What makes a shotgun so much better for home defense than a 5.56 semi auto?

[blackhawk2000]

If you get a good torso hit with a load of 00 buck, the thug is going down, nobody can withstand that kind of trauma. The muzzle energy on most 00 buck loads is around 1300 ft lbs, that will knock someone flat on his a**.

Also not true. First of all if it knocked the thug down, it would knock you down too. Simple physics. Secondly if the thug isn't dead he could still be a threat. He won't die until he bleeds out. Too many people think just because they shoot someone, they are going to quit. This isn't TV. People can/have get/gotten shot in the heart with slugs, and live/d long enough to kill you.

2) simplicity of operation

How is a gun where you have to perform a pumping operation simpler than an autoloader?

3) reliability, pump shotguns very rarely fail.

People without a lot of practice short stroke pumps all the time.


ETA: 00 buck isn't quite like getting shot with (9) 9MM bullets at the same time. How much does each pellet weigh? I'm guessing less than the average 9MM bullet. Also they are round, and 9MM is conical. I have no idea if round bullets do more damage than conical.

 

[ar10]

Yes there was a study in 1990 of inmates in Lebanon, Orient and SOCF. 86% of the inmates queried stated they feared the shotgun on B&E's, Second highest was the dog. (Ohio Prisons, DRC)
I remember they queried or interviewed 800 inmates and it was one of the interns from OU that did the study. Don't ask me what happened to the report, I think it's buried somewhere, I think he was in criminology and in a masters program. I only remember some of the employees reading it and commenting on how scared they were hearing someone racking a shotgun while they were breaking into a building.
I have both, a 500 mossberg and a nasty junkyard dog. I've had only one incident where the dog bit some a@#hole trying to steal my new pickup in 1993. and another in 1997 when some punk kids tried to break into my shed, they got away before I let the dog out.

 

[Feanaro]

Anything that will come close to reliably killing a human will penetrate walls. If you miss, you could kill someone, no matter what you are using. Don't miss. How about overpenetrating the target? The old standby is 00 buck. A test by our own BrassFetcher shows that 00 buck totally penetrated a 16" block, with the exception of 1 pellet. And it was covered with four layers of 12.5 ounce denim. A slug showed less penetration, M855 penetrates about the same. M193 should penetrate even less.

If you shoot a shotgun better, go for it. A slug is pretty big and it can get bigger. As has been pointed out, a shotgun has more uses than an AR and is cheaper. Then again, you can get .7 inch expansion from some rifle loads. An AR or a FAL holds more rounds than a shotgun and reloads faster. A Remington 870 with an 18" barrel is almost 39" long. An AR carbine, 16" barrel, is 35". Throw on a Sully stock and it becomes 31". Lighter too.

There is no absolute answer. There are pros and cons to either.

If you get a good torso hit with a load of 00 buck, the thug is going down, nobody can withstand that kind of trauma.

A shotgun is not a death ray. If this Australian man had gone to the hospital instead of blowing his heart out, he would probably be alive today. He was certainly good to walk over 100 meters and shoot himself for a third time.

The muzzle energy on most 00 buck loads is around 1300 ft lbs, that will knock someone flat on his a**.

The kinetic energy is not what knocks you down, it is the momentum. In an inelastic collision(most of the macroscopic collisions), KE is lost but the momentum is not. This conservation of momentum works for the shooter too. The backward momentum of recoil is equal to the momentum of the bullet/shot, plus the hot gasses. If it knocked them over, it would knock YOU over to shoot it.

 

[MBane666]

Hard to get an apples-to-apple comparison. Bill Murphy, the full-time SWAT commander who teaches the shotugn classes at GUNSITE and at the SureFire Institute, says #000 is more penetrative than .223 low-penetration rounds like the Hornady TAPS, based on his own tests. I tend to be leaning toward the carbine, based on its versatility...I live out in the country, and a "long" outside shot isn't out of the question.

I have a Hans Vang 870 I'd take to war, but the AR platform is an amazing self-defense weapon...

Michael B

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

That is like getting shot with (9) 9mm bullets at the same time!

As alluded to by blackhawk2000, it is not like getting shot with 9 9mm bullets at the same time. 00 buck weighs about 54 grams per pellet, less than half than most 9mm.

