What makes a shotgun so much better for home defense than a 5.56 semi auto?

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I have a REMI 870 loaded w/ #4 buck shot. Look at the size of a #4 buck shot. It is about the size of a pencil eraser. I don't know how many are in a 3 inch magnum. but it's more than one at the time.

Think about it.
 
wolfman01 said:
Zundfolge - what do they call that thing, and how much do they cost? I GOTTA get me one of THESE!!!!:eek::cool::D

That there is a Saiga 12 shotgun made in the same Izhmash factory that the Russian (formerly Soviet) goverment gets its AKs from. Its basically a 12ga AK47.


It comes into this country with a standard style shotgun stock
sig123l.JPG

(they're imported by RAA)
but mine has been reworked by this guy: http://www.tromix.com/Welcome.htm so its extra evil :evil:


You can find a stock S12 for under $400 ... evil converted ones run at least twice that.

The 10 round mags are US made by a little company called AGP Arms and run about $60ea (thats a 5 round mag in the little picture).


and yes, you gotta get you one of these :)
 
Lots of replies...

And way too many of you guys are ready for combat. Not home defense, combat. There is a significant difference.

Ammo capacity and ease of reload are important in combat, but not so in a home defense situation. And before you start saying how important it is, think about it for a minute. Take a little time and do a little reading. The number of rounds fired in home defense situations typically is very low. As it should be. For all you guys who think it is important to be able to rip off 20 or 30 rounds inside your house to stop the intruder, all I can say is I hope you never ever have to put your theory to the test.

The usual worst case scenario is a break in in the middle of the night. Now you might be ready to go with an AR or an AK and a 30 rnd mag, but are you really going to blaze away, and need a reload? It just doesn't seem realistic to me.

I have a collection of the American Rifleman, with issues going back to the late 1940s, and reading the column the Armed Citizen is a good starting point to get an idea of the kind of self defense situations that have actually happened. The articles are short, and lack extensive detail, but a few things are common to the vast majority.

One thing is that never have I seen a report of a situation where the homeowner was reported to have to reload. The norm was more like 2-3 shots before the intruders fled. Unless you spray-and-pray ammo capacity just isn't an issue in the real world.

Shotguns are preferred because at close range the large bore is devastating. Nothing is 100%, and there have been recorded cases of people absorbing a couple of shotgun blasts without being instantly incapacitated. Extremely rare, but it has happened. One case a man took two 12ga slugs to the torso, and ran away. He ran around the corner of a building, and died. But he was able to run away. Nothing is 100%, but a well aimed 12ga is up there around 99.9%+

12 ga birdshot will tear through a sheet of plywood at 15-20 feet, leaving a very impressive hole. Across the street it isn't as effective, but across the room it will certainly wipe the smile right off an attacker's face. Buckshot works too, as long as you hit.

Anyone who thinks you don't need to aim a shotgun (especially at close range) needs to shoot a shotgun. A few rounds will be all they need to learn the error of their ways. Shotguns need to be aimed, just like everything else, in order to hit. The difference is just that there are no sights to line up, because precise aiming at longer ranges is not as critical, because of pattern spread. Point shooting is aiming, just aiming without sights.

And for all the tactical carbine proponents out there, try shooting a short barreled high intensity cartridge inside a closed room without hearing protection sometime. You could easily wind up with permanent hearing damage from 1 round. Think what a ripping off a full mag would do.

When you are clearing terrorists from a house in Iraq, an M4 might be just the thing, but in your home, it wouldn't be my pick. Why do you think the SWAT guys use suppressed MP5s? It ain't because they look cool.

I also have to wonder why everybody always assumes the only shotgun to use is a pump. I have a cheap chinese made coach gun loaded to repel boarders, and have no doubt it will do the job. And when the police take if as evidence, I'm not out too much if I never get it back!
 
I also have to wonder why everybody always assumes the only shotgun to use is a pump.
Speaking only for myself, pumps is what I grew up with.
Owned an 870 as a teen. Comfortable with it.

Even still, I've been thinking about getting a coach gun.
 
And for all the tactical carbine proponents out there, try shooting a short barreled high intensity cartridge inside a closed room without hearing protection sometime. You could easily wind up with permanent hearing damage from 1 round. Think what a ripping off a full mag would do.
That's why the hearing protection is connected to the muzzle.
 
44AMP said:
One thing is that never have I seen a report of a situation where the homeowner was reported to have to reload. The norm was more like 2-3 shots before the intruders fled. Unless you spray-and-pray ammo capacity just isn't an issue in the real world.

Actually, the norm in 95% of cases is that no shots are fired at all and the intruder complies based on the presence of a weapon. Does this suggest we should not even bother loading our firearms?

