When do you draw?

[AKElroy]

I agree 100% with EHL. If they continue to be agressive in the face of a weapon, thier intent is established.

I think that is the right answer. The point I was hoping to make is that the goal of any armed conflict is to stop the aggression, not to protect the wallet or take a life. Their failure to back down is aggression. Hopefully drawing will end their aggression. Hopefully yelling will end their aggression. Hopefully firing will end their aggression. Your clear conscience & likely your freedom depend on your ability to show that what you did was necessary to get them to STOP, it was NOT your intent to get them to die. If that is the result, it must be because that was the physical consequence of their refusal to back down.

 

[glockman19]

Scenario:

Part 1---Dark, empty parking lot. Two 17 year old bangers demand your wallet. They are not brandishing weapons, but they are intimidating, street tough kids and you do not know if they are armed or not. You have $300 in the wallet, pictures of the kids, credit cards & your CHL. Under your jacket you have a C&L 1911 in an open top high ride. Do you draw?

Part 2---You draw, but they still demand the wallet, taunting that you would not shoot them over a wallet. Do you give them the wallet & see if they retreat, or do you hold your ground and fire to protect your property?

Part 1---Do you draw? YES

Part 2---Do you give them the wallet & see if they retreat? or do you hold your ground and fire to protect your property?

I DO NOT hand over my wallet. I DO defend myself. If the predator gets to close he goes down. Biggest guy get's shot first, If other guy doesn't do an immediate U-turn, he get's it next. Call 911 and wait to make report

 

[CoRoMo]

I'd rather walk away than to be judged by twelve.

 

[expvideo]

I'd rather walk away than to be judged by twelve.

I think that the basis of the scenario is that you can't retreat. Of course retreat is the first choice over engaging the muggers, and I think we can all agree on that.

 

[AKElroy]

Personally, If I was in your shoes, I would have tried to get to my car as fast as possible. If they continued to follow me or assaulted me then I would have no choice but to use deadly force.

Another thing, if you were to run around in the parking lot, most of them will have some kind of video taping devices around, so it will probably show you trying to get away, IE doing everything you could have done. Which will be better if the proverbial crap hits the fan, legally speaking.

A car is worth more than a wallet, and up to now they have no idea which one is mine. Second, I am not about to give up my tactical advantage by getting chased by 2 kids less than half my age. If my only shot at getting them to stop is to begin firing backwards from a flat run I am likely history. How long do you think this scenario would take? "Dude--fork over the wallet! Draw, step back, STOP OR I WILL SHOOT! STOP!, Step back---Now your at the point of making a decision, and I doubt 1.5 seconds have ticked off the clock before you MUST act. Forget the car, forget the cell phone. I am surprised that I did not see any posts for a less than lethal wounding shot--- a knee or groin shot---I do not support it tactically, but I thought I would see the suggestion. By the way---I have seen a few posts from those carrying chamber empty, loaded mag. I may start a new thread challenging any notion that you would have the time or dexterity to rack that slide in this scenario.

 

[expvideo]

I may start a new thread challenging any notion that you would have the time or dexterity to rack that slide in this scenario.

Please don't do that. It's been discussed to death.

 

[AKElroy]

Quote:
#1 I would back away slowly, gun drawn, while telling them not to come towards you. If they do, shoot at a leg area. (That is if they are unarmed and you KNOW that).

#2 If they start to pull out weapons, while you have your gun drawn, you'd better start shooting for real because they are not messing around.
deacon8 is online now Report Post

You might want to talk to a lawyer about that.

You're setting yourself up for a big fall with those tactics.

You shoot, its deadly force. You intentionally try to only wound you are admitting deadly force was not justified in your mind.

I missed this post earlier---but agree with the reply from a legal standpoint. More importantly for me, center-mass shot placement is gun fighting 101 for a reason; A high stress encounter is going to make you a VERY bad shot; I don't care how good you think you are.

 

[azhunter122]

I would to tell them no and draw down on them. If they don't leave I will try to run. If the attempt to kill me I will stop them appropriately. However it costs more than $300 for a good lawyer, sleeping and anti depression meds. Right?

