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Would you pull your gun if someone was trying to fight you?

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joey93turbo

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Aug 12, 2003
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Portland, OR
I'm new and I'm getting my CCW soon so I'm just picturing certain situations so maybe I'm a bit more prepared if I'm ever in one myself.

Say you were chillin somewhere, maybe a public coffee house, maybe a private party, and a guy alot bigger than you is trying to fight you and he's serious about it, although he has no good reason. What would you guys do? Please explain your answers.
 
In that case, I would simply leave. I don't know the law in your state, in mine lethal force is only justified in a case where you believe your or another is in danger of death or imminent bodily harm. AZ law does not say that I must retreat, but common sence tells me that would be the thing to do. A CCW weapon should only be pulled as a last resort, the legal implications are severe if you make a mistake, from charges of brandishing, to assault with a deadly weapon and a civil suit afterwords. If you can saftly leave the area just do it and count your blessings. I advise you if you get your CCW to get some good training and to absolutly know the law.
 
Leaving would be my first choice but I've been it a situation before that as I got up to leave the guy punched me. Luckily a good friend of mine knocked him out.
 
Does the law in Oregon require you to retreat?

How much disparity is there in size between you and your assailant?

Can you honestly articulate that this person caused you to fear for your life by his assault? Would a reasonable man who is disinterested and sitting in the comfort and safety of the jury box believe you?

Does he have the means and will to carry out a lethal attack on you?

The laws vary quite a bit from state to state. Generally you have to be able to prove that you were in fear for your or another's life or that you or another were in danger of great bodily harm if you didn't use deadly force. Even if you don't end up shooting, you are using deadly force every time you present your weapon. In many circumstances the presentation of the weapon will be enough to deter an attacker, but you had better be prepared mentally, psychologically and legally to use it if it doesn't stop the assault against you.

Carrying a weapon doesn't give you the right not to back down from this bully. In fact it may compell you to. Any fight you get into is now a possible deadly force confrontation. There will be at least one gun in every situation you are involved in from now on.

Me, I'm letting the loudmouth have the coffee house. If he tries to block my retreat or physically attacks me and I have no lessor force options..then and only then do I contemplate the use of deadly force.

Jeff
 
See that's where it gets difficult. He's not trying to kill you, he just wants to beat you up. The thing is if you're gettin knocked around and your gun falls out then who knows what would happen. Around here someone watching the fight would most likely take it and run away. It's just the way people are around here (North Portland, Oregon).
 
Also, I was told that it's Oregon law that you're supposed to distance yourself 20 feet and tell the person you're going to have a potential problem with that you have a gun on your person and that somehow puts you further in the clear if something does happen. I don't know if that's true or not, just what I heard.
 
It's always good to use, at the minimum, a thumb-strap holster. That way if you have to use escalating force (fisticuffs), your weapon won't go for an unexpected trip.

You should always avail yourself of self-defense training in order to increase your options. If there is a disparity of force, a few well-practiced techniques can prevent the use of deadly force. Weapon retention techniques are also important, even if a grab-resistant holster is employed.

If you don't have the time to train in unarmed defense, I'd heartily suggest you avoid these kind of social gatherings. God forbid the prosecution can convince the jury that you were "looking for trouble."
 
A big guy wants to fight. I'm 53 yrs old.I'm past that "roll around on the floor" or "punch each others face in" time of my life. I've got a heart valve problem, my knees are in bad condition and coupled with the heart valve, I can't run 150 yds. Also, in the back of my mind I remember two occasions of men being beaten to death(locally), so...you're darn right I would fear for my life. Just leave me be...we'll both get up and go to work in the morning. But thats just me. :D
Mark.
 
Joey --

You may not legally use your weapon in self defense unless
  • you reasonably believe that there is an
  • immanent,
  • otherwise unavoidable
  • risk of grave bodily harm or death
  • to the innocent.
That is -- the risk must be immediate, about to happen right this moment (getting told he'll kill you tomorrow doesn't count).

The risk must be otherwise unavoidable -- if you can run away instead, you should do that (except, I think, Oregon has a castle defense meaning that if it happens in your own home you can fight without having to retreat. But in a public place such as a bar, you'd durn well better leave instead of fighting...)

The risk must be of death or severe bodily harm (that is, an injury that would leave lifelong crippling effects). In order for a reasonable man to believe that you are at such risk, disparity of force must be present -- that is, there must be more than one attacker, or the assailant must be very much bigger, stronger, younger than you are, or if you were crippled in some fashion and he healthy in appearance, or if you were female and he male. Or (duh) if he were armed with a deadly weapon, such as a gun, knife, beer bottle, etc. Basically anything that makes it a radically unfair fight and would cause a bystander to reasonably believe that you were about to get killed would qualify.

And the risk must be to the innocent -- that is, to someone who hasn't egged it on or deserved it in some fashion. If you've exchanged looks and words with the man, or if you followed him out into the alleyway, you aren't innocent.

