What makes a shotgun so much better for home defense than a 5.56 semi auto?

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If you need more than 5 rounds out of a shotgun to handle an intruder, you've got a serious problem. It should only take one round, two max. I think the tactical reload scenario is rediculous, especially since you're only dealing with a single intruder 99% of the time. Do you really think you'll need 12 rounds of 45 ACP or 6 shotgun rounds?? Come on!

I'm not sure I understand the lesson here. In the first story, the people in the house shot one intruder, stabbed another, and that ended the invasion. In the second, they didn't fight back, and the attackers were successful. I can't get the third one up, but the lesson seems to be a successful defense doesn't require killing all the invaders.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/wkmg/20070621/lo_wkmg/13542239

Quote:
Orange County sheriff's investigators said at least three people broke into a home

http://www.wftv.com/news/13534806/de...=orlc&psp=news

Quote:
Three Armed Men Barge Into Home, Steal Victim's Car

http://www.wkrn.com/nashville/news/n...ght/102222.htm

Want to retract your statement?
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You said that home invasions are typically one person.
I'm unwilling to make such an assuption and have proof to back up my position.

Besides, your arbitrary ruling on how much ammo I might need for defending my home is based on.....what exactly? All bets are off in a gunfight, and the first round could send the suspects fleeing, or you could expend your entire stash just trying to stop one man.
Murphy's Law is a vicious law and it punishes the unprepared. If one, three or ten people come in your front door you better be prepared to kill 'em all and hope that it doesn't come to that.

Obviously you can only have so much ammo at your disposal, especially when there is a bump in the night. Me, I'm hoping 24 rounds of 12ga slug, 31 .45 acp, 12 .357 and 14 .380 are enough.
 
I didn't say that -- but the references you posted (the two that I could open) seemed to indicate that the group that fought back and killed one invader drove the rest off. And those who didn't fight, lost.
 
Shotgun advocates:

* How do you carry extra rounds, if you do?

* How often, if ever, do you practice reloading your shotgun? How does it rate in complexity and difficulty to reloading an AR-15 or pistol?

* With everything set up ideally, how long does it take you to load 3 rounds into the tube? How about reload 4 into the gun on an empty chamber?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that outside of the 3-Gunners who shoot complex shotgun stages on a regular basis, there are very, very few people who are competent at really running a shotgun, through the spectrum of its entire manual of arms, under stress.

Fighting is about mindset, then tactics, then skill, and lastly equipment. It is far better to use a weapon than one is automatically familiar with. And anyone who runs a shotgun regularly will tell you that the shotgun's manual of arms is WAY different than a pistol or most assault rifles (which are more or less similar), and that it is possible to miss at close range with a shotgun, and that it is possible to a pump shotgun to malfunction (user induced 99.9% of the time).

The best-case reload times for a shotgun are on the order of 1-2 seconds PER ROUND. Figure around 5 seconds if you have to get it from a pocket, or otherwise fumble.

Reload times for a pistol or rifle are on the order of 0.1 - 0.3 seconds per round (since you are loading 10-30 rounds at once).
 
Zak,
I personally use and am very comfortable with a shotgun for HD, however, I'm not poo-poooing the choice of a carbine for HD. I certainly see advantages to either.
 
Well there are serveral things

5.56 is more likely to pass through the target if you hit it. Also if you miss more likely to pass through a wall.

The nice thing about a shot gun is that (depending on shot) you have several rounds hitting at once. One 5.56 or several 9mm's? I'll take the latter.

Also there is less aiming involved. Yes, you need to aim, this isn't the movies where 5 yards will cover a football stadium. But, say a baseball sized area at living room distances. You can have less then a quarter inch MOE, or a baseball sized MOE. Agian, I will take the latter.

That and the fact you can go with many loadings for your needs. Apartment? You can go with a lighter loading that will still get the job done but less chance of hurting a neighbor. Wide open spaces? You can go with buckshot.

That said there is nothing really wrong with a rifle for HD, mine for a few years has been a Win 94 30-30. Why? Best I had to do the job I just had to pray I didn't miss.
 
That and the fact you can go with many loadings for your needs. Apartment? You can go with a lighter loading that will still get the job done but less chance of hurting a neighbor. Wide open spaces? You can go with buckshot.
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A light, screaming fast 5.56mm hollowpoint will cover both jobs in one load.
 
I can't imagine what you would need a long range weapon for in your home. Unless your house is so monstrously huge, with giant hallways and super long corridors, why would you need a long range weapon?