 

[crushbup]

At this point, a decoy (note: not fake) wallet would be a good idea. One wallet with cash, one wallet with credit cards, family pictures, etc.

Part 1:
Toss them the wallet with just cash. They try for more, they get lead.

Part 2:
If I've already drawn, and they haven't backed down, I'm in trouble. When I'm in that kind of trouble, I'll shoot.

 

[Harley Man]

My last commet on this Thread...First of all, and deep down we all know this....There is NO WAY of knowing what any of us would really do until we are actually in this sitution. Of course most of us have played this sitution over in our head probably a hundred times just in case we are actually confronted by these kinds of punks, and we all would like to think we would respond with the right moves.
I was in a simular sitution about 6 months ago, and let me tell you this moment got bad faster than I could believe was possible.
I was walking out of a convenience store, and a BIG guy was walking in, and I had a 45 ACP in a Shoulder Holster under my shirt I had opened so of course you couldn't see my piece but I could get to it. I hadn't given this guy, which oh by the way had a foot and 100 lbs on me, much throught. As I walked out the door he turned to me and said "you got a car"? At first I didn't know he was talking to me until I turned around and he was looking at me. I said I sure do. He said I need a ride just like that. I now am starting to think this seems odd at best. I told him I wasn't giving him a ride. He told me look dude you don't understand I have to be somewhere and I need a ride. Now he seem to get pissed off because I wouldn't give him a ride, and he started at me, a distance of about 10 - 12 feet. My mind was racing let me tell you. Like I said this happen so fast, like I'm sure most of them do!.......At this point I reached into my shirt got my hand on my 45 flew open my shirt and said I told you I'm not giving you a ride skippy. Not sure why I called him skippy. It just came out. He said well maybe someone else can give me a ride. This all took place within 2 1/2 minutes, and it seemed longer.
My point here is you have to be alert 100% of the time when your anywhere, and I consider myself that type of person, but this almost caught me completely off guard. Did I respond correctly that day...Not sure, but I do believe one more step by him and he would have been looking down the barrel of a 45!
As they use to say on "Hill Street Blues" everyone be carefull out there.
Proud Viet Nam Vet

 

[X-Rap]

The very best scenario is that 2 walk up and ask for your wallet (as far as a robbery) more likely is being hit first and having to make up ground. I don't think in the real world trying to scare criminals with slide racks, and shots to the air are viable tactics.
Waiting to be pushed or have other contact will also probably have bad results, I go along with those who say draw,take a few steps back to open some distance and if they close again fire as though your life was at stake. If this doesn't rise to the level you carry a gun for then perhaps you should go unarmed.
There are many variables as to age, size, of all involved but it is safe to say that the threat is real and so should the responce.

 

[poker88]

Quote:
Part 1 - yes I draw and then begin backing away

Part 2 - i'm pulling out a cell phone and calling 911. if they come after me at that point then i'm going to assume my life is in danger and shoot to stop

You are assuming they are respecting the pointed gun. It is not a hipnotic tool as the big screen suggests. Both hands on the gun, please.

I am not assuming that they are going to be hypnotized by my gun. Go back and reread part 2, if they advance when i'm holding the gun then i'm assuming that my life is in danger and I can defend it by shooting.

And i don't need both hands on the gun, i practice with both strong hand and weak hand with then understanding that there may come a time when i need to both hold the gun and call for help, or hold the gun and use a flashlight, or possibly have to shoot while i'm injured. you can't always assume that you'll have two hands available to shoot.

 

[IlikeSA]

You draw when you feel threatened by imminent use of force, that can be applied in an immediate or near immediate time. The thing is, with people like this...you may not see the third guy slipping up behind you.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

Maybe I'm cynical, but "Dead men don't tell tales." If you ask for my wallet in a dark parking lot I'm going to assume you are packing, especially if you got a buddy with you, you better hope I'm also carrying pepper spray. I usually carry pepper spray along with my snub .357 but don't always(I should start), if I have it and don't see they are armed I'm backing away while hosing them down with the eight foot long by three feet wide (at four feet) thick mist spray of tear gas and pepper spray mix with black light identifier, with my snubby in my oppossite hand.

