what's "good?"

[Superpsy]

Okay...I'm pretty new to shooting handguns and I had a question....

What's good/average/fair/poor?

Let's talk distances and groupings for now @:

25 yards- What's a excellent/good/adequate/fair/poor grouping?
15 yards- What's a excellent/good/adequate/fair/poor grouping?
10 yards- What's a excellent/good/adequate/fair/poor grouping?

I know this question is VERY subjective...just wanted some opinions on what I can aim for/expect. Besides perfection of course.

 

[CWL]

How many bullets, what caliber, what sized gun?

I shoot primarily .45ACP. For combat/SD shooting, everything should be inside a fist-sized hole at any of these ranges.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

It depends on what you're doing.

For classic target shooting, many champions will have all shots touching at 50 yards. That, of course, is with a tuned gun.

But a good out-of-the box revolver will get around 2" at 25 yards, an automatic the same or a bit more.

For defensive shooting, speed and accuracy are needed. If you can consistently draw and put two shots 3" apart at 7 yards in 2 to 4 seconds, you're doing well.

 

[Mad Magyar]

I don't shoot out to 25 yds and am not an accomplished Bullseye shooter...I practice at closer ranges using CQC drills to hit in the Kill Zone that are outlined on my silhouette targets...
I've always felt that a production, off-shelf model w/o further modifications aren't going to give you the accuracy one wants. Plus, you know the adage, the pistol probably shoots far better than one holding it....???
I'm more interested in rapid fire to a more broader area of the human body...

 

[Wetawd]

I'm with Mad Magyar on this one, in self defense u don't have to shoot out his eyes, just aim for the button on his shirt and u should be center mass.

But for fun with any handgun over a 4 inch barrel I like to try to put everything in a paper plate at 70 yards... it doesn't always work but I can do fairley good now.

 

[Dismantler]

I am interested in two different kinds of shooting, plinking and defense. I am concerned with long shots. Jeff Cooper once wrote that people always tell him that they cannot see a scenario where a 100 yard pistol shot would need to be taken. He asked, "What if you were working on your ranch or retreat and you saw armed men 100 yards away and heading for your house?" A good question.

How far is it across a convenience store parking lot? How far from the front of your grocery store to the back? What if a deranged person starts to shoot at you and he is 35 yards away?

I can put my shots from a Ruger .22 auto into a two gallon jug at 50 yards. I can hit a 14' X 20" cardboard (the size of my upper torso) at 50 yards pretty easily with My Model 10 with standard .38's. I am working on expanding this distance.

I once read in magazine dedicated to Glock pistols that a mounted (horseback) police patrol has to qualify one handed with their Glocks at fifty yards. I think it was in Georgia.

So, the answer to your question is a question to you. How good do you think that you have to be?

I am happy hitting the larger targets farther out, and I am happy shooting smaller and smaller pieces of clay birds at 25 yards with the .22.

Some of the tactical handgun magazines have drills in them in every issue that you can try to duplicate. Or you can make up your own criteria and constantly try to do a little better.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I hunt squirrels and shoot at rocks in my pond from my porch (a steep downhill shot, with a mountain for a backstop.) I know the ranges and holds pretty well, and one day I spotted a fox squirrel going up a tree very close to where I usually aim. He hit the ground with a thump, and the range was 70 yards.

 

[MrBorland]

25 yards- What's a excellent/good/adequate/fair/poor grouping?

It depends on what you're doing.

For classic target shooting, many champions will have all shots touching at 50 yards. That, of course, is with a tuned gun.

But a good out-of-the box revolver will get around 2" at 25 yards, an automatic the same or a bit more.

Are you asking "what does an excellent/good/adequate/fair/poorshooter typically shoot at X yards?", or "what's an excellent/good/adequate/fair/poor gun instrinsically capable of grouping at X yards?" If the former, like Vern, I think it depends on whether you're taking slow deliberate shots for accuracy or shooting for speed. I'll assume you mean slow deliberate shooting for accuracy, so here's what I use as a general benchmark, though others may disagree:

A good, but not excellent shooter (with a gun that's capable of it) can shoot 3" groups at 25 yards standing, shooting 2-handed. If shooting 1-handed, add about 15-20% to the group size. A good revolver shooter, shooting double action should be able to do this, too.

An excellent shot, IMO, would be consistently shooting groups of 2.5" or less at 25 yards, and would be a little less handicapped shooting 1-handed.

Average shooting would be 4"-5" shooting 2-handed and probably 50% bigger shooting 1-handed.

Vern's champions who get all shots touching at 50 yards superb shooters (or else they wouldn't be "champions", would they?).

As far as shorter distances, do the math and you'll see a good shot would create a single jagged hole at 7 yards.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern's champions who get all shots touching at 50 yards superb shooters (or else they wouldn't be "champions", would they?).

I used to be stationed at Fort Benning and knew all the USAMTU shooters. I've seen Hulett Benner split a bullet on an ax blade and break two balloons, one on either side.

The Army has some boys who can shoot.

 

[Superpsy]

So, the answer to your question is a question to you. How good do you think that you have to be?