Property is different. I suppose if someone was running away and trying to clear a fence then you would want something long range and accurate. However, I believe shooting someone in the back, even while on your property is punishable by law in just about every state out there, although I can't say for sure.
 
Who said the 5.56, or any other rifle caliber carbine is just a long range weapon? The police and military are using rifle carbines in CQB with great effectiveness all across the globe.
 
I can't imagine what you would need a long range weapon for in your home.
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Ask SWAT why they use "long range weapons" to clear rooms. The answer is that handguns are inferior to longarms in every regard except for their small size.
 
This comes up every once in a while. Every time, I am reminded that my grandfather's old M-1 carbine is just about perfect. Because of its size, it is my wife's primary and my backup.

My primary is my 870, #4 buck.

And I honestly don't care how many gelatin tests, internet articles, 'scientific' studies, etc. state the contrary, I'll believe my own two eyes. The 5.56 NATO round is a particularly effective AP round. In using it for HD, mostly you are talking about switching to hollow or soft points, and HOPING that this will make it less likely to overpenetrate. I've seen .223 hp pinhole a deer with barely a speed bump more than once. As much as I respect Ayoob, I still think that the culture of using 5.56 for HD stems from the culture that has been trying to convince us for 45 years that the 5.56 is sufficient for EVERYthing, despite the simple physics in such comparisons.
 
Something has to justify owning a ten pound rifle hanging a vertical foregrip, a flashlight, an ACOG, magpuls, and maybe a laser or a can, firing a steroidal .22 caliber round.

Just jack the number of imaginary invaders you have to face until a 300 round combat loadout with a mix of JHPs and steel cores for The Battle of Front Door Down looks reasonable and anyone relying upon a 6+1 or 7+1 or 9+1 shotgun looks like a pacifistic nutter.

If that doesn't shut them shotgunners up about the gun world's version of the modified ricer, just fold in a lot of body armor. Reiterate the need to be continuously reloading in the face of fire from the Criminal Hordes.

If that doesn't work, then give your bogeyman home invaders mil patterned rifles of their own to fight back with. Remember to ignore having to explain your wading pool's worth of expended brass to the cops or a jury.

That oughta justify a $1000.00 poodle shooter and $1000.00+ in ninja toys to slather upon it.:evil:

30+1 needed? Multiple times over? Make mine a 7.62x39 AK variant. Maybe I'll get away with shooting it only a 150 times in a HD encounter with the Forces of Chaos, but at least it will fire all of those shots without jamming.
 
I still don't understand the "I'll frighten him by pumping the shotgun" crowd.

Who here keeps their main HD gun unloaded?

I keep every SD gun in the house fully topped off with a loaded chamber but maybe I'm just weird.
 
What I was implying in my earlier post is the fact that a tactical reload will most likely never be needed, but as the saying goes, "better safe than sorry". I personally keep my shotgun with a full tube, 5 rounds, and 5 additional rounds in the buttcuff, #4 buckshot, 27 pellets. In my nightstand, I keep my Taurus Mil-Pro 40 with a loaded 10 round magazine, and one additional. I'll have at a minimum, 10 shotgun rounds and 20 rounds of 40 S&W at my disposal. I was merely stating that the need for a tactical reload in all likelihood, is very remote. Just the mere sight of an armed homeowner is enough to send the intruder running, most of the time.

Another point, my Mossberg 500 cost be $210 out the door, with two barrels, one 26 inch, one 18.5 inch. I can't afford a $1000 AR-15, so the shotgun is my only option, far more effective than the handgun would ever be.
 
Zundy...

I keep my 870 'cruiser ready'. Always have...same as my Bushmaster. Might slow me down some, but I ain't too worried about it. We all have our ways...

Biker:)
 
Who here keeps their main HD gun unloaded?

I keep every SD gun in the house fully topped off with a loaded chamber but maybe I'm just weird.
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Due to the lack of drop safeties on most shotguns, quite a few people advocate keeping shotguns "cruiser ready" as Biker mentioned. They aren't kept with empty chambers so you can make pretty sounds.
 
I would never even consider a debate between the two. I have seen a man eat 3x5.56 rounds center mass and multiple other hits (later as he was running) and still run and run...... It is highly ineffective caliber against perpetrators as its velocity is so much and circumference of bullet so little that it passes straight through human tissue.