If I don't have my pepper spray, my lawyer will be explaining to the police that the two men told me that we were going to go for a ride, and if I didn't cooperate they were going to (some foul urban assembling of quasi-english) with either knives or guns. Of course always be mindful of witnesses.

Remember, "live by the sword, die by the sword", when these two scumbags decided to play with their lives they accepted the consequences no matter how much their crying mothers might scream at their funeral "they were turning their lives around." I get in a car, I accpet I might be killed in a car accident. I pull the trigger on a gun at the range, I accpet it might malfunction and destroy my hands. These two want to prey on good folk, they accept the good folk might put them six feet under.

Florida has a bundles of stare decisis (precedent) as explained to me by criminal attorneys and sheriff deputies that if you lawfully draw a gun in self-defense and the parties continue to approach you, you have the right to reasonably assume they are going to kill you with your own gun. Granted I haven't verified any of that and I'm not giving legal advice because I'm not an attorney, so I'm not going to use that.

A man puts his hand in his pants and says he's going to kill you when he pulls his gun out, is it reasonable for you to assume he's got a gun and is going to shoot you, don't know. Of course his hand might get moved out of his pants when you attempt to render first aid after you shoot them in the chest multiple times (a double tap to the high center of the chest just above the sternum).

I just assume all criminal scum that want to prey on innocent people want to die, they are unhappy with their existence, and are better off returning to Nirvana. Life is just simpler that way. My father who has been forced to take two men's lives outside of Vietnam (killed a few VC during 'Nam) sleeps quiet and comfortably with that understanding (sleeps like a peaceful quiet log). My cousin who had to shoot a man robbing his restaraunt while he had one of his employees by the neck and was leading her to the back room, sleeps peacefully (he and I have shared hotel rooms since). I don't feel bad about killing an ant when it's trying to bite me, why care about scum that might try to kill me. How can I know what they are thinking. Plenty of murders start out as robberies.

 

[dobrzemetal]

To the guy who posted above, I know what you mean when you say if people are threating you, you have to assume that they are armed and have to act accordingly. However, If you were to kill both of them there could be some major legal issues. Who's to say they were just asking you for money and you blew them away, and the homicide detective finds they had no weapons and no prior criminal history?

 

[Grassman]

I pull my weapon, any further action is up to them.

 

[doorman]

I hope everyone has done some training with these senarios. Good luck making your brain work when adrenalin and stress are causing the short circuit. This is why solders rountinely train, so they do not have to think.

Haven't you ever herd a soldier being interviewed after the fire fight.
"The training kicked in."

Good luck to all.

 

[GregGry]

To defend yourself in court, you must prove you reasonably believed that they could kill you or do you serious physical harm. aka

Ability means that the other person has the power to kill or to cripple you.

Opportunity means that the circumstances are such that the other person would be able to use his ability against you.

Jeopardy means that the other person's actions or words provide you with a reasonably-perceived belief that he intends to kill you or cripple you.

Ability= Two on one=present
Opportunity= They are presumably near you.=Present
Jeapardy= They stated their intent to take your wallet.=Present

Give an extra warning if you have time, if they don't back off immediately, engage them.

Actually if you end up in court you have to convince a jury that a reasonable person would believe that they would be in danger of death or great bodily harm. It doesn't matter what a person thinks when it comes to proving they are justified, what matters are the facts leading up to a person pulling the trigger.

A more clear version of the system you posted is weapon, intent, delivery system.

Weapon, what do they have that can cause you harm?

Intent, are they handling a firearm at a gun store (no intent to harm you) or do they have a knife and they are saying they will cut you?

Delivery system: Do they actually have a way of delivering the force? A person with a knife that says they are going to cut you, thats standing 300 meters away doesn't have a delivery system. A person with a pistol at 50 yards away does.

When you enter this situation into the weapon, intent, delivery system model, this is what you get:

Weapon: Fists

Intent: Their statements show intent

Delivery system: They are close enough with fists that they could cause you harm.