 

[Zen21Tao]

Lets end the debate right here:

 

[Notch]

The chances of any of us needing to use a firearm for home protection are very low thank god.... That doesnt mean that I am not loaded to the hilt at home... But the chances of you getting into a gun battle, in your home, in which you NEED TO RELOAD are even lower. Exchange a few shots...either one of you is dead or wishin you were or there is a bad guy running out the door. I love my ARs and MGs, but I would rather be armed with a 12 G shoty or one of the .45 pistols in a bang fight at home.

suppression is a moot point if'n ya live in a damn state that doesnt trust ya...Frikin Mn...

 

[Redneck with a 40]

I stand by my choice, I'll take a load of 00 buckshot over a tiny little 22 caliber bullet. Besides, I wouldn't take an AR if you gave me one, I'd rather have an AK-47 in 7.62x39. Superior reliability and a better round.

 

[daysleeprx]

intimidating sound (pump only)

Debatable

 

[rantingredneck]

My go to would be my 870 with 6 rounds of 00 reduced recoil buck followed by two slugs. If he ain't dead by then he ain't dyin. Due to the risk of overpenetration with 5.56 (I know it's debatable, but still) I'd rather stick with buckshot. The two slugs are the SOL rounds at the end of the mag.

Standing beside the 870 ready to do backup duty is a Ruger PC9 9mm carbine loaded with Hornady TAP 124 +P's. At the ranges inside my house I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a SD role.

Of course there would be a .45ACP in my waistband too.

 

[camslam]

According to my understanding, and it has long been understood, that the most effective way to kill a man at close range is a 12 gauge shotgun, shooting 00 buck shells.

A .223 might be a good choice if you are trying to keep people 50 to 100 yards away, but personally I would go with a .308 for that purpose anyways.

I'll stick with the 00 Buck in the 3" shells because I have 15 rounds of @ .34 diameter pellet going towards anybody in my house that isn't supposed to be there. That means someone is going to have a bad day.

 

[Richbaker]

Model 94 Trapper, 16" barrel, 9 rounds of .44Mag, my walls are 52 year old plaster....no penetration at all! Ain't no one going to like being hit by .44Mag HP....

 

[Limeyfellow]

That came from my psycology class (fall 2000) I just remember that the study stated that all the "lower level" criminals were average. The IQ was brought up by burglars, murders, drug-criminals, and white collar stuff. IIRC.

Thats quite strange. In Britain the average IQ of a prisoner is about 13 points below average, so instead of the normal 100 they have 87 and a quarter is below 80 points. Thats from a study done in early 2007 by the University of Liverpool

I couldn't imagine the US would be that much different. One thing that is different is the amount who haven't graduated highschool and education levels. Thats probrobly has more to do with the lower levels than anything, usually by repeat offenders.

 

[grumpycoconut]

If you've got one, a 5.56mm carbine is the way to go.
- minimal recoil compared to a shotgun= faster follow up shots
- skinny fast little bullets are plenty lethal
- you can carry a lot more skinny little bullets than shot shells
- the right skinny little bullets penetrate less building material than 9mm ball
- the right skinny little bullets seldom over penetrate meat if placed in the right spot
- carbine muzzle flash is much less that shotgun flash
- pellet spread is a non-issue: appx. 1" per yard down range from 18" cylinder bore
- Noise: either way you go you are going to hurt your ears (I've fired both indoors and neither is fun)
- easier to shoot the bad guy off of your muzzle with a carbine if he goes for the grab after your first shot (no need to pump for the next round)
- carbine = 1 round per trigger pull you are responsible for when you miss
- shotgun = 9 rounds 00 buck zipping around when you miss
- carbines don't break my tactical lights like shotguns do when I train

If you are forced to go with the gauge, at least load up with low recoil tactical 00 buck shot

 

[Cork]

I like a pump shotgun, given a choice. Still one needs to check the pattern at a range with the ammo you load it for defense with. My 18 inch mossie 500 with no 4 buck at close range is still tight, actually could take a hostage shot inside a room. I added sights, flashlight and am thinking lazor. A 12 ga loaded with no 4 buck is a man stopper. In my case they will hear a boom then the action cycling. At least that is the plan? I have seen deer shot with buckshot at modest ranges, it is effective.
I talked to a ranger 2 weeks ago, back from his third tour, he told me off hitting a dude charging him 11 times with a 223 in the chest before taking a head shot to drop him. I know this is not common but He now carries a 7.62
Cork

 

[AStone]

Just checking in because ...

Well, just because ...

