x those prices. To me offering a price inbetween what a gun shop wants and the actual used value is more than fair, because she does have to move them. I also don't expect people to offer her what they are selling for on Gunbroker. However, knock $1-200 off what the ones are getting bids for. You don't need to knock $1,000 off of what it's worth.
 
That's why I always say I hope my wife doesn't sell my guns for what she thinks they cost.

Kidding aside its no different than people that trade in a car vs doing research and selling it themselves, one could gain thousands or the problems over and cost you.

Things are worth what someone is willing to pay for them so if things sell on gunbroker there are folks that will pay that kind of money. That said, I paid $535 for my last Gold Cup new in the box, been a few decades ago though. So even if she went off original prices, that could be off.

In any case a "good deal" is where both walk away happy. Could have been worse. What if she was a life long "gun hater" and now that her husband and son were gone wanted them all destroyed? Would you offered her $100 each to dispose of them for her? If she agreed would that make you a bad person?
 
..that a Colt Gold Cup with the box and hang tags on it is only worth $500 and I strongly suspect that she could get more from a shop.
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Watch that "pawn stars" TV show. You would be a gentlemen to offer such a price.
 
More collectors should take this story to heart: your guns sitting out in a shed with the lawn mower. It becomes a fire sale with guns going for a song and it leaves the widow eating dog food.

Is that what you want?

Well, maybe not - but how do we get thru the stubborn denial that your guns need to be correctly disposed of after you pass away?

We've discussed this in the past, there is no movement toward a solution among shooters and frankly, it's been going on for about a century or more.

"Just some old guns, ma'am, I suppose I should pay you something for them since they were your husband's and all. I'm so sorry for your loss."

(Wait till I post this up on the forum. What a deal!)
 
Cannibul said:
When using Gunbroker to find pricing info make sure you're looking at SOLD listings. Just because someone THINKS a gun is worth $1200 doesn't mean it sells for that. In most cases you'll find that SOLD listings are 20-30% below what most people WANT.
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I agree. I see people looking at unsold items all of the time when trying to value their items. When I came up with my prices for these things I was looking at items that had actually been bid on and sold. Not things that people were asking insane amounts of money for, but had no bids.
 
jmorris said:
That's why I always say I hope my wife doesn't sell my guns for what she thinks they cost.

Kidding aside its no different than people that trade in a car vs doing research and selling it themselves, one could gain thousands or the problems over and cost you.

Things are worth what someone is willing to pay for them so if things sell on gunbroker there are folks that will pay that kind of money. That said, I paid $535 for my last Gold Cup new in the box, been a few decades ago though. So even if she went off original prices, that could be off.

In any case a "good deal" is where both walk away happy. Could have been worse. What if she was a life long "gun hater" and now that her husband and son were gone wanted them all destroyed? Would you offered her $100 each to dispose of them for her? If she agreed would that make you a bad person?
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I think the last paragraph here is the best answer. I've sold things for less than they were worth because I wanted to move them out or send them to a good home. I made a guy a deal on a 4 Runner that was worth more for parts than as a driver but I knew he'd fix it up and keep it on the road. It's cherried out now and still on the streets. Makes me happy to see it. I've also bought tools from guys at crazy low prices because they knew I'd use them.

Maybe the guys who bought the guns could've offered her more and maybe the widow would have been happy to take the money or maybe it would've confused her and she would offer them more stuff. Pricing is complicated. I think if everyone is happy leave well enough alone.
 
Cannibul said:
When using Gunbroker to find pricing info make sure you're looking at SOLD listings. Just because someone THINKS a gun is worth $1200 doesn't mean it sells for that. In most cases you'll find that SOLD listings are 20-30% below what most people WANT.
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Solid advise. Smart to do this.
 
This is a common story, but it also has all the common pitfalls.

Gunbroker asking prices are not the sold prices. I'll repeat for effect, the price people ask on Gunbroker are not reliable indicators of value or what a piece may bring. You have to join to be able to search realized prices (the actual price something brought). The other issue is that it takes a lot of effort to sell on Gunbroker and get the item to the buyer so be prepared to put a lot of work in.

Gunshops are not always the best folks to set values for firearms. A dealer that appraises will charge for the effort unless they're getting the guns in on consignment for their shop. Free appraisals are worth what you pay for them as a rule.

The easiest thing for most estates is to simply sell the firearms to a dealer as a single lot. This requires some due diligence on the part of the estate in getting a reliable appraisal of the collection. Retailers have to make a profit and take a risk buying an estate so the estate can't expect to get retail for the items the dealer has to sell at "retail". Also, unless the collection is focused and well known the dealer very often has to make an offer that seems low. That's because the dealer can't tie money up for months trying to sell the firearms, loosing profit on the investment every month it goes unsold. The dealer that buys the collection is assuming all the risk so can't offer what individuals picking through it might pay.

Final pitfall, you can end up the bad guy when it takes too long or offers are too low trying to maximize her profit. Your best intentions simply are risky.

Often the best option is to help research the real value of the items, advise her on the few items worth selling individually and then helping her find an honest dealer who will take on the risk and buy the rest at about half of what you think it is worth.
 
Some dealers will only give you about 60% of the street value and they know what that value is. They aren't in the gun storage business.

Sounds like this woman didn't want to be in that business either.:D
 
I've mixed feelings about this. I like a good deal but I won't deliberately skin someone for being ignorant. I'll jump on a bargain as fast as the next guy, but I won't lie about a gun's value if asked, even to get a good deal. It's happened that someone has still given me a sterling deal even after being told their price was too low; they appreciated my honestly and frankly just wanted the gun gone.