The question comes could they reasonably cause you death or great bodily harm with just their fists? If your a crippled person, you have more weight then if your in good shape and have some fighting training.

There are disparity of force possibilities here. First its 2 vs 1, which puts the 2 at an advantage. Second the age of the two people vs you could be a factor as young kids can run further and faster. Third possibility to escape might be a problem depending on the location and whats around you. Given the situation in many states you would not be able to pull the trigger unless you have disparity of force in your favor. Given just the details there really isn't enough to warrant deadly force in most states. There could be 100 situations that are just like the one posted, and each one might be completely different depending on minute variables when it comes to using deadly force. If one person had his hand behind his back or in his pocket, that can change things vs seeing empty fists. If you can't outrun them, nobody is around to help, and their comments suggest that your likely to be beat up even if you give them a wallet, things would be different. The problem with these scenarios is they are not realistic in the fact that there are little to no details. The details on how the 2 criminals were acting as far as body language goes is absent mostly. Much like people say 90% of communication is how you say something and not the words chosen.

A couple very serious things everyone on here needs to understand:

You can't use deadly force on someone who does nothing other then disobey orders. If you draw a gun and tell someone to stay back, yet they continue to advance, the fact they aren't listening doesn't give you justification to use deadly force. Other factors such as them having a knife, having a crowbar, and other factors are what are important. Them coming closer could provide them a delivery system for the weapon they have, which could change things (aka the fact they are closing distance and thus could actually put you at a reasonable risk of death or great bodily harm is legit, the fact they aren't listening isn't) Absent of other factors, failure to obey orders is NOT a valid justification to shoot on its own, and it does NOT fulfill any requirements states have for actions that can be defended against with deadly force

Also, yes most states laws require someone to be at a reasonable risk of death or bodily harm before a person can use deadly force. This means that when your dealing with unarmed people it becomes a very slippery slope. Thats were disparity of force factors are very important, because they are about the only things that will save you. If the perp's capability of generating force that could reasonably cause death or great bodily harm is non existent, you have a problem using deadly force. In most states deadly force is legally allowed to be used to combat potentially deadly force/great bodily harm threats only. If you aren't at risk of death or great bodily harm (Great bodily harm varies from state to state, however its a lot more then just a broken nose) then you better not shoot or you will likely be found guilty.

 

[CountGlockula]

I'd use my ninja skills.

Seriously, go take a CCW CHL course.

 

[Rob P.]

Situation #1: No I don't "draw." I have my hand on my weapon but it remains holstered. I DO tell them to stop and NO, I WON'T GIVE YOU MY MONEY! while taking a step back. If I have pepper spray I will use it instead without doing any of the above and leave while they are puking and choking. Then call 911 when safely away from the area.

Situation #2: Yes, I shoot after trying to retreat. I don't have a duty to retreat in California but if I can safely do so I will try that rather than escalate the situation. I will NOT endanger myself by running but I will try to escape rather than fight.

Remember, it's self DEfense not self OFfense. Those in this type of situation MUST make sure that this is clear to anyone reviewing the events from witness testimony.

#1 I would back away slowly, gun drawn, while telling them not to come towards you. If they do, shoot at a leg area. (That is if they are unarmed and you KNOW that).

#2 If they start to pull out weapons, while you have your gun drawn, you'd better start shooting for real because they are not messing around.
deacon8 is online now Report Post

You might want to talk to a lawyer about that.

You're setting yourself up for a big fall with those tactics.

You shoot, its deadly force. You intentionally try to only wound you are admitting deadly force was not justified in your mind.

+1

Secondly, if you're only shooting to wound, then you aren't sure that you can actually shoot or do what is necessary to stop the threat. If that's the case, don't carry because you are a bigger danger to yourself than the 2 punks in the scenario.

This exercise has reminded me that I need to get another can of P-spray.

 

[Kleanbore]

Great post, GreGry!

I would add that the threat must be imminent, and that in most states, retreat must come before deadly force if it can be done safely.