As for having to reload, check out this book. One of th stories in there is about a woman who ran a nursery. She ended up getting into a running gunfight with three men (and she was using a shotgun appropriately enough) though in the rows of trees she didn't realize it and thought she was just shooting at one guy until several turned up dead/wounded. She ended up doing more reloading than she planned that night.

You may not need to reload with an AR or AK very often in a home defense scenario; but the chances you will need to reload go up if you are using a shotgun. Not only that; but under stress, loading a shotgun isn't quite as easy as loading an AR or AK. You can fumble shells, drop them in backwards, short stroke a pump - I've done all three of those just in training under time pressure. I can't imagine what it would be like if someone were shooting at me or my loved ones were in danger.

That is one of the reasons I like the AR - not only are reloads faster; but it is likely in most scenarios I'll never need to reload at all.

12 ga birdshot will tear through a sheet of plywood at 15-20 feet, leaving a very impressive hole. Across the street it isn't as effective, but across the room it will certainly wipe the smile right off an attacker's face.

I got to talk to a guy who was shot with birdshot from 15 feet. He made his own 911 call. I can also show you stories of a 13yr old girl who was shot in the head with birdshot from across the porch. She ran away. Birdshot doesn't penetrate very deeply, even at close ranges. At 10 feet, #8 penetrates ballistics gel around 5" (not all of the shot, just the deepest ones). I do not want to defend my life with something that does not penetrate 6" of jello. An impressive hole with an average depth of 3" may look impressive; but it usually won't stop your attacker unless it just scares him into stopping.

Don't get me wrong, I think a shotgun is a fine, effective tool for home defense and I wouldn't hesitate to use one loaded with buckshot or slugs. I use an AR primarily because I have more training with that and training matters more than what firearm you have. I just don't think the shotgun is dramatically superior to a good carbine.
 
Shotguns are preferred because at close range the large bore is devastating.
Preferred by those who prefer shotguns. That's a tautology.

No one, I think, argues that a single shot from a .729 caliber shotgun isn't at least somewhat more lethal than a single .223 JHP at 3000+ fps. The position of those of us who prefer carbines is that the carbine is effective enough (certainly as effective, or more so, than a .357), and the other advantages of the carbine, for us, outweigh the single-shot-lethality issue.

One such advantage is, I have absolutely no interest in shooting shotguns for fun and recreation, hence I don't even own one. I DO very much enjoy plinking with small-caliber carbines, and am looking into some local carbine matches now. So I not only own a defensive-caliber carbine, I like to shoot it, and hence get a lot of practice with it.

I have no problem whatsoever with those who advocate the shotgun as their preferred HD choice, or who expound the virtues of the shotgun as an HD weapon (it is indeed a good choice). What I disagree with is the dogmatic assertion that the shotgun is the best choice for non-shotgun-aficionados, and that those of us who prefer carbines over shotguns are either mall ninjas, Walter Mittys, or ignoramuses.

They're both excellent choices. What's best for you, may not be best for me, and vice versa. What's important is that someone be confident in their own shotgun/rifle/handgun, enjoy shooting it enough to PRACTICE with it, and select ammunition and tactics intelligently.

The number of rounds fired in home defense situations typically is very low. As it should be. For all you guys who think it is important to be able to rip off 20 or 30 rounds inside your house to stop the intruder, all I can say is I hope you never ever have to put your theory to the test.

The usual worst case scenario is a break in in the middle of the night. Now you might be ready to go with an AR or an AK and a 30 rnd mag, but are you really going to blaze away, and need a reload? It just doesn't seem realistic to me.
I don't think anyone envisions shooting 20 or 30 rounds in a typical HD situation. As Bartholomew Roberts said, the nice thing about having a 20- or 30-round capacity is that you likely won't have to reload, or have think about carrying extra shells or whatever.

If, heaven forbid, I ever have to use a .223 for HD, I wouldn't expect to have to fire more than two or three rounds. But there's no penalty for having unfired rounds in the magazine as insurance.

And for all the tactical carbine proponents out there, try shooting a short barreled high intensity cartridge inside a closed room without hearing protection sometime. You could easily wind up with permanent hearing damage from 1 round.
Equally true of a shotgun of comparable barrel length.