A 12-guage shot gun will put down any human (or animal on the face of North America with the right load) if placed center mass. There are no doubts about a full once + of lead in a grouping the size of your fist making chunky chicken out of its target...were talking lethality. Drop that rambo delta operator POS and get a nice 870 or 1100 12 GA for self defense. Also you dont have to worry so much about that bullet three apartments down hitting an unintended target which btw you are responsible for. You cannot go wrong with a 12 Gauge!!! Or maybe one of those automatic jobs that everyone is posting .... :D Hope that Mahamad Ayoob part doesnt mean you live in some middle eastern country............ I would hate to give good advice to an Iraqi :(
 
Drop that rambo delta operator POS and get a nice 870 or 1100 12 GA for self defense. Also you dont have to worry so much about that bullet three apartments down hitting an unintended target which btw you are responsible for. You cannot go wrong with a 12 Gauge!!!
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The debate heats up ... :uhoh:

Hope that Mahamad Ayoob part doesnt mean you live in some middle eastern country............ I would hate to give good advice to an Iraqi
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We sincerely hope that Mr. Alphazulu6 isn't referring to our friend and fellow forum member, Massad Ayoob, with an ignorant and disrespectful statement. :scrutiny:

If so, most of us would suggest backing off, taking a deep breath, and learning more of Mr. Ayoob's wisdom.
 
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I keep my 870 'cruiser ready'. Always have...same as my Bushmaster. Might slow me down some, but I ain't too worried about it.
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For many with LEO backgrounds, it's the way we are used to carrying longarms. When you pull the M4 or shtogun from the rack, you rack a round into the chamber and know that the safety is off already. I think it came mostly from police administrators not wanting to have the shotguns with a hot chamber (maybe there were a few too many holes in the top of the CV's) and also a general dislike for safeties and some agencies had an assortment of shotguns (Remmies, Winnies, Mossies, Ithacas etc.) with safeties in different positions.

So many police departments required all the shotguns to be stored "cruiser ready" with the hammer down on an empty chamber, with the tube full, and the safety off. As carbines came back into vogue, most of the trainers taught the same method for the rifles.

I would never even consider a debate between the two. I have seen a man eat 3x5.56 rounds center mass and multiple other hits (later as he was running) and still run and run...... It is highly ineffective caliber against perpetrators as its velocity is so much and circumference of bullet so little that it passes straight through human tissue.
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I've seen men eat up multiple rounds of 7.62x51 NATO, 7.62x39, .45 ACP (and other rounds), and multiple shotgun hits (though I don't remember seeing a buckshot wound). What's your point? BTW, that doesn't mean that I don't consider all the above as highly effective rounds. However, if you punch through the chest without hitting the heart, a major vessel, or the spinal cord, they just aren't going down (or going down quickly). Even pneumothoraces (dropped lungs) aren't instant manstoppers. It's as simple as that.

I must also say that I have never seen a 5.56 center mass that didn't cause a fairly massive exit wound (due to it's tumbling more quickly than a 7.62--which tumble also but it takes more tissue). Since your "experience" is so different than my own (and trauma photos and ballistic gelatin testing), I have some doubt that you have seen as many wounds as you claim. Perhaps your "poodle shooter' comment should tell me that you get your opinions from a certain dead gunrag writer.

A 12-guage shot gun will put down any human (or animal on the face of North America with the right load) if placed center mass. There are no doubts about a full once + of lead in a grouping the size of your fist making chunky chicken out of its target...were talking lethality.
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On this we agree. 12g with buckshot is HIGHLY effective. I carry one occasionally at work (mostly at night or for special purposes) and have one as my primary home defense weapon (mostly because I cannot justify a home AR). However, I grab an AR at work most of the time. I just prefer the precision, lighter weight, and better firepower. I certainly would not feel at a disadvantage defending my home with one.

I wouldn't ever buy a pistol caliber carbine, unless I get a real good deal on a .357 or .44 lever gun with a 16" barrel. :) Just because I want to.
 
5.56 is more likely to pass through the target if you hit it. Also if you miss more likely to pass through a wall.
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For the bazillionth time, if you miss with buckshot at the ranges that most home engagements take place at, it will go through the wall. It's not more or less likely to do so: It will go through the wall. That it does so faster or slower than a 5.56 in no way takes away from the fact that it is still capable of killing someone on the other side of the wall. Perhaps the 5.56 is moving faster, but if the situation is right, it won't make you any deader.
 
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