What would your JIC gun be?

[goon]

Another Zombie attack end of the world thread. With age and reality I have lost most of my ability to fantisize.

So say you had a friend. He watched the news one day, got scared by the persistent negativity and general capacity for the world to get real ugly real fast, and asked your advice on what gun to buy.
He probably won't carry it, he probably won't even shoot more than a box of ammo through it before putting it away, and he isn't planning to practice with it on a regular basis. Still, he understands the need to own a firearm for defense. Maybe he was ambivalent before, maybe even a closet anti, but now he's on the path to being one of "us" and he wants a gun to have around... just in case.
Knowing this, what would you tell him to buy?

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Read The OP

I'm beginning to wonder how many of those posting in the thread actually took the time to read what the OP actually asked.

Try it.

It's maybe not what you thought the title meant.

 

[ripp]

I'd pick a .22 autorifle, preferably the out of production Marlin Papoose, because I can have a spare barrel that easily swaps out and can be 6" long, with a sound suppressor on it. Add a telescoping buttstock and you have a .22 rifle that can be concealed under a coat, under your arm, and the 6" barrel keeps regular .22lr, high speed ammo subsonic. This makes for a compact, lw unit that is very easily buried in a PVC TUBE, along with a brick of ammo. It may not seem like much, but it can easily get anything else I might need. For JIC scenarios, I don't want anything for which ammo is at all hard to get or carry, or that has blast or flash, or that I can't ccw, preferably ready to fire as ccw'd, but I want it to be capable of braining deer or dogs, and taking small game with ease. I don't trust a suppressed. 22 pistol to be nearly as capable of doing those things.

 

[zdc1775]

Personally I would say .357 carbine and revolver with about 3-400 rounds of ammo, and if the kit had the room a .22 revolver with a couple of bricks of ammo.

 

[rogertc1]

Ok hows about an AR pistol with 100 round drum magazine...I have one...take no name...

 

[goon]

[off-topic redacted]

The idea for the .22 or .22 magnum rifle does make some sense. A .22 mag has more power from a rifle than its small bore size would indicate and even a .22LR rifle packs a surprising punch. I can see a semi-auto .22 serving pretty decently against an attacker if pressed into that, especially if you can land quick repeated hits. Even total amateurs can learn to handle a .22LR rifle and make hits out to fifty yards pretty quickly. I think everyone should have a good .22 for its versatility and especially because the cheap price of ammo encourages you to practice a lot. Still, it's lacking against bigger predators. I think that someone who wants to own a gun to have around just in case, but probably not shoot it much, might be better served with something that will put a heavier projectile on target.
I'm still liking a coach gun for the purpose of arming someone who would buy a JIC type kit. As I said, I don't think most of us would - because we've already made our choices and either have what we need or at least know what we need to buy. But for some people a "kit" with as short 20 gauge side by side would be exactly what they'd need. And even in the case of someone who would buy a kit like that to begin with, then begin to learn about its deficiencies and want to upgrade, a coach gun would still be useful enough to hang on to.
Hate to say it in a way... because I'm one of those people who can live without a shotgun, but for this use it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Unistat]

On the one hand, it's hard to beat a pump-action shotgun for a general JiC gun.

On the other hand, I keep a Kel-Tec SU-16 and a Springfield M6 Scout with my BOB/GHB, so I guess those are my JiC guns.

On the gripping hand, in a JiC situatuation, I'm not leaving my house without grabbing my Remington 870. It would take two seconds, literally. Since the BOB/GHB are already in the car and I always have my G23 on me, I guess I'm covered. Paranoid, but covered.

 

[ripp]

they won't practice enough to hit with anything else, or spend the money to buy anything else and enough ammo to do them any good. all it takes to beat out the shotgun is 100 yds, some cover and a rifle. It's far, far too limited a gun, in many, many ways. its blast and flash are horrendous, especially at night. its ammo is way too bulky and heavy, especially for use against small game. The 22 wo;n't make them THINK that they can fight, when the reality is that they cant. The .22 encourages them to hide and be quiet/unnoticed. And that is the only practical advice for those who are not heavily 'into' combat shooting.