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

Table 1. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)

.410 Bore
28" barrel...............150dB
26" barrel...............150.25dB
18" barrel...............156.30dB

20 Gauge
28" barrel...............152.50dB
22" barrel...............154.75dB

12 Gauge
28" barrel...............151.50dB
26" barrel...............156.10dB
18" barrel..............161.50dB



Table 2. CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA

.223, 55gr. Commercial load 18 _" barrel.....155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel...........................155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel.........................156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel.....................157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel...........................156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel.........................158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel.......................163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake...........170 dB



Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA

.25 ACP...........155.0 dB
.32 LONG..........152.4 dB
.32 ACP...........153.5 dB
.380..............157.7 dB
9mm...............159.8 dB
.38 S&W...........153.5 dB
.38 Spl...........156.3 dB
.357 Magnum.......164.3 dB
.41 Magnum........163.2 dB
.44 Spl...........155.9 dB
.45 ACP...........157.0 dB
.45 COLT..........154.7 dB


Contrary to popular belief, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference between shotgun, pistol, and rifle noise levels, although the sound spectrum is undoubtedly different. There is a correlation with caliber (e.g., .30-06 is louder than .223 and .357 is considerably louder than 9mm or .45). There's a tight correlation with barrel length (shorter is louder for any given caliber), but less correlation with velocity. For all the 7.62x39mm shooters out there, I'd assume the sound levels would be about the same as .30-30, which it resembles.

For those who don't grok decibels, it's a logarithmic scale (usually log10); a 3dB difference equals twice the radiated acoustic energy, and a 10dB difference is ten times the radiated acoustic energy. The ear perceives a 10dB difference as a doubling in volume, and IIRC the average person can just barely distinguish a 1dB difference. A car interior at highway speeds is 60-70 dB, a vacuum cleaner in the 80's to 90dB, I think, for perspective.

The upshot is, if you have to shoot in self-defense in an HD situation, you will probably suffer some degree of hearing damage, and pretty much any effective choice (carbine, shotgun, pistol) is equally likely to cause such damage, sans suppressor. But if low probability of hearing damage were the primary criterion for choosing an HD gun, we'd all be using .22 carbines with subsonic ammo.

I also have to wonder why everybody always assumes the only shotgun to use is a pump. I have a cheap chinese made coach gun loaded to repel boarders, and have no doubt it will do the job.
I'd prefer a magazine-fed gun, only because a capacity of 2 seems to be pushing the statistics a bit. Mas Ayoob discussed some years ago that a major police department (NYPD, I think) used to use 12-gauge side-by-sides, and that their hit percentage with shotguns was under 50%. The inference he drew was that yes, shotguns are extremely lethal with a well-aimed shot, but if you limit yourself to a 2-round capacity and find yourself attacked by two people instead of one, you can't even miss once. And once you've fired two shells, you are temporarily disarmed until you can retrieve some more ammunition.

Again, if it works for you, fine, but for me, I'd rather have some reserve.

And when the police take if as evidence, I'm not out too much if I never get it back!
Compared to the value of your life or my family (or even your legal fees, if you have to shoot to defend yourself), even a $1000 carbine, pistol, or shotgun would be easy to write off.

I'm not knocking your choices at all, but for me, I don't think the shotgun is the best choice.

And BTW, for those shotgun enthusiasts upthread making mall-ninja-Delta-force-wannabe ad hominems against those of us who prefer carbines, PLEASE. This is the High Road, not a frat house. I'm not some Force Recon wannabe; I'm a bespectacled thirtysomething, goatee-wearing, poetry-reading, writer and physics geek with a B.A. in English. I don't prefer the carbine because it looks "k3wl" or because I use one to blast n00bs in Counter Strike; I prefer it because I have though through the issue, and for me, consider the advantages of the carbine to outweigh those of the shotgun.
 
Shotgun advantages:
Excellent stopping power
The use of specialty ammo
Limited range ( BIG bonus, specially for cops)
Disadvantages:
Needs both hands to operate ( HUGE disadvantage IMO)
It’s too long with a 18-20 “ barrel. At least for moving around the corridors and rooms found in most houses.
CQC in a shooting class I took recently confirmed to me that you simply can’t trust your life to a weapon that needs two hands to operate and to fire each round, not when you have other options available.
Anyone tried pumping the thing while someone tried to smash your skull in or even worse, turn the muzzle of their own weapon towards you and shoot you, while you desperately try to keep it at bay with your “sacrifice” hand?
I keep my 14” Mossberg 500 ready, along with LTL and slugs in a stock carrier, but I’ll go for my 357 SIG or 9mm SMG first if things go bump in the night.
PS: Before anyone says it, cops carry handguns along with the shotgun, don’t they?

FerFAL
 
Just a thought on buckshot: it's a pack of round pellets, that aren't the best anti-personnel rounds out there (which is why the folks in the Civil War preferred Minie Balls - badly named, it was basically the same shape as modern FMJ autopistol rounds, IIRC). Still, the weakness of each individual pellet is compensated for by shooting off a whole lot of 'em together.
I wouldn't say that 10 .355 caliber pellets have the 'oomph' of 10 9mm rounds for that reason.


