Why Can't I Shoot Handguns Well?

[Jackal]

So...Many...Responses....

Too bad this thread can't become a sticky. This much handgun shooting info is very hard to find online, especially all in one place. I'm gonna try to sneak in some shooting time today, my 586 needs feeding. I'm currently under the impression that I'm shooting revolvers more accurately than autos. Must be the trigger quality.

EDIT: Just shot 28rds of .38spl through my 586. Why 28? Because thats all I have left, and it was "American" brand ammo . Well, i'm getting better thanks to all the super info. This was from 30ft and 6 of these shots were using DA. Its so nice to hit paper. P.S. Yes, that is a re-used target underneath the new sticky dot.

 

[greener]

First Class Sergeant, that's a nasty comment about officers. Problem is that it is often true. Some of my range experience with officers were the stuff of legend and disbelief. The half-colonel who fired one down range and the next one an over-the-shoulder shot into the range tower. Since I wasn't getting combat pay, it was either "off my range" or I get the right to shoot back. Amazing what a mere captain can do when he gets really PO'd. I also had a close shaving relationship with a Bn CDR who insisted that his officers qualify with something other than Pencil, M2. Wish I had filmed that very long day. They all managed to, but I wasn't very popular for a while.

Great series of posts and it looks like Jackel picked up some tips. Enjoyed reading them and plan to print a few. I took a long hiatus from shooting and discovered that age, eyes and bifocals can make some real changes in 15-20 years. Also found some bad habits I don't remember having back then. I restarted with .22's and they have made the return much easier.

 

[wildburp]

wild fire

Sounds like a police officer I knew years ago in Oregon. He could take a six shot revolver into the indoor basement range and make everyone duck. For some reason, he could not hit any target down range, but could spray the walls, floor and ceiling with lead. I am not kidding; he was apparently afraid of guns - he just closed his eyes and hoped to hit something. So, they made him a detective. Again - not kidding, but I won't say where and when.

wb

 

[wildburp]

Well

why can't you shoot hand guns? I have not read even one of the posted previous threads, many of which probably contain a great deal of gun powder wisdom, seldom found on today's blacktop praries.

My advise - don't start with bull's eyes, just get up close and personal with a sillouette target. After all, the purpose of firearms is to defend yourself, so concentrate on pointing at and shooting the target - watch the holes appear, and you'll gain confidence. Wear quality eye and ear protection. Once you can hit the x-ring, try other targets if you want, but don't forget how to kill bad people effectively. That's what the handgun is for; that and having fun shooting - enjoy!

 

[Sport45]

You're doing good. Don't move the target out any farther until you can get all the shots in the 3" circle. I started this way at 3yds about 5 years ago. I'm now at 10 yards and about to move up to 15. (I may be a slow learner, but it's been fun!)

I've found that a 3" group at 10 yards doesn't open to a 6" group at 20. For me, a 3" at 10 opens to a 6 out of 10 on letter-size paper at 20

 

[bdutton]

cbxx wrote:

Accurate shooting
<snip>
3. Squeeze the trigger with the end of your finger not the bend in your finger.
Line your arm up with you shooting eye unless you are shooting with eyes open.
It will come just relax, do not tense up, fire one shot at a time, try different things until you figure out what you might be doing wrong, then correct it, one thing at a time.

It will work

The 7 time national champion of Bullseye showed me his finger placement in between the first and second pad. His reason (and subsequently mine) was that in different conditions (hot/cold/humid/dry/hungry/full/tired etc...) the pad of the finger 'feels different' because it has extra meat in it. On a warm day it might be mushy and a cold day it might have less feel. He found that there is less meat between the skin and bone to get in the way and hence give a more consistent and controlled trigger pull.

 

[Feanaro]

I'm not a great shooter but I do believe that moving your finger out a little bit and using the pad/tip of the finger will help, Jackal. It helped a lot with mine. If you use the joint, you tend to push the firearm sideways.