I'm not sure...that's why I asked. =) I'm thinking primarily in SD situations...

 

[Superpsy]

Are you asking "what does an excellent/good/adequate/fair/poorshooter typically shoot at X yards?"

yup..that's exactly what I'm asking.

 

[TimboKhan]

For me, if I can put them all into a paper plate, thats good enough. I would say that I generally can put them all into 3 or 4 inches at 25 yards pretty regularly, but thats the result of a good deal of focused practice. I can do better with a .22 at that range, but as long as they fall within a paper plate, I am generally happy.

For self-defense, consider that the paper plate is the center of the target. As long as you can stay in that paper plate area, your going to hit something vital. It's better if you can hit smaller, but it's not bad if your in a paper plate.

 

[Mad Magyar]

What if a deranged person starts to shoot at you and he is 35 yards away

Look for cover, wait until he get's in "your range"....

 

[Dismantler]

I guess that my point that you should be able to hit at a range longer than 7 yards should just have been stated so. So here it is. In my opinion to be "good" you should be able to hit a human size target at 50 yards within a reasonable time to get off an aimed shot. You pick what a reasonable amount of time is. This may not be realistic with a snubby or pocket pistol. But you should be able to do it with a service pistol. With a snubby or pocket pistol you should be able to do this at 25 yards.

I was not being smart when I said that you have to decide how good you have to be. Many people gave good opinions/examples here. But ultimately you need to decide what the upper limits of your accuracy will be. Again, the Glock Mounted Patrol has to hit at 50 yards with one hand from horseback. A local agency here needs to put two into the target two-handed at 25 yards in 12 seconds. There is a big difference there. Sort through these posts and decide how far away and how large a target you need to hit.

 

[Seancass]

I'll throw in my guesstimates to give you an actual answer and not lecture you on defensive shooting.

I'd say 2" @ 25 yards is good to excellent. many good shooters can do it, excellent shooter do it regularly. Excellent is probly down closer to 1".

2" at 10-15 yards is adequate to good. maybe above 6" reaching in to the Needs more practice ammo area. The better shooters here again get down around 1" with bullet holes touching.

I think keeping them on standard paper at 50-100 yards is pretty good for a pistol, but others here demand 2" 100yd groups from their guns. I don't.

By this logic, i'm poor and i need more practice.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm not sure...that's why I asked. =) I'm thinking primarily in SD situations...

There are several answers to that:

1. According to the FBI, most gunfights take place within 7 yards (21 feet). That's old data -- and you can't be sure your gunfight will be typical.

2. "The Rule of 3" -- supposedly, most gunfights take place at 3 yards, in 3 seconds, and 3 shots are fired. Again, you can't be sure your gunfight will be typical.

3. Combat is open-ended. That is, there is no point where you can say added skill, speed, accuracy and power will not be to your advantage.

Personally, I advise adopting a goal of drawing from the holster and putting all your shots in the kill zone of an FBI target at 7 yards. Try for getting the first shot off in 1.5 to 2 seconds, and the remainder no slower than one shot per second.

Vary the scenario -- do some shooting at longer ranges, some at shorter, and condition yourself to keep shooting accurately until the threat is neutralized.

 

[Claude Clay]

self-defense......draw to double tap 1st target ( under 7 yards) under 2 seconds; real good is under 1.5 seconts center mass hits: 2nd target add 1/2 second.

 

[mavracer]

Combat is open-ended. That is, there is no point where you can say added skill, speed, accuracy and power will not be to your advantage.

very well stated

 

[TS537]

"spotted a fox squirrel going up a tree very close to where I usually aim. He hit the ground with a thump, and the range was 70 yards."

Hope he tasted good....

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Yup -- all the better for that shot. My Colt Woodsman is the most accurate pistol I have.

I wish the Government didn't get its panties in a wad over shoulder stocks on pistols -- I'd make one for this gun.

 

[Superpsy]

thanks for all the responses...it'll help me know what to aim for (pun intended)

 

[theotherwaldo]

I'm real happy to keep my battered old Super Blackhawk on the paper plate at fifty yards, two-hand hold, iron sights.

Past fifty yards I want a long gun.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I would not settle for anything less then all rounds inside a 6" black bullseye and any yardage...

 

[Ankeny]

self-defense......draw to double tap 1st target ( under 7 yards) under 2 seconds; real good is under 1.5 seconts center mass hits: 2nd target add 1/2 second./QUOTE]
Really, really good would be two rounds in under a second and six rounds in 1.75 seconds.

 

[deercop]

In my ever so humble opinion, I think a lot of posters in this thread are shooting better with a keyboard than a handgun. Or maybe they're really that good, I dunno. Anyway ..........

I recently won a statewide championship with my state LE agency. We are generally above average shots, due to the nature of the job, I suppose (game wardens). Anyway, one part of the competition was bullseye style shooting offhand from 25 yards, using your duty weapon (Glock 22 w/ NY trigger, in my case). I would estimate all my shots at that range were within about a 5" group. Now, if I could have used one of my 1911's, it would probably have been close to or less than half that size.