 

[22-rimfire]

My whole house is a major JIC kit. Gun? Probably a good 22 revolver, 22 rifle, and a 40 S&W pistol. Shotgun... sure got that covered too. Like I said, my whole house is a JIC kit.

 

[ATBackPackin]

As far as a kit for the masses in case of catastrophic event I think you need something light and compact. Something like the Marlin Papoose would be perfect and you can carry a lot of ammo.

You may have to defend you family, but you are definitely going to have to feed them. I would also like to see a small fishing pole, such as an ice rod. Maybe even a take down recurve bow with a half dozen arrows.

 

[goon]

One could argue that you'd be better off to stock up on macacroni and cheese rather than .22 ammo if you expect to eat.
Don't ge me wrong - I'd poach a rabbit or squirrel to add some protein to the diet, but it is way easier to toss some noodles and a handful of lentils into a pot of boiling water than it is to run around in the woods (or your neighborhood) trying to shoot a squirrel. I think ten pounds of rice will give you more sure meals than a 100 round box of .22 ammo.

they won't practice enough to hit with anything else, or spend the money to buy anything else and enough ammo to do them any good. all it takes to beat out the shotgun is 100 yds, some cover and a rifle. It's far, far too limited a gun, in many, many ways. its blast and flash are horrendous, especially at night. its ammo is way too bulky and heavy, especially for use against small game. The 22 wo;n't make them THINK that they can fight, when the reality is that they cant. The .22 encourages them to hide and be quiet/unnoticed. And that is the only practical advice for those who are not heavily 'into' combat shooting.

I can't say I disagree with your points on the shotgun. It's far from ideal for my uses and apparently for yours. I'd much rather have a good centerfire rifle over a shotgun - but you and I are also people who shoot often enough to be competent with a rifle.
Smart or not, there are people who buy guns, try a few shots out of them, then put them away. In the thread that inspired me to start this one, the OP had a friend or family member who bought a Mossbert JIC kit. I got the impression that after a little familiarization firing his family member was going to clean it up and put it away. I agree that practicing is way smarter, but at the same time, many people don't practice regularly and that just is what it is. Smart or not, it's reality.

So if you're designing a kit to market to those people (not to those of us who already know what we're doing and are well armed with our 870's, AK's, AR's, or even Marlin 30-30's) what would you stick in it to give them a decent chance of defending themselves?

Thinking this out further, I wonder if a pump action .410 set up as a defensive gun might not work well.
Ammo is expensive, but the folk I'm thinking of aren't going to shoot more than a box or two of it anyhow.
Recoil is light from a .410 but a 3" load can still put five pellets of buck shot on target with one trigger pull. A gentle little gun on the shooter but no so much on the attacker... But this is just thinking out loud.

 

[22-rimfire]

I wouldn't suggest a 410 shotgun to anyone that is not VERY comfortable shooting guns in general in which case, they would have something better.

Few people are going to shoot ANY rounds. The police would not look kindly on you struting down the street with your 870 or AK. It is not going to happen, and if it did happen, it would be isolated. Keep a handgun tucked out of sight on your person and your shotgun loaded leaning against the wall in your house and you are about as ready as you're likely to ever be.

100 yd shots.... forget about it. It's called murder not self defense.

I took ArfinGreebly's advice and read the opening post. The most important part is THIS. Not what I just finished commenting on above.

Anyhow, if you were designing such a kit for sale to the masses, what gun(s) would you include in it and why?

The kit would contain a Glock pistol (9mm or 40S&W), a couple loaded mags, a couple boxes of ammo, a small spin fishing rod with appropriate lures, food for 3 days, first aid kit, and a survival book (probably the army manual), water filtration equipment, a small stove, and cooking pot, pan, and dutch oven. Probably a bit large to lug on your back, but I don't intend to do much lugging on my back. Stay home where you are the strongest.