 

[Radjxf]

This isn't terribly helpful, but when I dryfire practice I do a good job with sight alignment and trigger pull. However, with loaded rounds I inevitably develop the flinch quickly.
One thing very hard for me to break is the bad habit of overlapping the strong and weak hand thumbs. I've been trying the "thumbs pointing to the target" grip that everyone raves about, but it's very uncomfortable and seems I don't have a very good grip on the weapon. Good luck and keep at it, I'm slowly improving as well.

 

[docdelete]

handgun accuracy

In response to the individual who is having trouble with handgun accuracy, one thing that I have found out is knowing which eye is dominant. My son is right handed but he shoots bow left handed and long gun left handed. At the shooting range he has problems with handguns. To find out , he is left eye dominant. After adjusting the hand gun toward the left eye , he started shooting better.

 

[normbal]

I don't know what other calibers you've shot, but let me suggest the following:

1 - Dry fire.
- you can do this by picking out a target, getting a good sight picture and dry firing from DA and SA, over and over and freaking over again until you've ingrained the mechanics into your brain and overwritten any bad programs there. Keep in mind it takes at least 5,000 repetitions to develop "muscle memory" for most hand-eye coordinated movements.
-or, if/while watching TV, have an EMPTY gun in your lap and every time you see the letter "O" pick up the gun, aim, and fire. Helps with timing, sight picture, acquiring targets and further development of overall control.
- Follow through. The shot isn't over until there's a hole in the target. Breathe, Aim, Squeeze, shoot. Your trigger-sear break should ALWAYS be a surpise in timed fire. Sight picture, sight picture, sight picture, squeeze, sight picture, squeeze, sight picture, squeeze BANG! With time that will become faster and faster until you're shooting like Jerry Miculek. Don't drop your grip or lose track of the front sight during recoil. With time you'll stay on target for follow up shots.

2 - Ball and Dummy. Play with a friend. Load four rounds in 6 cylinders, any pattern, maybe three rounds, or two, or one, all or none. Point is to extinguish all anticipation of the shot and to see if you're instinctively anticipating recoil by pushing the muzzle down or pushing the gun to the side with your finger when you fire.

3 - Buy a .22 LR revolver, shoot LOTS of .22 ammo until you can shoot without blinking or flinching and your groups turn into 1 inch patches at 7 yards (Tueller drill distance) then try a .38 with standard loads for a while. If your group starts to scatter or you start flinching, go back to the .22 LR revolver.

4 - Look into eBay for a Tokyo Marui gas gun, revolver or SA pistol, doesn't matter. Nearly imperceptible recoil, ergonomics virtually identical to the gun it's copied after, .2 gm 6mm pellet will penetrate cardboard boxes at 10 feet and they're accurate. You can develop some GREAT habits with these guns and I use them for teaching newbies and women shooters especially.

5 - GRIP. You should be keeping your grip solid between shots with your shooting/dominant hand. Thumb hammer back with NON-dominant hand if cocking into SA. Heel of palm of non-dominant hand should be in line with the grip, fingers wrapped around dominant hand and pressure from both hands equal in a push-pull fashion.

That's it for starters.

-Norm
NRA certified instructor, Pistol, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer, since 1999.

Let us know how it works out for you.

 

[Wedge]

I have only been shooting handguns for a few years. When I first started getting anything resembling a group at anything greater than 25' was a challege. Eventually I decided to just move on in to 10' and shoot from there.

I try to always have a goal when I am shooting. So when I started out and was shooting at around 3 yards I wanted to get to the point where all of my shots were on top of each other. Then I moved to 7 yards and tried to keep 100% of my shots in a 5" circle. Now I am working on keeping all of my shots at 15 yards in a 5" circle. Once I can do that I'll move out to 25 yards.

Basically setting a goal and once meeting my goal setting a new goal to push myself.

 

[wildburp]

I don't know where you live, and the following may be impractical. Being a country boy, that's where I learned to shoot. If you can, get out of the controlled range environment (after the 4 basic rules of firearms safety are indelibly branded on your cerebral cortex) and practice outside. If you could just line up some cans and bottles on a log, point, shoot, and have fun, you would not be bothered by anticipating recoil, wild rabid skunks that are invading city shooting ranges, or your peers and range masters. Noise is not a problem in the country; most of of the noise soars away, and the rest can be handled very effectively by stuffing wild flowers in your ears, or some other form of natural ear protection. Unfortunately, I developed this technique only after many years and hundreds of hours of gunfire at close hand. Huh? What did you say?

