What makes a shotgun so much better for home defense than a 5.56 semi auto?

[White Horseradish]

Cost, plain and simple.

My HD shotgun, a Winchester 1200, cost me $100, plus another $80 some time later for a riot barrel.

Anyone want to tell me where I can get a $180 autoloader in .223 that would function at all, let alone reliably?

The best gun is the one you have in you hand when you need it. Everything else is theory.

 

[Zundfolge]

cons for a shotgun, as i see them, compared to AR15:

>you can't suppress them.

Not true, Tony Rumore (Tromix) is building shotgun suppressors now


discussion here

 

[wdlsguy]

IIRC, the basic estimate is 1 inch per 10 yards.

I thought it was more like an inch per yard?

 

[Omaney]

I think that while both would punch a serious hole, my 870 with 3" turkey loads (or 2 3/4") would be alot more effective and probably quicker at stopping whatever I wanted stopped inside the home...my .02.

 

[strat81]

Do the magazine fed shotguns load reliably on a consistent basis? Who makes them?

The Saiga-12, made by, um... Saiga. They are Russian made on the Kalashnikov (AK) action. Never used one, but they have a great reputation. I'm considering one if I don't stumble across a stupid-cheap alternative at a gun shop or pawn shop.


Another thing that hasn't been brought up is maintenance. I'd think maintaining, say, a Mossberg 500, is easier and less particular than an AR-15. However, for the average Joe, I still think cost is the biggest issue. There's also a lot of choices when it comes to 12ga ammo. Personally, I'd be hesitant to use any rifle indoors or in an urban or suburban area. I'm man enough to say that I don't know how I'll react under the stress of a true home invasion and can't guarantee my accuracy will be up to par.

 

[waterhouse]

I'll take that extra half inch in bore diameter any day for close range antipersonnel use, thanks. That plus the fact that I have more trigger time on a pump gun than on anything else I own pretty well clinches it for me. YMMV of course.

+1

I've thrown the shotgun to my shoulder with both eyes open enough times to be confident that I could hit any man sized target, moving or not, anywhere in my house, without even thinking about it.

I guess with practice I could do that with my AR, but I still find myself lining up the sights with that one.

 

[kungfuhippie]

The average IQ in prison is higher than the general population. Criminals arn't generally dumb-they are just wired differently. That said. I got an 870 combo from big5 because I wanted more power than 9mm for home defense and also don't want to use a rifle.

 

[Werewolf]

00 Buck = 1 oz or 1.5 oz of 30 Caliber Pellets - 12 or so depending on the load
04 Shot = 1 oz or 1.5 oz of 22 caliber Pellets - 25+ depending on the load.

Both moving right along at 1300+ FPS

Hunting Shotgun has 2, 3 or 7 round capacity depending and though 2 may bring you up short the 7 in my HD pump surely wouldn't short of anything less than an attack by the Hell's Angels biker gang.

Or you can fire one 5.56mm 55gr (1/7 oz) bullet.

Personally - I'll take the shotgun over the AR any day.

 

[atk]

wdlsguy,

I thought it was more like an inch per yard?

I may very well be wrong, and I'll probably forget to look it up when I get home. Someone else may know of the top of their head

 

[Specialized]

I can tell you from experience that it's 1 inch per 10 yards. At 50 yards, my cylinder bore 590 and my cylinder bore Nova produce identical results with like ammo and distance -- a six-inch pattern. Just under 1 inch for the bore, and then 1 inch for every 10 yards.

Interesting stat on prison IQ's, where did it come from? Someone would have to prove that to me. I know some of the very bright are also very twisted, but I'm not buying an assertion that it's a majority. If you could find the source of that statistic, I'd appreciate it. Always good to have my paradigm shifted.

 

[budney]

In terms of "over penetration"...what do you mean and with which shotgun ammo type? Slug?

I meant the opposite: the rifle is bad because it will over-penetrate. Home defense means, depending on the circumstances, that a shoot-through will endanger family members, pets and neighbors.

--Len.

 

[Oohrah]

I have made consistant kills on game birds at 35 yards with a short
20" barrel without a choke, using shot cups. Indicates pattern
density for quail and pheasant with small shot. Average room size
with 20 to 30 feet, the pattern does not open much with either heavy
or small shot loads. However, I am sure they have spreader loads or
they could be custom loaded. The 00 is good, but not convinced
that multiple hits from smaller buck may be more effective. Hits
with either would make for a bad hair day. I would pick the shot
gun over the rifle if a choice could be had

 

[blackhawk2000]

Pros for the shotgun:
less aiming at distances over 2 - 3 yards where the spread patter widens.

Not True. Still need to aim.

more likely to stop in one shot

Not True. Do you have any idea what 5.56 does to a body?

intimidating sound (pump only)

Cop I know did a paper, and interviewed many criminals about this, and they said it just lets them know where you are. I think the intimidating sound of a round being touched off is much better.

less likely to over penatrate

Acoording to the box of truth test, yes. But what about when a human body is in between the muzzle, and the wall?


5.56 is easier to shoot rapidly. How many accurate hits, in the same amount of time, can you get with an AR VS. a shotgun? Cost is irrellevent, if you already own both. Obviously if you can only afford a hatchet, then why even debate?

 

[kungfuhippie]

That came from my psycology class (fall 2000) I just remember that the study stated that all the "lower level" criminals were average. The IQ was brought up by burglars, murders, drug-criminals, and white collar stuff. IIRC.

 

[sm]

And the correct answer is...

...they ain't one.