Another kit version would have a 12 ga Remington 870 shotgun with 25 rounds of ammo instead of the handgun.

 

[Br]

How about a simple .22 rifle that packs in the stock, the Henry US Survival Rifle? Fits in a backpack easily.

http://www.henryrepeating.com/rifle-survival-ar7.cfm

 

[OffArtist]

+1 On the Henry Br - I wish I had one to be part of my current kit. So far I'm thinkin I'd bring my Springfield 1911 .45, my Savage .22, and my M4gery with a few hundred rounds for each (again, depending on the scenario). I also own one of those Katadyn water filters - expensive, but SO worth it. If I had to hunker down I'd have more than enough food, water, and armament / ammo to dissuade any would be bogeymen.
I also own a Franchi I-12 semi auto 12 gauge which I totally love. Wonder how it would do if I sawed it down to 18"...

 

[mortablunt]

Mine is a Johnson M1941. I trust it complicitly.

 

[BLB68]

100 yd shots.... forget about it. It's called murder not self defense.

If someone's trying to murder you from 100 yards away with their JiC gun, then it's self defense.

Back on topic: Both the Mossberg JiC kits and the similar kits from S&W make me scratch my head.

It's a gun in a tube, along with random other objects, including a Survival Kit in a Can (crap), a Multitool and a lockblade knife of unknown manufacture (most likely crap, but even so, the lockblade is redundant with a multitool).

So, what's the intention? Bury it somewhere as a cache? Carry the big honking tube with you strapped to the side of a pack, like in the one picture on the site? Both seem impractical.

I can see one situation that such a set up might be worth considering, offhand, and that's if you're doing some travel in seriously remote places by vehicle. In that case, I'd probably not opt for the tube, for for a large Pelican or similar waterproof, floatable container.

As for what to put in it, firearms-wise, nothing. Whatever you normally carry for personal protection should suffice. You're better off with a flare gun than a shotgun or rifle in a survival situation.

Now, if you're in a situation where you may have to defend yourself, such as a civil unrest scenario, I still go with your normal CCW, and avoiding trouble as much as possible. You aren't going to stand up to a mob unless you bring your own mob, and without medical help readily available, it's better to avoid contact if possible, as even fairly even encounters can prove deadly in the long run. A lot of gun fights seem to end up with bullet holes in both parties after all.

 

[Br]

OffArtist, I like my Springfield 1911 .45 for this also, and my Glock 21 in .45 too.
mortablunt, I think you mean you trust it implicitly, complicit means wrongdoing or doing something illegal.

 

[esque]

Having read "All" of the O.P. with the key points
being.. kit, defensive, relatively inexpensive, light recoil,
close range, break down and common ammo. I too will suggest the Kel-Tec
Sub 2000 9mm.

 

[goon]

As for what to put in it, firearms-wise, nothing. Whatever you normally carry for personal protection should suffice. You're better off with a flare gun than a shotgun or rifle in a survival situation.

Now, if you're in a situation where you may have to defend yourself, such as a civil unrest scenario, I still go with your normal CCW, and avoiding trouble as much as possible. You aren't going to stand up to a mob unless you bring your own mob, and without medical help readily available, it's better to avoid contact if possible, as even fairly even encounters can prove deadly in the long run. A lot of gun fights seem to end up with bullet holes in both parties after all.

You have a point. You or I or most of the people reading this thread already have the guns we'd use for this. We'd grab our trusty Glocks, 1911's or .357 revolvers and call it good.

But IMO you're not the guy the JIC kit is marketed to.
Strange as it is to "us" there are people out there who don't have many years worth of firearms experience.
I think the appeal of the JIC kit to someone like that is largely psychological.
You were unarmed and unprepared before... then you bought the JIC kit and WHAMMO! You are now prepared!