P.S. I'm in the camp of the pistols-for-HD crowd. No objection to AR-type carbines (aside from price) or shotguns.
 
12 gauge of your choice, shortest barrel you can legally acquire.

#1 Buckshot disrupts the most bloodvessals whithout overpenetration on clothed individuals (whitch they usually are). It is the perfect zen round for a home defense shotgun.
 
Howdy Gents,

"#1 Buckshot disrupts the most bloodvessals whithout overpenetration on clothed individuals (whitch they usually are). It is the perfect zen round for a home defense shotgun."

I concur. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Re: shotgun v. rifle - a personal choice, IMO, as thoroughly discussed :) above.

My personal choice is shotgun because:

1. Over the last 30 years I've shot alot of trap and skeet. Pull/Bang, Pull/B-Bang (doubles). It's a reflex.

2. I own a Win 1300 Defender and a few other shotguns. All are cocked and locked (pretty maids all in a row) so I've been pretty lazy about practicing tactical reloads.

3. My Gunsite "Tactical Shotgun" video is almost worn out from replaying.

4. I don't own a semi-auto .223 rifle. The only thing I have close to that caliber is a 6.5 Swede Mauser. Will that work for BGs at the end of the driveway?
 
My recommendation is the tactical wheelbarrow. It's much more frightening than any shotgun sound, and penetrates less.
 
Way too much opinion giving in this thread. My AR is only 7 lbs fully loaded. The only thing it lacks is a flashlight. You can bling out a shotgun also. Sterotypes are stupid no matter what the subject. 5.56 is an effective round. Do the research on ballistic tests. Talk to people who have shot people with it. If we only knew what other people told us, Glocks would be impervious to Xray detection, AR's would be innefective poodle shooters that only ran 100 rds before needing cleaning, 1911's would be unreliable, and people would poop there pants at a metallic clack-clack noise.
 
send the monkey

I thought long and hard about this dilemma.

I have narrowed it down to the following choices.

A. Wet myself in fear.

B. dig out the combo for my safe and unleash the firepower held within
the mossy or the RRA

C. grab my M&P 40 from the nightstand or .....................:neener:


D send my tactical Chimp to do the job and roll over back to sleep.

shootchimp.gif
 
Feanaro
Senior Member
Anything that will come close to reliably killing a human will penetrate walls. 100%, this is the harsh truth. Understanding this is paramount in selecting a HD firearm. If you miss, you could kill someone, no matter what you are using. Don't miss
This is the best advice given in this thread
. How about overpenetrating the target? The old standby is 00 buck. A test by our own BrassFetcher shows that 00 buck totally penetrated a 16" block, with the exception of 1 pellet. And it was covered with four layers of 12.5 ounce denim. A slug showed less penetration, M855 penetrates about the same. M193 should penetrate even less You should also include that the barrel length used for the AR15 ballistics gel testing was a 14.5" barrel with a long muzzle device (the velocity from a 14.5" barrel is significatly less than a 16" or 18' or 20" barrel). Don't use a 14.5" barrel, its almost pointless except from an aesthetics POV, because unless you pay to SBR it, it is going to have to be 16" minimum, so you might as well use that extra 1.5" for more barrel to increase velocity of your bullets going down range. Also, don't use M193 or M855 for HD ammo, use 68gr or larger ammo. 68-77gr bullets fragment better and faster (bad news for the bad guy getting shot) and does not over penetrate dry wall as badly as other .223/5.56x45 ammo..

If you shoot a shotgun better, go for it. A slug is pretty big and it can get bigger. As has been pointed out, a shotgun has more uses than an AR and is cheaper. Then again, you can get .7 inch expansion from some rifle loads. An AR or a FAL holds more rounds than a shotgun and reloads faster. A Remington 870 with an 18" barrel is almost 39" long. An AR carbine, 16" barrel, is 35". Throw on a Sully stock and it becomes 31". Lighter too Also to point out to all those that feel that a pistol is more manueverable for HD: know that when a pistol extended in your arms in the isoceles position, it is just as long a "projection" at the muzzle in front of you as a carbine or shotgun is for "projection" at the muzzle in front of you..
 
I think that HD is where a pistol caliber carbine really shines, but that's not what we are arguing here.

I don't think the shotgun is necessarily a better choice for HD. Like someone else here said earlier, I think the carbine in either 5.56 or a pistol caliber is better for a novice because it is easier to shoot well and is easier to keep in the fight (reload).
With training I think the shotgun is slightly superior in pure stopping power, but the additional training to be proficient with a shotgun adds a lot to the equation.


W
 
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