Each individual must access their mindset, skill sets, AND those of any others in the household.

It is often suggested the Home Gun be one the smaller person can effectively use.
I am not being derogatory when I type "small".

A bigger person can shoot a smaller gun, where a smaller person may not be able to use effectively.
Not just a 12 gauge having a LOP too long, also MOA of say a AR.

This is why I KNOW some members use Revolvers for Home guns.

NOW...what if you get sick, hurt, injured, and recovering from surgery?

Are YOU going to be cleared by the Doctor to deal with Recoil?
Detached Retinas, shoulder and back surgeries come to mind - and NO the Doctor is NOT going to clear you for anything other than .22 rim-fire ...

So will someone else be able to use your HD gun(s) ?

I know one member here, whose mom used a 20 gauge 311 forever as a HD gun.
IIRC about age 78 the recoil was a bit much.
This mom still deer hunts, and the recoil is fine with her rifles.

Beretta CX4 Storm in 9mm is now this 80 year old "mom's" HD gun.
She is real good with this gun too!!

I mean lots of quality practice, and "mom will eat a ragged hole out to <forget yardage but it was out there a bit>.


Again, MY Take is no correct answer, as nobody knows what works for them, except them.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Quote:
intimidating sound (pump only)

Cop I know did a paper, and interviewed many criminals about this, and they said it just lets them know where you are. I think the intimidating sound of a round being touched off is much better.

Not to mention the fact that you have A) shucked a round into what was an empty chamber or, B) shucked a perfectly good round out onto the floor. In either case you have one less round available than you could have had. If you use your hunting shotty with the plug removed for home defense (a common scenario) it probably holds four in the mag and one in the chamber. Being down by one round is a 20% disadvantage from the outset.

No thanks.

Brad

 

[crebralfix]

The over penetration "risk" continues to be perpetuated on the misinformation 'net....

If it is too weak to go through drywall, then it's too weak to do its job on the human body.

If you miss with a handgun, rifle, or shotgun, the bullet will go through your house. You may get lucky...it may deflect into something and stop or just disappear without striking anything or anyone important.

Stop worrying about "over penetration", gear, and liability and start training for the fight.


...and if you still cannot make up your mind, get a 30-30 lever gun and a spill proof bag to hold the ammo. It will cover 99% of your actual needs from hunting to shooting goblins.

 

[budney]

If it is too weak to go through drywall, then it's too weak to do its job on the human body.

True. But you want it to go into the bad guy's body and stay there. You don't want it to go clear through the bad guy, then through a wall or two, and lodge in your son's skull where he's sitting on the potty.

I don't get it; why pooh-pooh the issue? It's the same reason that most of us carry JHP instead of FMJ in our carry pistols.

--Len.

 

[blackhawk2000]

True. But you want it to go into the bad guy's body and stay there. You don't want it to go clear through the bad guy, then through a wall or two, and lodge in your son's skull where he's sitting on the potty.

I don't get it; why pooh-pooh the issue? It's the same reason that most of us carry JHP instead of FMJ in our carry pistols.

--Len.

Do you really think that 5.56 which is known for fragmenting, is going to penetrate walls more than a slug, or buckshot?

 

[budney]

Do you really think that 5.56 which is known for fragmenting, is going to penetrate walls more than a slug, or buckshot?

I can't comment specifically on the 5.56; my remark applies to rifles generally. However, there seems to be a general consensus that 5.56, despite loss of mass and velocity along the way, is worse than a shotgun.

--Len.

 

[blackhawk2000]

My post was based on your previous post that implied a body was in between the muzzle, and the wall.

All these "tests" are all fine and dandy, but they don't mean jack if a human, or equivilant gelatin isn't shot first.

 

[blackhawk2000]

Also this discussion is aimed specifically at 5.56 vs. shotgun.

If a bad guy had taken your kid hostage, would you rather shoot him with an AR or a shotgun? You just have to point the shotgun, and all will be OK right? If you were wearing soft body armor, would you rather get shot in the vest with an AR, or with a shotgun?

 

[Boats]

Given the difference between the low bore axis and the tall sighting system on an AR, I think I'd sooner go to my 1911A1 for a tough head shot at across the room distances.

As to soft body armor at CQB distances, a slug will take the fight out of the target damn quick. One can always hit the pelvis with the buck shot and follow up wherever too.

A rifle is better outdoors than a shotgun, but not indoors IMO. I am under no obligation to be a one man SWAT team.

 

[blackhawk2000]

I know exactly where to aim my AR to make a brain box shot. It's not hard to learn.

There is a reason you shoot center mass first. It's the easiest target to hit. I would rather not find out the BG I just shot is wearing a vest, after I just shot him and he is still standing there. I would rather not find out the BG I just shot is wearing a vest and hopped up on meth. There are no rules that state you must give up after getting shot with a slug in your vest. It's all mindset. If you have your head in the fight, you ain't dying/quitting until your blood pressure drops low enough due to blood loss.

 

[Redneck with a 40]

I like the fact that a typical load of 00 buckshot is 9 pellets of 30 caliber. That is like getting shot with (9) 9mm bullets at the same time! I'm a firm believer in the shotgun being the most effective short range anti-personnel weapon, under 30 yards. If you get a good torso hit with a load of 00 buck, the thug is going down, nobody can withstand that kind of trauma. The muzzle energy on most 00 buck loads is around 1300 ft lbs, that will knock someone flat on his a**.

2) simplicity of operation
3) reliability, pump shotguns very rarely fail.