Hope that helps. Also, I'd suggest you get a bit more training, especially in a class where you can ask such questions face to face. There are FREE classes at FAS (http://www.firearmsacademy.com/free.htm), about 2 hours up the road from you. They cover the OR and WA laws. (fair disclosure -- these folks are dear friends of mine and I sometimes do volunteer work for them... I'm not on their payroll, though)

pax

A committment to avoidance, deescalation and deterrence is your number one option for personal security. -- Andy Stanford
 
Dude thanks for that link, that's awesome.

Do you guys believe that if you pull your gun you have to use it? I've heard some people say that and that seems a little extreme to me. Seems like most bullies would back off if you just told them or showed them you had the gun. Just getting beat up isn't a reason to pull the gun in my opinion, and I'm sure it wouldn't be in the opinion of a jury either. I wasn't really talking about pulling the gun and shooting the guy, just pulling it, showing him, or telling him, then telling him to back off. That would be enough to scare away 90% of the thugs around here. Is pulling it just as bad as shooting it?
 
Do you guys believe that if you pull your gun you have to use it?
Click to expand...
Two answers to that -- one legal and the other tactical.

Legally speaking, if you pull it and point it at someone, that could be prosecuted as an assault if you aren't justified in using deadly force against them. If you are justified in using deadly force, then obviously pointing the gun at them wouldn't be a problem.

Tactically speaking, if you pull your gun and don't intend to use it, your body language will convey that to the other person. This could lead to extremely bad consequences, including your own death or dismemberment.

What I'm saying is that you don't want to pull your gun unless you don't mind shooting it. I'm not saying that if you pull it, you must shoot -- just that you must have determined, in your own mind, that you will pull the trigger without any hesitation if it becomes necessary.

Anything less than that could be setting you up for a world of legal and physical hurt.

pax
 
Like everything else, there is no one rule that will cover all situations. I would never present a weapon if the criteria for using it hadn't been met. If the situation de-escalates from there...great. But if it doesn't you need to be prepared to use it. As a peace officer, I am often in a position to point my weapon at a subject I don't immediately intend to shoot, i.e. a felony arrest in order to immediately gain the upper hand and discourage any resistance. In most states a private citizen doesn't have that ability. It is even a crime in some jurisdictions or grounds to have your CCW revoked. A private citizen has to wait until a deadly force situation presents itself.

If there is a great disparity in size and you can articulate in court that you were in fear for your life or that you'd receive great bodily harm, you can pull your weapon. If the assailant isn't conducting himself well and you want to display your weapon to discourage him, you will most likely be in trouble.

Carrying a weapon is an awesome responsibility. you can never look at your conduct in most situations the same way again. It will require an entirely new mindset. It's best not to go to places where a bully may attack you. Remember, there will always be at least one firearm involved in any altercation you get into. The one you brought. You don't want to lose control of it and you don't want to have to use it. The best way to deal with a conflict is to avoid it. If you have a temper and would like to stand up to the bully, then maybe you don't need to carry a firearm. IF you think that the mere possession of a firearm will be the magic talisman that takes you through all kinds of bad situations, maybe you need to re-evaluate why you want a CCW.

Telling the bad guy you have a gun, may only escalate the situation. A threat is only viable as a threat if the other party believe in his heart of hearts that you will truly carry it out. So you don't want others to know you are carrying. Presenting your weapon may escalate the situation to the point you have to use it. You need to wait until all the conditions for use of deadly force are met, then present your weapon...if it de-escalates at that point great. If it doesn't and you have to shoot, you are in a much better legal position. Remember if you point your weapon at someone, you had better be ready to face all the legal and moral consequences of that person losing their life by your hand. You take responsibility for this other life the second you point your weapon at the person.

Jeff
 
-Pick a new coffee shop, stay out of bars.
-Learn how to fight.
-Never respond to verbal comments from people looking to fight, don't even look at them.
 
There are alot of good posts here. However I think it has been missed that we can all carry other weapons as well. The gun doesnt have to be your only means of defense. I personally like kubatons, cains, etc. If used right these can be very helpful. Surefire flashlights are also good to buy time for a retreat as are pepper sprays. My feeling is that I am retreating and I dont want to get rolling around with this guy with a gun on me. Retreat & Retention is my main focus at this point.

Perhaps a statement like... "I am concealed carry, and I am carrying a gun. I am not going to let you incapacitate me and get it." Now you have changed the dynamic of the assault. If he continues to advance on you, I dont know but perhaps from a legal standpoint you have changed the situation a little. Now you have the defense of saying that "He knew I was armed and I was retreating and not a threat, but I was not going to let him gain access to this weapon." Would this effect a jury or the law? I havent heard of anything like this. Have the legal waters been tested this way? Like Jeff mentioned earlier in this thread this may be a bad thing. I dont know, but its worth thinking about perhaps. Does anyone have any ideas about this?