So this guy discovers a treasure trove. He calls in a buddy who brings in other people, and then they not only ace him out but lie to the seller. Yeah, scumbags.
 
In general, I believe it's the seller's responsibility to know the value of what they're selling. If they don't want to bother doing the research that tells me they are fine with potentially getting much less. The buyer should not be responsible for educating the seller.

However, considering this lady just experienced the loss of her husband and son I wouldn't feel right taking advantage. I would be straightforward and tell her that I'm willing to buy, but what I offer will likely be much less than if she takes her time and sells them. I'd probably then make her a low offer and reiterate that she could make more. Then it's up to her. She might just want to be rid of them. What might seem like a little fun research to you is actually a major hassle to others. If she decided to go another route and she had something I couldn't live without then I would offer her whatever I was willing to pay.
 
A friend of mine in his late 70's has been selling off his quite extensive collection of guns (100 plus) so that his wife won't have to deal with the problem. A number of his guns are highly collectable and he knows what they are worth so he is selling them at those prices so his wife in her grief won't be taken advantage of by some low life that would steal from his own dead mother. He has kept a few that he still shoots and a friend has told him he will take care of them for his wife. He is an honest and ethical individual that will do what is right for our friend. I have a list of all my guns, which isn't many, and what they should sell for so that my wife can make the decision on what she will take for them.

OP, that guy you call a friend isn't a friend, if he will screw over a grieving widow he'll do the same thing to you given the chance. Scum have no loyalty to anyone other than themselves.
 
  • Q: How much is this gun worth?
  • A: It's worth what money you can get for it.
Or so I was once told.
It does appear scummy, and I'm sure it's happened many many times.
 
I was a sales rep in the industry for a while. I had one dealer that showed me some pre-64 model 70's he had for sale. The story was that a man told his wife that when he died, all her financial needs would be taken care of by what was in a back bedroom. When he died in his late 70's, she went in the room for the first time ever. She ended up asking one of the local PD who was an honest dealer she could trust and they gave her my dealer's name. Seems her husband had spent most of his spare money in the 40's, 50's and early 60's buying nothing but Winchester rifles of various models. He had stacks of them from floor to ceiling in the room. My friends said there were literally hundreds of them in there along with a good selection of Colt and S&W handguns, all new in the box with their receipts inside.
Any time she needed some money she would call him and he would go over and figure out how many of what kinds she needed to sell to fulfill her need.
When she finally passed away, she left him about 50 of the firearms in the room in her will.
Honesty does pay.
 
The reason many folks buy used guns FTF, is because they can be bought for significantly less than what the guns sell for in a local brick and mortar store. When it comes to selling things to settle an estate, from my experience, you can either price things to sell and be rid of it in a hurry, or put a "gunbroker" type price on it and dicker on every piece and it will take forever. Ever have something appraised? The appraiser usually asks if you want an insurance appraisal or if the item is being appraised to settle an estate.

I have no problem with your friend and his buddies buying guns for the best price they can get. It's what I do. As long as they were not truly dishonest and not fraudulent to the seller about the guns they bought. Could very well be the little old widow was happy to see some young boys get some guns as opposed to them sitting in the shed rusting. Some of the post almost sounds like you may be a tad jealous they got some nice guns rather cheaply, while you were on your phone unable to make sure you weren't gonna pay too much. Would it had made a difference if they had gotten the guns for the same price from a crusty ornery old coot like me, or from "This gun shop that must have been full of idiots" ?

If the little old lady really was at risk from being taken advantage of, the gun shop could have low balled her for the whole lot and she would have not know any better. They may have very well told her an asking price and bottom dollar price. The fact this same little old lady had "ammo and magazines full of ammo laying around everywhere!" makes me think she may know a little about firearms. Either way, if she was happy with what she got from the guns, that's was truly matters, as long as she wasn't selling the guns under duress(and if she was having cable installed, it doesn't sound like she was headin' to the poor house).

Doesn't matter if it's guns, motorcycles, rare coins or anything else you collect or accumulate while you are alive, unless you make conditions in your will for it, it will be sold(or appraised for settlement value) for whatever someone else thinks it's worth. In the case of the son's guns(I'm guessing he was over 18), the mother very well may have to answer to his estate for the value she sold his guns for. If it was determined or willed for her to receive his estate, then the guns are worth whatever she wants from them. My gun collection, by item, is already willed to my son's and or their heirs. It is part of my legacy I hope stays within my family. Some of it is part of my dad's and grandfather's legacy handed down to me. Part of the legacy was created by them by how they introduced those firearms to me and shared them with me while they were alive. Sounds like that didn't happen with the widow's family and sad as it is, it happens.
 
There are auction houses that would love to help this woman sell her guns. Of course they charge a percentage, but in my experience of the last several years demonstrates that auction prices these days are very near retail value and some go well above. People go nuts at auctions. The auction houses around here are honest working people with a reputation to protect and don't rip people off. The biggest advantage of selling the lot is they do all the work and present her with a check at the end of the sale. There are a lot of snakes out there who would rob their own grandmother. Gotta be careful.
 
I'd completely forgotten about an auction and I have attended a few myself. My experience is items usually go for more than you can get in a face to face sale because people that go to auctions will let their emotions override their logic and not let that other guy out bid me.
 
To the OP, congratulate your friends on ripping off an old widow who probably needs the money more than the guns. Congrats guys, you've just suckered an old lady who has recently suffered the death of her husband and son.

Real classy.
 
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