Bottom Line: Relax, and learn that bullets go where you point and fire the gun, not where you think you are aiming. After that, it's just plain fun exploding water filled milk cartons, dead batteries, outdated television sets, and useless relatives (unless they line up the useless junk for you). You can tell I am just kidding, right?

Once you can see where the lead is flying, you will be amazed how easy it is to direct sustained, continuous rapid fire at a stationary target, or lead a moving target. Develope a rythimic rocking motion to accept recoil and launch the next shot while your arm descends with your gaze focused over the barrel at the target. It is so much fun!

You are a human tank with a tiny cannon. You've seen films of tanks running over rough terrain while the cannon stays on target? Just don't try running and shooting - leave that to the stunt persons.

Be one with the gun .. oh, I can't go, or I'll have to write a book. Shooting pistols and rifles is just plain fun, unless your being paid (in combat)

wb

 

[MaterDei]

This is a really nice thread with lots of good advice. No offense SFC but this is a load of crock.

The Officer Corps in the Army never used to let the enlisted guys watch them qualify because they had so much trouble trying to.

I spent 10 years in the Army (Infantry and Artillery) and though we sometimes qualified as a separate group we never did it out of view of the enlisted folks. In fact, with the exception of the range safety officer, the range was always run exclusively by enlisted folks from within our battalion.

We also ran our PT tests together and generally speaking the officers out shot and our PTed the enlisted folks.

 

[nemoaz]

>>not to be a jack*** but maybe youre one of those people who will never be a good pistol shot.

There's absolutely no person cannot learn to shoot well, assuming you have minimal hand/arm strength and sufficient vision. I've seen many, many people with absolutely no skills become proficient pistol shooters (5 ring from 25 barricade with a full power handgun under time pressure and from the holster) including urban/suburban males and females that begin quite afraid of the weapon. It's simply a matter of dedicating the time and concentrating on what you are doing. Getting instruction from someone who knows what he's doing is also important if you cannot figure out your problem.

Most of the advise here as been good. Trigger + front sight= 5 ring. But the handgun is a jealous bytch. You must not cheat or she will make you pay. Like anything else, start with the individual tasks, stance (isoceles or modified weaver, look in the mirror, completely locked arms for isoceles), then practice site picture. Like someone said, concentrate on the FRONT SIGHT only. Everything else is fuzzy. The practice squeezing the trigger, but just do that task. Train the hand and fingers without necessarily pointing the weapon and attempting to aim. A quarter drill, placing it on top the weapon and balancing it there while pulling the trigger, helps. Start with a quarter then go to a dime. Then try putting it all together. Concentrate on being very, very smooth. Smooth is accurate. Fast will come later. But smooth is fast too.

It's just a skill. It's not like trying to hit a Roger Clemens fastball. You CAN do it.

>>Jackal: you have a slew of comments and advice on this thread. Obviously you can't adhere to them all. If it is trigger control you will know because you shoot a rifle well. You will know if you need a .22 pistol or not.

Not many double action rifles out there. Some of the worst pistol shots are the military guys, who THINK they know how to shoot a pistol, but don't. You rifle background may help with a single action pistol, but not much else. Besides, many people THINK they know how to shoot a rifle, but don't.

>Here are some tidbits: Shoot with 1 hand

Why? Why would you train this way then have to relearn when you try to do something other than .22 target shooting? I would avoid this advise entirely. Two hands on the weapon, all the time unless one is injured. Learn one position, and learn it well. Worry about the target one handed crap later.

Throw that Army manual from the 30s in the trash. Actually, maybe there is something in there of value, but I stopped at the blade right one armed shooting crap. That's hopelessly outdated. Army guys weren't using that crap in the 80s.

 

[Plink]

I had shot pistols for many years and could never hit well with them either. When I finally decided to get serious about my handgun marksmanship, I bought a target grade .22 pistol and spent a lot of time with it, and a lot of time dry firing my other guns. Having a .22 lets you concentrate on form without recoil induced flinching intruding. It's also cheap enough to shoot 500-1000 rounds a week. Dry firing practice lets you train muscle memory and fine tune trigger, sight and breathing discipline. Basically, you need to practice, practice, practice, to untrain yourself from the bad habits that you've picked up and develop the sight and trigger discipline needed.