 

[GregGry]

I know what you mean when you say if people are threating you, you have to assume that they are armed and have to act accordingly

Here is the thing that matters. You have to base your decision on pulling the trigger on the facts presented, not on the fact you thought they are armed. Reason? When your in court and your asked "why did you pull the trigger" and you say, because you thought they were armed, your in trouble. You are trying to justify using deadly force with a possibility that you don't have proof of. Even if they did have a gun, the gun wont be coming into evidence to defend you because its existence was not not known to you other then as a possibility. A perp could have 20 knives, 10 guns, a howitzer and a pocket nuke, yet none of it will come into evidence unless you saw it or had reason to believe they had such things (And by reason I don't mean statistics that bad guys are armed, reason being that they showed signs that they were armed/said things that would suggest they are armed).

Don't confuse what I have said for me saying you can't pull the trigger unless you absolutely see a firearm, knife, etc. If a person says I am going to shoot you if you don't give me your wallet, and reaches in their pocket where you see a bulge, by all means you don't have to wait to see if they are for real.

I will say it again and put it in bold red so it is hopefully not missed.

You have to base your choice on pulling the trigger on the FACTS leading up to pulling the trigger and not on possibilities that don't apply

Its ok to prepare yourself that anyone that might come up to you will be armed, its a logical idea that is likely true. Its ok to think that people are more skilled then you when it comes to martial arts. Its ok to think that people could easily catchup to you if you try to run. However all of these things do NOT provide justification for you to shoot someone. If statically 99% of criminals are armed, that doesn't matter unless you saw a weapon or the verbal or physical signs suggested they are. Your court case is not going to be based on if statistics show that they were armed and that they could have used the weapon they statistically had to kill you. Its based on your testimony and the testimony of others. Testimony and other actual evidence that is collected are the facts that jury's will be hearing, and what they will be using to decide your fate. Shooting someone because of possibilities (that you had no proof of) is asking to be convicted of murder. Rightfully so since I wouldn't want someone to be justified in shooting someone because of what they thought, regardless of the facts.

 

[GregGry]

Secondly, if you're only shooting to wound, then you aren't sure that you can actually shoot or do what is necessary to stop the threat. If that's the case, don't carry because you are a bigger danger to yourself than the 2 punks in the scenario.

Couple extra notes:

There is no shoot to wound. When you pull the trigger you used deadly force in the eyes of the law. The law doesn't make an exception to the deadly prefix of deadly force based on your intent.

Second, some have talked about warning shots. There is no such thing. To a bad guy, by standers, or anyone else a gunshot is a gunshot. Gunshots don't scream "Warning shot" when you are shooting as a warning. Bystanders will hear the shot and figure you just shot at someone. The bad guy will think your a bad shot if they aren't hit after you pull the trigger. There is no use for warning shots in the use of force. If anything it takes a situation where you have your gun out and couldn't justifiably shoot them, and makes it a step worse because witnesses will testify that you took a shot at the person. The evidence will back up that you didn't have the justification to use deadly force. Even if the person isn't hit and runs away, you could be charged for discharging a firearm or even worse.

 

[Tamlin]

You know, I've thought about this scenario a lot. Crazy things go through your mind when you replay "what-ifs" in your head. Part 1: Yes, I draw. Part 2: (they think I'm bluffing and won't shoot them) - here's where you can have some fun. Because - I'M holding the gun and am capable and willing to pull the trigger if need be. Do I want to? No. So what to do . . . start shaking your head like you have a nervous tick . . . start laughing in short bursts (hehe...hehe....hehe.....) Scream at the top of your lungs OOOOOWWWWWWW! and say "C'mon Beeyatch! Make my day!" Then start dancing around, alternating pointing your barrel at each of their heads. Keep laughing, but this time in a more demonic way. A good impression of "Warriors . . . Come Out to Play . . ." should be just enough to convince them that you just escaped from the state hospital and are capable of ANYTHING at this moment. If they don't back away, I'd advance, licking my lips the whole time, trying to do my best Hannibal Lecter impersonation. If they still don't back away, then you can back away, laughing all the way, and they will be standing there not knowing what to do or think!

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

PFFFFT, I can't believe I forgot about the pepper spray option.


I usually carry a 4 oz bottle of saber red, so I'd just fog up their lives while running away.