 

[AStone]

Just answer the ******* question!

Oh, sorry, i forgot to answer the question.

What makes a shotgun so much better for home defense than a 5.56 semi auto?

What makes a Cat D9T so much better for moving dirt than a BMW?

 

[tegemu]

From personal experience, I know that .45 ACP will pass through my house walls and murder my neighbors $1360.00 air conditioner. It could just as easily have penetrated the walls of his home and him or his wife. I don't have enough confidence in myself for guaranteed accuracy with a firearm in a stress situation, so am VERY concerned with over penetration. I'll stick with my Rem 870 loaded with #4 buckshot. Besides, being a shotgunner, I instinctively point it well.

 

[Wayne G.]

Shotgun, specifically in the Benelli M1 Super 90 variety.

No pumps, thank you. Semi-auto. I prefer the shotgun b/c of the one shot stop capability at close quarters. Plus, over-penetration is not much of a concern. It seems to dump a lot of energy quick.

 

[taliv]

you guys crack me up.

 

[Bailey Guns]

you guys crack me up.

Best response so far!

 

[DMK]

I keep both. I have no doubt in my mind that a 12GA is not only more intimidating than an AR, but will also make a much worse wound.

However, three things keep me from making the 12GA my primary "go to" weapon:

1) I'd rather worry about one projectile rather than 9. I don't care what anyone says, an errant .30cal 00Buck shot is going to cause a lot of collateral damage.

2) I know I can make accurate shots with the AR and that I can make quick and accurate follow-up shots with the AR. I can't say the same about the 12GA (that's my skill level, I practice with rifles more and my range is more suited to shooting rifles).

3) If faced with multiple attackers, I have 28 5.56 rounds in the mag and another in the butt cuff. Even with double taps, that's 28 hits on target with one reload. My 12ga has 8 shots, plus 6 on the buttcuff.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I don't think the shotgun is so much better. I think both are good choices and that training will be about a thousand times more important than what type of bangstick you have in hand. If you train with the AR, then the AR is the way to go. If you train with the shotgun, then use the shotgun.

I think the AR lends itself better to the novice shooter - better ergos, more rounds on tap, minimal recoil. Shotguns require a little more training as far as keeping them fed; but they can certainly be nasty out to unexpected ranges if you can keep them fed.

 

[foghornl]

I don't have a 5.56MM "shootin' iron", so I really don't have a dog in this fight.

That being said, my defense strategy is this...

First up is the "Bedside Table Companion", the Springfield "GI-45", stoked with 7+1 230-Gr Rem Golden Sabres, with spare mags. Next up is the Maverick 88 complete with #4Buck. If the Bad Guys are still advancing, then 1 or both of 2 very bad things are happening... We have reached TEOTWAWKI, or they are body-armored and there are several of them. At that point, I am picking up the US Rifle Cal .30 M1, Popularly Known As "The Garand", after retreating to the strong room. Anyone coming through that door without the password is in for a very bad day.

 

[benEzra]

The problem as I see it with a 5.56 HD Rifle is not only are you shooting the bad guy but you may be putting rounds into your neighbors house as well.

Only if you're using FMJ ammo. There is no reason whatsoever (IMHO) to use FMJ in a HD carbine. AR's will feed JHP's, and Roberts et al have shown that lightweight .223 JHP's pose less overpenetration risk than even 9mm JHP's. There aren't many projectiles that penetrate less than a 40-gr JHP at 3600 fps, and if you want more penetration, then you can just step up the bullet weight to 55, 62, or 75 grain JHP.

That and aiming at 2am with the squinty eyes is a little rough.

You have the same problem with a shotgun, at typical HD distances (at inside-the-house distances, even a mass of buckshot is essentially a single .729 caliber projectile).

At those distances, though, a front-sight-only (or even sight-post-only) hold will result in plenty of accuracy.

My personal preference would be the .223, myself.

That is like getting shot with (9) 9mm bullets at the same time!

As alluded to by blackhawk2000, it is not like getting shot with 9 9mm bullets at the same time. 00 buck weighs about 54 grams per pellet, less than half than most 9mm.

The "eight or nine rounds of 9mm" comparison is valid for 3 or 3.5-inch magnum loads of 000 buckshot, not 00. IIRC, 000 buckshot is indeed around 9mm caliber, whereas 00 buckshot is smaller (I think 00 is around .32, off the top of my head).