I will never be a top rated competitor with handguns, as I just don't have the talent, but I went from not being able to hit squat, to being able to hit pretty much anything I aim at and shoot tight groups, at surprisingly long distances too. I have since went on to hunt with handguns, shoot long distance silhuette and compete in a few local events. It's very satisfying, but it takes a lot of work and commitment, especially if you, like me, have picked up a lot of bad habits that need unlearned.

I still catch myself slipping now and then and anticipating the shot, jerking the trigger, etc. Whenever I do, I switch over to the .22 and work through it. When I'm in the zone again, I switch back to my bigger guns.

Best of luck to you!

 

[normbal]

Why Can't I Shoot Handguns Well?

----------------------------------------------------------------
The title pretty much sums it up. For some reason, I am totally pathetic when it comes to accurately shooting handguns. I own a S&W 586. Can I hit the same place twice, ever? Nope. This is at a range of about 20 yards. I have fired a Ruger P95 with the same results. I can rarely get my CZ-52 even on the paper, and let's not even get into how I do with my Kel-Tec P3AT. My problem isn't just with pistols I own, but also with most any I have tried. My groups at 20 yards look like buckshot patterns. Forget about 50 yard shots. I am lucky if I even hit the backstop at that distance. I have looked at the little circle/pie chart pistol shooting thing people are so fond of here on THR, but it doesnt help me at all. Funny thing is, my rifle shooting is often almost surgical. Surgical with irons or scope. With my Bushmaster or K31, I can usually cut nice 1 hole groups at 50yds with irons. So, whats wrong with me and handguns??? Its driving me crazy!
__________________


50, 20 yards?

I've watched Bob Munden hit kids' balloons at 200 to 300 yards with a .38 snubbie and Elmer Keith once whacked an antelope at 600 yards with a .44 but you need to start in close.

I mentioned Tueller, andd I honestly forget who he was, but it boils down to this:

Tueller figured THIS out: a man standing 7 yards away with a knife can close the distance to a police officer BEFORE the cop can get his service pistol out of the holster, on target, and shoot. Try this sometime, it's called (for obvious reasons) the Tueller drill. Someone stands 21 feet away from you and you use a plastic gun, squirtgun, or pistol FRAME in a holster with your hands occupied elsewhere he runs you down while yelling at you. Your job is to shoot him. You can't do it. I saw film once of an Aikido master disarming MPs in Japan shortly after WW2 from this distance and farther. Impressive.

Something like 90 percent of ALL police and civilian gunfights happen in close range (under 7 yards), they happen FAST (several seconds) and under poor lighting conditions. Few people actually use the sights in close quarters combat as they've trained. But it's worth training that way.

So, CLOSE in targets. Try 3 yards for starters. Of course, you could shoot from 3 INCHES and your groups would be about 0.1"

A second thought occurred to me after rereading your post(s). Find an instructor. NRA.org has links to firearms and personal protection instructors (I think I'm still there somewhere). Buy an hour or four of their time. I mentioned I assisted training 45 women at my club last year; typically I teach 2 to 6 a year in a ten hour course, about five of which are range time with various calibers over at least two days.

Stance, ergonomics, grip, sequence: Both eyes open, front sight, relax, front sight, squeeze, front sight, squeeze, BANG.

Other thing to keep in mind is ergonomics. The pistols you mentioned are fine guns, but the grips between them are radically different in width, length, circumference and front to back distance. Also, I own several CZ52s. That is one HUGE grip and a HOT round. 1600 fps? 9mm is typically around 1000, .45 around 830. I can't shoot a CZ52 for ****, it doesn't fit my hand. It's also why I don't shoot or own a Glock.


My favorite pistol to shoot is a pre-model 29 S&W 44 magnum (I own a couple). Dead accurate at 50 yrds. Powerful. Fun. Second, just for fun, is a CZ75.