Sure, that's silly. As others have pointed out, one of these kits doesn't make you prepared to do much. They're stuffed with cheap knockoff equipment (I think, having not handled one personally) and a gun that's probably not ideal for someone who's not going to be shooting it much. Still, they're at least a step in the right direction and even if someone isn't a gun enthusiast, I still think they should have a good tool to exercise their right to defend themselves and their loved ones.

Some would stuff a handgun in such a kit as a better choice than a Mossberg with a pistol grip. I have to say though, it took me a long time and a lot of rounds downrange to get competent with a handgun and after a winter's worth of not shooting much, it takes some rounds to get back to where I was. Handguns require frequent practice in my experience, so for me, that rules them out as a JIC gun for a marginally skilled shooter.

Rifles and shotguns are easier to shoot, and many shotguns only have a bead. Get that on the target, press the trigger, and let the spread of your buck shot do the rest.
They've got limitations and I'd prefer a rifle... but I'm going to be practicing at least once a month if not more. And so are you.
So rather than looking at what you would choose for yourself, what would you advise someone who isn't as much of a shooter as you are?

And yes, I realize that the best solution is just to get people to go to the range and practice with you... but it's just not always possible. Some people are gun owners but not shooters and that's just how it is.

 

[BLB68]

For an actual JiC kit for a non gun person, a shotgun with a stock, probably a 20 gauge, would be better than the pistol gripped shotguns for sure.

 

[Dnaltrop]

JIC to me means I'm taking small game for survival. My 2 legged protection is separate.

Have a big soft spot in my heart for the AR-7 explorer. Floats, Uses high/hypervelocity .22, collapses into the stock for easy portability.

 

[goon]

JIC to me means I'm taking small game for survival. My 2 legged protection is separate.

Have a big soft spot in my heart for the AR-7 explorer. Floats, Uses high/hypervelocity .22, collapses into the stock for easy portability.

But with the Mossberg kits it seems that defense is the priority (or at least the idea of making people feel like they have defense covered).
And I think it should be for a short-term crisis. I like the ability to knock off a couple squirrels for food, but in reality I think having a few jars of peanut butter in the pantry is going to result in more calories going into my body than running around my neighborhood or the nearby woods in the wake of some disaster trying to hunt. It will also draw a lot less attention from the neighbors and the authorities who might already be on edge as they try to deal with all the other problems that would no doubt exist in such a scenario.

I guess the conclusion I've reached as I've thought about this thread is that I've been trying to come up with a more effective weapon than a pistol-grip only shotgun for those who might purchase something like a JIC kit.
I think if you have someone who's willing to put the work into learning a weapon, a semi-auto handgun or revolver brings a lot to the table. It's got adequate range and power for defense and you can keep it with you pretty much all the time. Pick a caliber/weapon everyone in the family can use and get some practice and you're off to a decent start. If you get more into guns I think you should add a long gun - and by that time you'll know enough about guns to make a smart choice.

If you're not willing to do the work and just want something as simple as it gets to defend yourself with (whether you're dedicated or not, you still have that right), I think a short side by side shotgun or a full stocked pump action might be about as good as you can do.

And I think subsistence hunting is a whole different conversation...

 

[Ole Coot]

My JIC firearm sure wouldn't be a pistol grip 12ga pump. None of those survival munchies either. I have an old Win Mod. 70 that works for distance and a Win. Defender 12ga for close up. I have alarms, lights, generator ample tools, food, workshop and plenty of clear space along with a dog. Metal roof & brick house open field of fire and well armed neighbors, close but not too close. If I HAD for some natural disaster be forced to leave I push up a garage door, back up the loaded Jeep to the trailer with goodies and drive to a cabin about 50miles back in the woods built with a portable sawmill, 2br, kitchen, bath, living room and all around porch can now be reached only by ATV. Our and a few friends get away from everything place, don't even bother to lock the doors. Just a sign, leave it as you found it and it has been used and taken care of and easily defended out to 500yds.

 

[saddlebum]

i think if you were bush pilot in alaska that mossberg jic would be about ideal to keep behind the seat of the ol airplane

 

[GLOOB]

A Ruger MkIII and an AR15?