The safest thing is to have some other less than lethal force to bring to bear on him like I said in the first paragraph. My second paragraph is purely out of curiosity.
 
i tend to think i would act normally, if not a bit more passive then normal, but not too especially differently.

in other words, if i was forced into a fight, which i normally would have to be pretty forced to get into a fight, then i would fight. the last time this happened to me was as a medic. before that, was in 8th grade.

if the fight turned malicious, then i'd be screwed. but unless it gets obviously malicious i don't have a good standing to pull a gun, and i wouldn't want to. a broken nose and bruised chest and scuffed knee is alot different than a malicious attempt to maim cripple or kill you.

i reiterate though, that i would have to be forced into a fight. forced.

it's different with thugs with knives in a back alley, or robbers, or such.

we must always be prepared to fight with all means possible. that means hands, feet, knives, and firearms; even when a firearm is the most appropriate force to use, it may not be usable at that instant. always be prepared for any type of fight. use your best judgement when you do have to fight. that's the best you can do.
 
In my CCW class it was stated very plainly that "In the state of Tennessee a fight that gets you a broken nose is not considered deadly force and would not fall under the guide lines for use of deadly force for self defince". It also states that if such assailant is willding some inanimate object (baseball bat, etc ) that can cause serious bodily harm or death then it falls under self defince. but their is aslo a catch to that. In order for it to be considered sefl defince he has to be in range with said object to be able to strike me or has attemted to strike me. If the guy pulls a bat and never gets withen strikeing range (stays on his side of the room) I can not shot him and say it was self-defince. Most likely I would try to leave the area to avoid putting my-self into that problem. Now if he followes that changes all the rules !! By retreating in TN by law you are tring to abandon the situation and if the person gives chace I am free and clear. Sorry if that went a little long :D
 
In my experience this type of situation can be taken care of through awareness, then verbal judo/Jedi mind tricks, Nike-Fu, non-leathal force, then as an absolute last resort (only when it meets pax's criteria): leathal force. Also, don't give people a reason to want to beat the hell outta you. That means, don't run your mouth about people, hit on people's girlfriend's if you can avoid it, etc. And like if someone tries to escalate, just be very calm and ignore them.

Being a college kid, I see a decent amount of people at bars wanting to throw down. For example, I was at the world's famous Harry's Chocolate Shop bar on campus. It was my good friend Eric, his date, my wife, and I. Eric is big into weightlifting so he is a bigger looking guy and I'm no daisy myself. So anyway, we were standing and then a table opened up. There wasn't even a napkin left on the table. We all sit down and about five minutes later some guy comes up and said, "I want my table back." Verbal judo time...I told him that he could have it back and I get up, pull the chair out for him, and step around to his rear. Of course since Eric is bigger than me, the dolt just kept staring at him. I'm standing behind him (the guy is very stupid for letting me stand directly behind him :rolleyes: ) and he reiterates that he wants his table back. My wife pulls out a Jedi Mind Trick and said, "You don't want this table." He said, "I don't want this table." I just stood there with a :eek: on my face because he was so compliant with my wife's command. Then, he just turned around and left. The moral of the story is that good verbal judo and body language saved the day. Had he actually tried to go after Eric, I probably would have grabbed him by the belt and threw him on the floor while yelling for the bouncers.
 
I also carry a VERY small can of FOX Labs OC spray for this type of occasion... It is also good for a someone that is stealing or vandalizing something, can't shoot them, but I can spray them!! Now I have 2 choices of what I can use. If the other is (at least as far as I know) unarmed, and I am truly not in fear of my life (yet anyway), the spray will come out first (and hand on the gun just in case).
 
Joey,

Keep in mind the force continium.

If he's just wanting to pound on someone and not wanting to kill them then that may not justify the use of deadly force.

Personally, if I was in the situation you laid out, I'd pull out my can of Fox OC and paint him like a fence. When he's rolling around on the ground slinging snot and tears I'd leave the area.

If he walks through a stream of Fox and grins at you, then things may get serious.

Just my $0.02

Semper Fi
 
Jeff White said:

Me, I'm letting the loudmouth have the coffee house. If he tries to block my retreat or physically attacks me and I have no lessor force options..then and only then do I contemplate the use of deadly force.
Click to expand...

Even then, one has the option to draw but not USE the weapon.
 
carrying a weapon with an ego is a bad thing. you have to force yourself to be the 'wussy' in verbal confrontations. be willing to back down, concede, and give in.
most of the time the person staring you down just wants the appearance that he/she has won. there is no shame in giving up, so long as it de-escalates the situation. you no longer have the comfort of fighting for your honor alone. someone insults you, thank them and bid them a good day. someone insults your mother, let it slide off your back.

now i dont know what kind of coffee shops you go to, but the ones i've been in never have meatheads looking to fight over spilled cream. and i rarely to the bars anymore, its not worth it, being around drunks and a-holes.
when you have your weapon, you should feel its suddenly "safe" to go into areas you wouldnt go if you were unarmed.
 
When he starts turning all red, sentences become one word and not really listening to anything you say, it's pepper spray time.
 
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