When your pistol comes UP to your eye (Olympic .22 pistol shooters are trained to raise the gun slightly above line of sight then lower it to a proper sight picture), the sights should line up the same every time. This is as much a function of the gun's ergonomics as it is your technique. Really.

I've shot just about every model handgun made in the US (and many elsewhere) in the last century since I started shooting them around 1973, and MANY from the 19th century. There's lots of grip/frame differences out there. Go to an indoor range that rents handguns and try a few dozen (sometime other than when a group of security guards or cops are training to shoot badly - lessen your distractions) to see if you shoot one better than the other.

What I shoot the most are the following for this reason: K or N frame S&W revolvers, Colt 1911, Kimber CDP Ultra carry compact, CZ 75B, SIG 220 or 229 and HK P7M8. I've sold just about everything else I once owned for carrying. I keep a Beretta 92FS around because it's the first SA pistol I qualified on in the Army as an officer.

Find an instructor, tell him/her what you've told us and let him/her help you out. You'll be glad you did. Your ammo bill will go up and up and up.

But take it easy on yourself. Have a good time. Try some reactive targets instead of paper (painted steel, soda cans, skeet targets). You'll do okay.

-Norm

 

[rellascout]

I always think that a picture/video is worth a thousand words. Check out this video of Todd Jarrett. He quickly covers grip and stance.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4584332856867071363&q=handgun

I am glad that it was the indian not the arrow since I am buying Jackals CZ 52.

 

[goon]

Shooting a handgun is hard to learn how to do. It took me a WHOLE LOT of rounds through a bunch of different ones before I got any good at all. I am now somewhere between mediocre and good but I could fix that with practice. The skills seem to transfer between different guns and sort of stick with you after you learn them.
Be patient, keep working at it, and don't be too hard on yourself.

 

[ta4]

What kind of course was Mr. Jarrett teaching, sd or competition? Sometimes this subject is confusing to amateurs like myself. Amatures learn thumbs up, thumbs forward, square shoulders, angled shoulders, etc etc etc, all kinds of conflicting info.

 

[Hank Hunter]

With a revolver, try leaving spent rounds in the first and third cylinder. Give it a spin and close it. When the hammer falls on a spent cartridge you may detect an unknown flinch.

 

[normbal]

What Hank just described is called Ball and Dummy.

This is a good exercise, but not what you need right now.

I just noticed your post where you show the Orange dot target.

You're stringing laterally. It kind of looks like that smiley face Mel Gibson printed in that movie about "cop killer" teflon bullets.

Anyway. That's grip.

First, make sure the top of the rear grip strap is FIRMLY nested into the webspace (pocket) of your thumb and index finger. Get a FIRM grip w/ you trigger hand. The base of the other hand gets placed on the other side of the grip in the open space, the remaining fingers wrapped over those of the trigger hand. Don't put your non-trigger hand's index finger on the front of the trigger guard.

Second, you should be holding the gun with equal pressure with both hands. You can try increasing the pressure/grip from your left hand. That should tighten up the groups a bit.

Oh, and shoot closer in. It's a mind game thing. You'll make smaller groups and won't get as frustrated.

Post a pic of your next target.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Greener Quoted:

First Class Sergeant, that's a nasty comment about officers. Problem is that it is often true. Some of my range experience with officers were the stuff of legend and disbelief. The half-colonel who fired one down range and the next one an over-the-shoulder shot into the range tower. Since I wasn't getting combat pay, it was either "off my range" or I get the right to shoot back. Amazing what a mere captain can do when he gets really PO'd. I also had a close shaving relationship with a Bn CDR who insisted that his officers qualify with something other than Pencil, M2. Wish I had filmed that very long day. They all managed to, but I wasn't very popular for a while.

I apologise for the generalization for all officers, I shouldn't have done that. Alot of officers do not train to the level of the enlisted corps. They demand training of the enlisted corp. The Officer is in charge of running the range but it is the Noncommissioned officer who runs the range. I have personally seen just how poorly combat service support officers shoot as a whole, there are two standards theirs and ours and I know the difference. Officers are needed to manage the U.S. Army but they need the enlisted to put steel on target.
The Officers who train to excellence are the ones who personally take the time to do it.